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RE: moral north; seeking opinions on religious scenes - 8/30/2007 12:45:58 PM   
SimplyMichael


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Going into a church and defiling it is wrong, going into a dungeon and raping someone in the ass with a crucifix is hot.  Works for me.

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RE: moral north; seeking opinions on religious scenes - 8/30/2007 12:57:31 PM   
Stephann


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Ditto.

The ass raping part aside that is; I've just never gotten into that.

Stephan


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RE: moral north; seeking opinions on religious scenes - 8/30/2007 12:59:18 PM   
mnottertail


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I don't recall anything against ass rape in the bible, the only sin was dumping the jizm on the ground.

Leviticus

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RE: moral north; seeking opinions on religious scenes - 8/30/2007 1:01:35 PM   
SimplyMichael


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I remember one of my first play parties or at least the first one I threw and there were these amazingly strict butch dykes doing a religious scene with rosary beads and crosses.  I can't even recall exactly what all they did but oh my god was it hot.

As an aside, I have a friend who makes special crosses.  Imagine a silicone cross shaped out of dildos like your typical crucifix complete with Jesus on the "cross".  A friend of my father's comment was "gee there is one for the little girls and one for the big girls"...

Now THAT is offensive but I do love it.

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RE: moral north; seeking opinions on religious scenes - 8/30/2007 1:16:08 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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There's also these
http://www.blowfish.com/catalog/toys/symbolic_dildos.html

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RE: moral north; seeking opinions on religious scenes - 8/30/2007 1:32:22 PM   
mnottertail


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That right there, was a real religious revelation, for me.

Ron

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: moral north; seeking opinions on religious scenes - 8/30/2007 1:55:49 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perplex

to me a scene is a scene and as long as no "valid" objects are harmed during the scene (even I woudln't probably go peepee on an altar) it's just so much RP, but their reaction really shocked me so I thought I'd throw it open to get other input. I guess I wanna understand if it is *wrong* why is it wrong, if it isn't real, then where is the harm.


I can only define it as wrong or not for me. For me, this would be very wrong. I could not handle being part of such a scene. If it was going on at a play party or public dungeon, I would simply leave the area until it was done. I wouldn't make a big deal out of it or exlain why to anyone who didn't need to know (ie. my owner or the person I was playing with). Depending on the specifics of the scene played I probably wouldn't want to hear about it and would just respectfully ask that I not be told about it.

However, whatever floats your boat floats your boat. Everyone consented, everyone knows what they are doing? Go for it and have fun.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

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RE: moral north; seeking opinions on religious scenes - 8/30/2007 2:54:33 PM   
MisterPervert


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Actually, the Bible is filled with some pretty kinky stuff and you can't go past Ezekiel for this. For example:

Ezekiel sees God's loins -  1:27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

Ezekiel sees God's loins again - 8:2 Then I beheld, and lo a likeness as the appearance of fire: from the appearance of his loins even downward, fire; and from his loins even upward, as the appearance of brightness, as the colour of amber.

The spirit (of God?) enters Ezekiel, ties him up, and makes his tongue stick to the roof of his mouth so that he could no longer speak. -

3:24 Then the spirit entered into me, and set me upon my feet, and spake with me, and said unto me, Go, shut thyself within thine house.





3:25 But thou, O son of man, behold, they shall put bands upon thee, and shall bind thee with them, and thou shalt not go out among them:

3:26 And I will make thy tongue cleave to the roof of thy mouth, that thou shalt be dumb, and shalt not be to them a reprover: for they are a rebellious house.

God tells Ezekiel to eat barley cakes that are made with human excrement (Yum! Scat, anybody?) - 4:12 And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight.




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RE: moral north; seeking opinions on religious scenes - 8/30/2007 4:14:19 PM   
e01n


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Oh, don't forget Ezekiel 23! The tale of the two Harlot Sisters!

Ezekiel Chapter 23
1 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying,
2 Son of man, there were two women, daughters of one mother:
3 They were acting like loose women in Egypt; when they were young their behaviour was loose: there their breasts were crushed, even the points of their young breasts were crushed.
4 Their names were Oholah, the older, and Oholibah, her sister: and they became mine, and gave birth to sons and daughters. As for their names, Samaria is Oholah, and Jerusalem, Oholibah.
5 And Oholah was untrue to me when she was mine; she was full of desire for her lovers, even for the Assyrians, her neighbours,
6 Who were clothed in blue, captains and rulers, all of them young men to be desired, horsemen seated on horses.

