Dealing with a Deep Masochist

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EmeraldSlave2 -> Dealing with a Deep Masochist (7/11/2005 9:59:38 AM)
If I had a single selfish wish for myself it would be to be turned instantly into the perfect top for my boyfriend. We are vanilla in terms of relationship with eachother, but often top and bottom eachother in scenes. We are extremely different bottoms when it comes to pain. I am not a masochist. I don't get endorphin rushes, I don't convert pain into pleasure and I don't get into subspace from pain. I love having someone touch me during a scene to connect with them and draw from their energy, to help me endure the pain and know that there is something beyond the immediate agony to hold onto. The boyfriend however, is a fairly heavy masochist. Moreso, he gets endorphin rushes, when he is bottoming as a masochist he wants to be completely left on his own, no talking, no touching, simple warm-up and beat, hard. He loves this state. I love knowing he can experience that pleasure. My problem? I don't know how to do it! While I have intense energy awareness of people around me, when he goes into his disassociative state, I can't sense him on that level anymore and it makes me VERY disoriented. Also, while I have highly attuned intuition, I tend to have a low sense of empathy, so when he dives down, I can't sense that emotion. Being a fairly new top still, I'm not sure how to go about it. He plays marvelously with experienced tops who like hurting masochists. I can hit him, though I need more refined and broader skills, but I don't feel confident enough yet to simply let myself whale away on someone without getting feedback. With the boyfriend however, feedback takes him out of where I want to take him! So, beyond the obvious- experience, communication and practice together, are there any possible hints or tips on dealing with my darling heavy masochist?

stormsfate -> RE: Dealing with a Deep Masochist (7/11/2005 10:59:15 AM)
I know you said that feedback takes him out of his space (and believe me...I totally get that), but what about after the scene getting feedback? Or even having a prolonged six hour marathon (God I miss those!) getting some feedback in the down times? I've heard of people incorporating it into their scenes in such a way that some may see it as "topping from the bottom". The person I'm thinking of in particular, used this method with people that were new in playing with him, and often when he co-topped with others. I wish I could explain it the way he did, but it would be tough to type it all out. f

Gemeni -> RE: Dealing with a Deep Masochist (7/11/2005 11:34:20 AM)
I tend to use toys tailored to sensory overload on heavy masos. More sting than anything else usually works. Now things like caning or paddling just do too much damage-I use these sparingly. Especially in the age of on the spot "abuse" reporting,should a doctor ever see marks. Look into things like quirts. These leave lovely red marks,carry a heavy sensation overload,and the marks go away quickly. Now the heavier toys tend to disrupt the skin layers too much,and will leave incredible amounts of marks and bruises behind. You may find that clamps and cbt work well on your boyfriend too. As far as learning his levels,...I don't care how heavy a painpig bottom says she is. I'm going to session and work up at MY rate till I have confidence that I know what is going on. Then I check in afterwords to get the reactions on what happened. This is for MY comfort,since I would be the one getting hauled off by cops if I screwed up. It's pretty simple,just think.

EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Dealing with a Deep Masochist (7/11/2005 11:43:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gemeni I tend to use toys tailored to sensory overload on heavy masos. More sting than anything else usually works. Now things like caning or paddling just do too much damage-I use these sparingly. Especially in the age of on the spot "abuse" reporting,should a doctor ever see marks. As the victim of many canings I don't think they do too much damage, but good point on marks. I don't see it as a big deal, he's a male after all and the likelihood of a doctor trying to get an abuse issue started is highly improbable. quote: Look into things like quirts. These leave lovely red marks,carry a heavy sensation overload,and the marks go away quickly. Now the heavier toys tend to disrupt the skin layers too much,and will leave incredible amounts of marks and bruises behind. You may find that clamps and cbt work well on your boyfriend too. Clamps are good, but no CBT. I WANT to spoil him and take him into that happy headspace of disassociation. quote: As far as learning his levels,...I don't care how heavy a painpig bottom says she is. I'm going to session and work up at MY rate till I have confidence that I know what is going on. Then I check in afterwords to get the reactions on what happened. This is for MY comfort,since I would be the one getting hauled off by cops if I screwed up. It's pretty simple,just think. That's understandable, in this day and age gender still makes a large difference and that's not really an issue I am concerned with. Specially as we've been together almost a year and nothing has led me to believe cops will be on my door anytime soon.