{Oooooo... cosplay is Biblical!}

7 And she gave her unclean love to them, all of them the noblest men of Assyria: and she made herself unclean with the images of all who were desired by her.
8 And she has not given up her loose ways from the time when she was in Egypt; for when she was young they were her lovers, and by them her young breasts were crushed, and they let loose on her their unclean desire.
9 For this cause I gave her up into the hands of her lovers, into the hands of the Assyrians on whom her desire was fixed.
10 By these her shame was uncovered: they took her sons and daughters and put her to death with the sword: and she became a cause of wonder to women; for they gave her the punishment which was right.
11 And her sister Oholibah saw this, but her desire was even more unmeasured, and her loose behaviour was worse than that of her sister.
12 She was full of desire for the Assyrians, captains and rulers, her neighbours, clothed in blue, horsemen going on horses, all of them young men to be desired.
13 And I saw that she had become unclean; the two of them went the same way.
14 And her loose behaviour became worse; for she saw men pictured on a wall, pictures of the Chaldaeans painted in bright red,
15 With bands round their bodies and with head-dresses hanging round their heads, all of them looking like rulers, like the Babylonians, the land of whose birth is Chaldaea.
16 And when she saw them she was full of desire for them, and sent servants to them in Chaldaea.
17 And the Babylonians came to her, into the bed of love, and made her unclean with their loose desire, and she became unclean with them, and her soul was turned from them.
18 So her loose behaviour was clearly seen and her shame uncovered: then my soul was turned from her as it had been turned from her sister.
19 But still she went on the more with her loose behaviour, keeping in mind the early days when she had been a loose woman in the land of Egypt.
20 And she was full of desire for her lovers, whose flesh is like the flesh of asses and whose seed is like the seed of horses.

{Yes, exactly what it sounds like: donkey dicks and horse jizz}

21 And she made the memory of the loose ways of her early years come back to mind, when her young breasts were crushed by the Egyptians.
22 For this cause, O Oholibah, this is what the Lord has said: See, I will make your lovers come up against you, even those from whom your soul is turned away in disgust; and I will make them come up against you on every side;
23 The Babylonians and all the Chaldaeans, Pekod and Shoa and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them: young men to be desired, captains and rulers all of them, and chiefs, her neighbours, all of them on horseback.
24 And they will come against you from the north on horseback, with war-carriages and a great band of peoples; they will put themselves in order against you with breastplate and body-cover and metal head-dress round about you: and I will make them your judges, and they will give their decision against you as seems right to them.
25 And my bitter feeling will be working against you, and they will take you in hand with passion; they will take away your nose and your ears, and the rest of you will be put to the sword: they will take your sons and daughters, and the rest of you will be burned up in the fire.
26 And they will take all your clothing off you and take away your ornaments.

{Hrm... Forced "train pulling"?}

27 So I will put an end to your evil ways and your loose behaviour which came from the land of Egypt: and your eyes will never be lifted up to them again, and you will have no more memory of Egypt.
28 For this is what the Lord has said: See, I will give you up into the hands of those who are hated by you, into the hands of those from whom your soul is turned away in disgust:
29 And they will take you in hand with hate, and take away all the fruit of your work, and let you be unveiled and without clothing: and the shame of your loose behaviour will be uncovered, your evil designs and your loose ways.
30 They will do these things to you because you have been untrue to me, and have gone after the nations, and have become unclean with their images.
31 You have gone in the way of your sister; and I will give her cup into your hand.
32 This is what the Lord has said: You will take a drink from your sister's cup, which is deep and wide: you will be laughed at and looked down on, more than you are able to undergo.
33 You will be broken and full of sorrow, with the cup of wonder and destruction, with the cup of your sister Samaria.
34 And after drinking it and draining it out, you will take the last drops of it to the end, pulling off your breasts: for I have said it, says the Lord.
35 So this is what the Lord has said: Because you have not kept me in your memory, and because your back has been turned to me, you will even undergo the punishment of your evil designs and your loose ways.
36 Then the Lord said to me: Son of man, will you be the judge of Oholibah? then make clear to her the disgusting things she has done.
37 For she has been false to me, and blood is on her hands, and with her images she has been untrue; and more than this, she made her sons, whom she had by me, go through the fire to them to be burned up.
38 Further, this is what she has done to me: she has made my holy place unclean and has made my Sabbaths unclean.
39 For when she had made an offering of her children to her images, she came into my holy place to make it unclean; see, this is what she has done inside my house.
40 And she even sent for men to come from far away, to whom a servant was sent, and they came: for whom she was washing her body and painting her eyes and making herself fair with ornaments.
41 And she took her seat on a great bed, with a table put ready before it on which she put my perfume and my oil.
42 ... and they put jewels on her hands and beautiful crowns on her head.
43 Then I said ... now she will go on with her loose ways.
44 And they went in to her, as men go to a loose woman: so they went in to Oholibah, the loose woman.
45 And upright men will be her judges, judging her as false wives and women who take lives are judged; because she has been untrue to me and blood is on her hands.
46 For this is what the Lord has said: I will make a great meeting of the people come together against her, and will send on her shaking fear and take everything from her.