Gemeni -> RE: Dealing with a Deep Masochist (7/11/2005 11:54:45 AM)
The biggest thing is just clear feedback after the fact Emerald. I find that you really don't want to distract most masochists from the sensations during the scene-chatter tends to ruin it for them. If you want a really GOOD debriefing methods,set up a video camera to record one of your scenes with him. Setting a mirror up in front of him so he can look, and remember certain moments will help in this method as well. That way you can play it back later,and go over it point by point with him. And you will know pretty much exactly at what point he crossed over. Make sense?

EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Dealing with a Deep Masochist (7/11/2005 12:13:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gemeni The biggest thing is just clear feedback after the fact Emerald. I find that you really don't want to distract most masochists from the sensations during the scene-chatter tends to ruin it for them. Yup. We talk after scenes and he's pretty good about telling me how he's experiencing things, but it's maddening to me as a non-masochist. quote: If you want a really GOOD debriefing methods,set up a video camera to record one of your scenes with him. Setting a mirror up in front of him so he can look, and remember certain moments will help in this method as well. That way you can play it back later,and go over it point by point with him. And you will know pretty much exactly at what point he crossed over. Make sense? That's a great idea. This weekend we did a pain scene with him and the Owner and his Boston sub were topping him as well. I really wanted to just be able to watch him the whole time, but they went onto other things after they got him going and left him in my hands.

Kinkypupper -> RE: Dealing with a Deep Masochist (7/11/2005 12:15:43 PM)
Best suggestion BOTH of you setup a visit with a Sadist.. :-)

EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Dealing with a Deep Masochist (7/11/2005 12:29:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kinkypupper Best suggestion BOTH of you setup a visit with a Sadist.. :-) LOL the Owner and his Boston sub both are!

SteelBondager -> RE: Dealing with a Deep Masochist (7/11/2005 1:04:09 PM)
Don't be afraid to experiment and get it wrong. It's ok if he doesn't have the time of his life when you're learning. He'll benefit from the time spent later. Safety first!

MadamMichelle -> RE: Dealing with a Deep Masochist (7/11/2005 2:59:31 PM)
I have found that anything that makes a lot of noise helps. After you hit someone so long there is a tendency for them to get numb sometimes so they never feel like they're getting "enough" . I found that wooden wok tools are great. The curve of the spatula makes a nice whack. Right before I feel that numbness is descending upon them I've used a bottle brush, or a pizza crust docker. Not very painful but it feels VERY annoying, it keeps you aniticipating more, so when you resume with a paddle or something, it feels a little more intense.

Domin81 -> RE: Dealing with a Deep Masochist (7/12/2005 4:24:26 PM)
Heavy masochists are soooooo much fun especially if you can get into their heads with a good mind fuck. To take a masochist over the top, I believe that you have to become good at reading body language (particularily the hands). I have most success with a mild warm-up then stepping it up until their body shows me that they are close to the edge of what they can stand...back off a bit, let them regroup then push again until their body 'tells' you that they are again near their edge. Back off a bit, let them regroup and go again. Each cycle will go further until you are flying them. A word of caution, some masochists get to a place where they are incapable of looking after themselves (i.e. what is too much or damaging) and you have to take on that reponsibility for them. The time to talk about the scene and it's dynamics is well after both of you have come down...like maybe the next day? Yummmmm heavy masochists are sooooo much fun!

MsIncognito -> RE: Dealing with a Deep Masochist (7/12/2005 7:10:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Domin81 To take a masochist over the top, I believe that you have to become good at reading body language (particularily the hands). I have most success with a mild warm-up then stepping it up until their body shows me that they are close to the edge of what they can stand...back off a bit, let them regroup then push again until their body 'tells' you that they are again near their edge. Back off a bit, let them regroup and go again. Each cycle will go further until you are flying them. happy sigh Ahhh, memories. You described that perfectly. It works so well, that yummy pain rollercoaster. quote: A word of caution, some masochists get to a place where they are incapable of looking after themselves (i.e. what is too much or damaging) and you have to take on that reponsibility for them. This is a very good point. I know that after a few of the cycles you describe the endorphins kick in and the nature of the pain changes. My perception of it is such that it feels to me like it's really not that bad - as if the Top has actually decreased the intensity of the play yet they haven't. I liken it to a pain 'haze' rather than full-on intense pain. This is the point where I want and NEED more to perceive the same sort of intensity of sensation. This is also where it's really important to be playing with a Top who is able to read body language cues and recognize the signs that it's time to change things up and/or back off before too much damage is done. Due to the change in perception with the endorphin flood I really am not able to tell during this phase when it's too much and crossing over into damage. Just as a side note: bruises that turn black the next day and take a few weeks to go away are not damage...well, not permanent damage anyway! [;)]