{Funny. Didn't IHVH/AHIH say that he'd NEVER turn against Abraham's seed? And that he'd NEVER put Israel away from him?}

47 And the meeting, after stoning her with stones, will put an end to her with their swords; they will put her sons and daughters to death and have her house burned up with fire.
48 And I will put an end to evil in all the land, teaching all women not to do as you have done.
49 And I will send on you the punishment of your evil ways, and you will be rewarded for your sins with your images: and you will be certain that I am the Lord.

{And this is where Samuel L Jackson starts shooting... }

< Message edited by e01n -- 8/30/2007 4:19:02 PM >

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RE: moral north; seeking opinions on religious scenes - 8/30/2007 4:40:58 PM   
Bobkgin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

The question is "what defines attacking a belief"? 


I think everything bdsm attacks the beliefs of christianity. It would all be considered sacrilege.

So I really can't take the position that we should avoid sacrilege seriously: it would mean not doing bdsm (nor poly, nor gblt, etc)

From my point of view, attacking belief would have to involve doing something offensive in front of those who would be offended, such as storming a church during service and urinating on the minister, or something of that nature.

If none of the participants share in a religious belief, then contravening that religious belief is merely exercising their freedom to believe (and not believe) what they will.

In that case, there is no attack on belief, because there is no one there trying to maintain that belief. Their own refusal to adopt the belief might be viewed as an "attack".

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When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

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RE: moral north; seeking opinions on religious scenes - 8/30/2007 4:46:11 PM   
celticlord2112


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I would imagine the "harm" for most people would lie in the inherent unreality of a religiously tinged BDSM scene.  Such unreality, in some people's minds, would easily be equated with trivializing their religious belief.  I cannot say with certainty that all religious scenes are disrespectful and sacrilegious, but I can say that one would definitely be skirting the edge of disrespect.

Having said that, I often utilize constructs from religion to organize a scene.  A flogging ritual presented as penance challenges the pain-averse submissive, for example, and can open some interesting psychological doors.  Where I personally draw the line is in the use of religious concepts and contructs, without incorporating specific religious references.

"Proceed with caution" seems to me as a wise rule for such situations.


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RE: moral north; seeking opinions on religious scenes - 8/30/2007 4:47:07 PM   
kyraofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

There's also these
http://www.blowfish.com/catalog/toys/symbolic_dildos.html


LMAO

Oh God, that was good.  I want one!! 

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

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RE: moral north; seeking opinions on religious scenes - 8/30/2007 4:59:29 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin
I think everything bdsm attacks the beliefs of christianity. It would all be considered sacrilege.


I am curious how you come to that conclusion.  A good many of the implements associated with BDSM (especially floggers) have been used by religious ascetics in various acts of self-mortification.  Although I have not done this personally, I can envision someone wishing to undergo a crucifixion scene to experience some of the suffering of Christ; the precept of "imitatio Christi" has been a cornerstone of monastic life since St Benedict.

BDSM is neither inherently heretical nor inherently spiritual--as with any lifestyle or activity, it may be either, neither, or both.



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RE: moral north; seeking opinions on religious scenes - 8/30/2007 5:44:32 PM   
Bobkgin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin
I think everything bdsm attacks the beliefs of christianity. It would all be considered sacrilege.


I am curious how you come to that conclusion.  A good many of the implements associated with BDSM (especially floggers) have been used by religious ascetics in various acts of self-mortification.  Although I have not done this personally, I can envision someone wishing to undergo a crucifixion scene to experience some of the suffering of Christ; the precept of "imitatio Christi" has been a cornerstone of monastic life since St Benedict.

BDSM is neither inherently heretical nor inherently spiritual--as with any lifestyle or activity, it may be either, neither, or both.




The Flagellists (as a religious sect) no longer exist. They were a Catholic group, and were banned a few centuries ago.

I recall a man in the Phillipines undergoing a form of crucifixion, but that was in religious adoration of Christ, not part of a scene.

From my point of view, BDSM is a form of sexual expression, and does not follow the precepts of Christianity.

For example, any sexual activity outside of marriage is considered "fornication", and is banned. GBLT sexual expressions are also banned as "abominations".

Paul in his Epistles spoke often of male-dominated families and spoke against women being in control, thus dommes would be banned.

Jesus, in the Serrmon on the Mount and in the lecture to the rich young prince made clear that Christians are expected to focus on God's will and nothing else.

I think it would be hard to argue that BDSM is the Christian God's will for anyone.

I don't subscribe to any of these beliefs, but I'm familiar enough with Christianity to understand how it would exclude BDSM altogether.


_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

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RE: moral north; seeking opinions on religious scenes - 8/30/2007 5:47:04 PM   
CuriousLord


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Religious people are crazy.  Just come up with some half-assed reason that religion should be used in the scene that sounds pleasant to their various concerns, and they'll eat it up.

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RE: moral north; seeking opinions on religious scenes - 8/30/2007 5:57:31 PM   
domiguy


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There is a "cottage" on a lake up north that used to be a monastery for priests...It was purchased by some friends who are Caholic, they preserved  the room with the altar just as it had always been...When I saw it, the first thing I asked was which of them was the first to fuck someone on it?

I got blank stares of disbelief like I had just eaten a baby.

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RE: moral north; seeking opinions on religious scenes - 8/30/2007 6:02:35 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

I don't subscribe to any of these beliefs, but I'm familiar enough with Christianity to understand how it would exclude BDSM altogether.



I would be interested in the specific passages you are thinking of, particularly since there are Christian BDSM groups that find no conflict in being both Christian and in the BDSM lifestyle.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

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RE: moral north; seeking opinions on religious scenes - 8/30/2007 6:08:44 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin
I think it would be hard to argue that BDSM is the Christian God's will for anyone.


I've yet to find the passage in the Bible that says "thou shalt not flog".  Where did you find it?


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RE: moral north; seeking opinions on religious scenes - 8/30/2007 6:13:54 PM   
CuriousLord


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Religion is the narcissistic belief that one's own thoughts and feelings are universal and/or eternal.  The particular lore one uses to justify their egos with is rather arbitrary.

In this regard, one can very well be a "Christian" in BDSM.  Sure, why not?  You just relate it back to whatever you feel, then somehow call it divine.

[Edit:  Cut.  (Yeah, I'm trying to be nice.)]  Meh.  I'm going to leave it alone.

Back on topic, though, Bobkgin was correct in saying that Christians aren't for BDSM.  It's important to realize he's referring to "Christians", as one would typically think of them, not as any particular person who might call themself a Christian.  (You can just really like clipping your toe nails, say you do it for Jesus, and call yourself a Christian.  This doesn't mean others have to acknowledge you as such.  Not that you're any more insane than the people who do anything else "for Jesus".)

Your point, though, is still valid.  There are people who say they love this Jesus fellow and practice BDSM.  I mean, sure, why not?  BDSM and the feeling of being ultimately cared couldn't be that bad of a combination.  And, let's be frank.  When you get down to it, people who practice such silly beliefs really just want whatever makes them feel good and isn't immediately and obvilously false to them.  Such people, by being in the same religion, support eachother.  While they may not be able to be upfront about their BDSM fetishes at conventional churches, the idea that there are many other Christians out there gives them a feeling of legitimacy.  Just like it does for the more conventional Christians.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 8/30/2007 6:23:50 PM >

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RE: moral north; seeking opinions on religious scenes - 8/30/2007 6:20:10 PM   
Bobkgin


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From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

I don't subscribe to any of these beliefs, but I'm familiar enough with Christianity to understand how it would exclude BDSM altogether.



I would be interested in the specific passages you are thinking of, particularly since there are Christian BDSM groups that find no conflict in being both Christian and in the BDSM lifestyle.


It will take a little time to compose the response for your request, Aqua. I won't quote, just provide chapter and verse. That and the Skeptic's Annotated Bible site ought to give you want you're looking for.

As for the Christian BDSM groups, I probably don't need to point out just how many different christian sects there are out there and how many interpretations of scripture.

I'm referring to what I'd call Catholic, mainstream protestant and fundamentalism.

I am familiar with the "Taken in Hand" group, which does seem to attempt to restore some biblical concepts of how a family is structured (read: male dominance). And while they seem to have some tolerance for bdsm activities, they do not seem to encourage that (based on what I read of their mission statement, etc).

But I'd say this is a rather small sect compared to the section of the christian spectrum I mentioned above.

I'll put together a list of the chapters and verses I was thinking of in my previous post.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 40
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