Atavist -> RE: Dealing with a Deep Masochist (7/13/2005 4:56:50 AM)
Interesting question. When your boyfriend enters this "disassociative state" (good way of describing it), can you you observe it? Audibly or visually? If no, try talking to him afterwards, maybe he can give you information, additional clues that'll allow you to know when he's transitioning into this other state. Secondly, I guess you have to ask yourself what you want to give him. It sounds like you don't get a great deal psychological pleasure from inflicting pain. If thats true there must be something else you receive from beating him. Perhaps that it pleases him, perhaps that you feel in total control, perhaps just the knowledge that you're giving him something pleasurable, perhaps a mixture of all of the above. Im not particularly sadistic myself, but I've always gotten great sastisfaction from giving a partner those things that give them the greatest pleasures. I also get a great deal of psychological satisfaction from being in control. In some cases, its a good hard spanking. Simply knowing Im giving her pleasure makes the entire experience enjoyable for both of us.

MsIncognito -> RE: Dealing with a Deep Masochist (7/13/2005 5:15:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Atavist Interesting question. When your boyfriend enters this "disassociative state" (good way of describing it), can you you observe it? Audibly or visually? If no, try talking to him afterwards, maybe he can give you information, additional clues that'll allow you to know when he's transitioning into this other state. About that "disassociative" state. Obviously I can't speak for Emerald's boyfriend but for me what probably looks like a disassociative state isn't at all. If anything I become hyperfocused on the scene. It's an odd juxtaposition because the pain haze alters the perception of pain yet I become hyperfocused on the Top, what they are doing and every little sensation. Everything else recedes into the background and there is nothing except the Top and me and what is happening in the scene. True, it's difficult to give detailed feedback while in this state but that doesn't mean I'm in the 'totally out of it and can't remember a thing' type of subspace some people experience. While it may look that way I'm actually hyper aware while I ride the endorphin high. I can give some feedback, just not a dissertation (that can be done afterwards). Usually I can manage a few words to describe my physical/psychological/emotional state if asked. I also find that the more I'm asked to do that in this state the easier it becomes. Initially I found being asked to give feedback at this time highly annoying but I realize that I need to be able to help the Top understand where I'm at especially since my perception of pain is altered.

EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Dealing with a Deep Masochist (7/13/2005 5:51:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Atavist If no, try talking to him afterwards, maybe he can give you information, additional clues that'll allow you to know when he's transitioning into this other state. Yes, that's the "communication" I put in the first post. quote: Secondly, I guess you have to ask yourself what you want to give him. It sounds like you don't get a great deal psychological pleasure from inflicting pain. Oh no, I can be a sadistic hellion if I want, and we do scenes like that. But I also want to effectively give him happy pain too. I just like being able to do what I want when I want :) quote: If thats true there must be something else you receive from beating him. Perhaps that it pleases him, perhaps that you feel in total control, perhaps just the knowledge that you're giving him something pleasurable, perhaps a mixture of all of the above. In this circumstance it's definitely being a service top and loving girlfriend.

EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Dealing with a Deep Masochist (7/13/2005 5:53:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsIncognito About that "disassociative" state. Obviously I can't speak for Emerald's boyfriend but for me what probably looks like a disassociative state isn't at all. If anything I become hyperfocused on the scene. No, he definitely disassociates (his word). The pain allows him to withdraw completely from EVERYTHING, to drive him into himself and do nothing but ride the pain, allow it to go through him, and just be inside himself with nothing else going on. Perhaps in time we can reach a point where he can give some level of direct feedback without dragging him out of the headspace.

MsIncognito -> RE: Dealing with a Deep Masochist (7/13/2005 10:04:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2 Perhaps in time we can reach a point where he can give some level of direct feedback without dragging him out of the headspace. I suspect you can. I've played with Tops who let me ride that wave and others who want to keep me more "present" in the scene. Being allowed to ride the wave is "Wheeee!" fun but being kept present maintains the connection with the Top. Initially you might try just reinforcing your presence when he's in that state - with a touch, a few soothing/encouraging/sexy words or even by changing the sensation but without expecting feedback from him. Eventually I suspect you will be able to have him enjoy that headspace and be able to give you feedback of some sort. It sounds like you guys are having loads of fun and I wish you both the best [:)]

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