Slave's Obedience

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gentlesurrender -> Slave's Obedience (7/13/2005 1:10:07 AM)
I had an interesting debate last night in a Gorean chat room, regarding a slave’s obedience to her Master, would she lie for him, would she steal for him, basically would she do anything for him even if it meant harming others. I was inclined to say it depended on the situation and the circumstances, but conceded there were times I would not be able to obey. The essence was, as a human being I was morally right, but as slave I had failed. So I would like to throw the debate open further. I guess my take on life I, I am first and foremost a human being; I evolved into the person I am whether that is as a vanilla, submissive or slave. From the debate I feel there is a sliding scale of obedience, from a trusting loving kind; to a blind irresponsible kind. I wonder if that goes along with the scale of a kind, considerate, trustworthy Master who treats his slave as a human being; sliding up to the Master who owns his piece of property and demands she obeys no matter what. So my question is this – How do you feel about a slave abdicating responsibility for her actions as a human being, in blind obedience to her Master. Not forgetting of course how the law of the land would view the actions. (terms are generic for ease but covers Master/Mistress, slave being him or her)

LordNeuf -> RE: Slave's Obedience (7/13/2005 2:06:20 AM)
Hmm lets see. I consider Gor to be merely fantasy and has no true meaning in a 24/7 enviorment. If the slave wishes to lie cheat and steal in an online format for role play experience that's fine. If she wants to do it real life, then she's overly devoted to a truly horrible person.

ElektraUkM -> RE: Slave's Obedience (7/13/2005 2:43:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gentlesurrender How do you feel about a slave abdicating responsibility for her actions as a human being, in blind obedience to her Master. Not forgetting of course how the law of the land would view the actions. Personally, I'd view such actions as reprehensible, both for the slave and the Master. I think that is the type of extreme 'what if?' question that is often asked of the M/s relationship, in order to push the fabric of it to tearing. I don't really view them in a serious manner, because they're akin in my mind to the 'would you approve of abortion if you knew the child would grow up to be Hitler' type of conundrums. If you are interested, there are similar points made/questions asked on the 'Define Slave' thread. Although that thread seemed to be more about 'Should we ever use the term 'slave'?', rather than a consideration of what slavery in the bdsm sense is. Define Slave ~ Elektra

plantlady64 -> RE: Slave's Obedience (7/13/2005 4:30:22 AM)
Hello There, There are a lot of gorean concepts I don't agree with. In general the concept to me seems to treat the sub/slave like their livestock. It seems to leave no room for even human dignaty or feelings of compassion for the sub/slave in general. The Master is the only person that counts and the sub being happy isn't even considered. What kind of Master would want a liar and a thief, let alone turn someone into one. To me the Master who asks this of a slave, gorean or not, is a huge loser in my book. I think if you have an honorable Master a gorean approach though strict could work, but the capacity to go on a Masters ego ride without any consideration for his sub is so great I don't know why there any subs that submit under this rule of thumb. I would recommend you find yourself an old guard Master instead. The concepts of old guard consider a sub/slave is human and has a right to have human dignaty and compassion. There is nothing I would not do for my Master, and I have no safe word. I am emtitled to discuss my feelings and they are taken into consideration. Not only that the protocol considers most of the sexy strict ethics a sub needs to feel to be ruled with the iron hand, but in a nice kid skin glove, and does not treat subs like livestock to pervert into someone who isn't permitted to have a brain. Sincerely, sub suzanne

JerryInTampa -> RE: Slave's Obedience (7/13/2005 5:16:50 AM)
Despite the taste that, what amounts to BDSM LARP (Live-Action Role-Playing) leaves in my mouth, I'm gonna avoid making a comment on Gor from a tackyness level; and having had slaves that very much wanted to be regarded as chattle, I'm not going to find fault in that aspect either. It goes without saying, that the owner that would make that demand falls under the same judgement as any person who would choose to do that directly... worse because they are involving another. As to what a "true slave (TM)" would do... it will depend. Someone sufficiently immersed, with either tremendous conviction, or limited self-esteem will likely follow through. Someone a little less "in the space", or with a functioning self-esteem is less likely to (unless that was already in their nature). Either way, the willingness does not make the behavior "right". I find most appealing the relationship where loyalty and trust is so high that the instruction would be obeyed... but I think that level of trust should only be earned by those who would never so abuse it.

EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Slave's Obedience (7/13/2005 5:35:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gentlesurrender So my question is this – How do you feel about a slave abdicating responsibility for her actions as a human being, in blind obedience to her Master. Not forgetting of course how the law of the land would view the actions. I have to say that a master who would choose to have his slave abdicate responsibility would have a damn good reason for it. The time to be morally responsible is BEFORE you become owned. Afterwards, morals take a back seat to obedience. This is WHY we keep saying "Make sure you know what you're getting into" Personally, I KNOW I would lie and steal and kill under the right circumstances. I knew this LONG before I became owned. So to accept that the Owner has authority over that behavior now is not a change except in that he has the authority and might even prevent me from doing it (stealing/killing/etc) when I felt I should. Now, I do not feel a slave abdicates responsibility in a relationship as a slave. I am responsible for MANY things as the Owner's slave, including making moral and ethical daily choices. However, his authority is ULTIMATE, and I know if he ordered me to do something, it would be for damn good reasons. This really is one of those times where you better trust the owner to know themselves.

Leonidas -> RE: Slave's Obedience (7/13/2005 5:53:43 AM)
quote: I guess my take on life I, I am first and foremost a human being; I evolved into the person I am whether that is as a vanilla, submissive or slave. From the debate I feel there is a sliding scale of obedience, from a trusting loving kind; to a blind irresponsible kind. Obedience when it suits you isn't slavery. You are of the opinion that putting your life in the hands of someone else is irresponsible. You are in the majority in that opinon. Nothing wrong with that. Remain a woman who reserves her free will, but tends to be submissive. Slavery is a life choice that, like every life choice, carries with it certain risks. It's not for everyone. quote: I wonder if that goes along with the scale of a kind, considerate, trustworthy Master who treats his slave as a human being; sliding up to the Master who owns his piece of property and demands she obeys no matter what. How about someone who is ethically upstanding, treats their slave with the consideration due valuable property, and requires absolute obedience? The traits aren't mutually exclusive. quote: So my question is this – How do you feel about a slave abdicating responsibility for her actions as a human being, in blind obedience to her Master. Not forgetting of course how the law of the land would view the actions. I feel that she ought to be careful, act as an adult, and expect that if she makes life choices that are risky that she bears those risks.

gentlesurrender -> RE: Slave's Obedience (7/13/2005 5:58:15 AM)
I would like to thank you all for your reasoned replies and grateful for not inflaming the ways of Gor. Debate is great to learn and understand different perspectives and forge your own way forward as to where you want to be. Within the context of the debate i did say it was where the submission to the Master in the first place was paramount, so you would have to get to know him. As one Master said, how will you ever know anyone that well before submission. I wholeheartedly agreed with him as you never know what is really going on in a persons mind and what they may or may not do, even after knowing them 20 years, which i learnt from bitter experience. We can only probe, ask questions, evaluate and try to come up with the right choices and answers, that suits as each individually. be well, be safe and take care all, many thanks

RandBcouple -> RE: Slave's Obedience (7/13/2005 9:19:14 AM)
quote: Obedience when it suits you isn't slavery i agree with that statment Obeying my Master isn't something i do when it feels good, or when it's something i happen to enjoy. As His property i do as He says, even when it's something that goes against my own values, upbringing...etc... like emerald said, all that takes a back seat when you are owned ... it's not about what i need as an individual, what i think is right or wrong doesn't matter any longer because i made one decision, and that was to submit myself entirely to Him, so that's all left up to Him. Would i lie or steal for my Master, hell yes... in a heart beat. It's not up to me to choose which roads we take, it's His. ~Hugs~ Babygirl

darksparkle -> RE: Slave's Obedience (7/13/2005 10:40:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RandBcouple Would i lie or steal for my Master, hell yes... in a heart beat. ~Hugs~ Babygirl [:o] Congratulations! Great way to be!

gentlesurrender -> RE: Slave's Obedience (7/13/2005 10:41:58 AM)
smiles, as it should be for one who is owned maybe i am reading your post wrong, and my assumption could be totally wrong, but i sense a great confidence and trust in your Master, who i doubt would take you down an avenue that would be detrimental to you or Himself

EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Slave's Obedience (7/13/2005 10:54:16 AM)
I think this is just another symptom of the vast idea that dominants are somehow nasty wild angry evil creatures just BARELY kept in check by a submissives keen sense of know-how, hard limits, and various other watch dogs. We claim that we get into relationships with dominants who are trustworthy, who are wise, who are understanding, who want to have fulfilling lives with the people around them. And yet somehow we always expect that some day doms are going to go berserk, leave all rational thought behind them and order a chick into direct traffic just for giggles. Now, doms are human, they make mistakes. Some dominants ARE assholes and can't manage a relationship any more than they can make the sun not set. But is the idea that there are dominants out there who exist, dominants who ARE rational, dominants who DO what they feel is right, with all orders, and that someone might accept the scope of that, understanding that morality and ethics is anything but clearcut, understanding that life sometimes hands you very weird experiences you might never imagine, but you know whose authority you have over you no matter WHAT and that the dominant isn't suddenly bonkers, but perhaps in the right place to make those judgements, so impossible to realize?

RandBcouple -> RE: Slave's Obedience (7/13/2005 12:22:16 PM)
very well said emerald... There are many things which Master has me do that i enjoy and find immediate gratification, other things however, are not so enjoyable to me, and some things i might not even find good reason for...but when i chose to become His, i made that decision based on the trust i felt for Him, based on what i knew of Him and what He had demonstrated to me by His actions up to that point. Once i made that committment, once i became His, i let go of my own ethics,morals,values,preferences, etc etc ....i simply follow His orders, His wants & needs....if it goes against anything which i use to believe was wrong, i suck it up and do what i am told to do anyways....because it's not a matter of choosing when to obey and when not to obey....not in our relationship... it's either all or nothing. Not saying this is the way it should or shouldn't be for anyone else, so please no lectures on how everyone is different because i realize to each their own...so, pls don't bother going there. The question was, would you lie or steal for your Master.....my answer was quite simple...yes.... do i believe that my Master would actually have me steal? lie? kill? cheat? ... it doesn't matter...He never has, probably never will, but that's beside the point. If i chose to trust Him with my life, why would i then question His orders? Even if it's something which on my own i would of never done, i am His now, so whatever i felt was wrong in the past is irrelevant to me from the moment i became His. ~hugs~ Babygirl

Faramir -> RE: Slave's Obedience (7/13/2005 12:40:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM I think that is the type of extreme 'what if?' question that is often asked of the M/s relationship, in order to push the fabric of it to tearing. I don't really view them in a serious manner, because they're akin in my mind to the 'would you approve of abortion if you knew the child would grow up to be Hitler' type of conundrums. ~ Elektra ad absurdum

JerryInTampa -> RE: Slave's Obedience (7/13/2005 12:57:38 PM)
quote: The question was, would you lie or steal for your Master.....my answer was quite simple...yes.... do i believe that my Master would actually have me steal? lie? kill? cheat? ... it doesn't matter...He never has, probably never will, but that's beside the point. If i chose to trust Him with my life, why would i then question His orders? Even if it's something which on my own i would of never done, i am His now, so whatever i felt was wrong in the past is irrelevant to me from the moment i became His. The bond so many of us love. The problem is that so many do indeed give it to the wrong person. 'nilla and lifestyle, many people have horrible taste in partners.

Tormentius -> RE: Slave's Obedience (7/13/2005 3:18:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LordNeuf Hmm lets see. I consider Gor to be merely fantasy and has no true meaning in a 24/7 enviorment. I agree. People who take it so seriously amuse me to no end and usually remind me of the folks dressed up as Star Trek characters.

Tempestspet -> RE: Slave's Obedience (7/13/2005 3:31:25 PM)
I suppose I could say the answer is yes, I'd do anything for my Master...because I made the choice...for life... to belong to him, and submit to him. But I also know without a single doubt, that my Master is not a moron, monster, or that irresponsible aprehensible kind of person that would ask me to do things that would break the law that way. Again, like others have said, know who you are with and make sure before you hand them your moral, spiritual, and emotional life... your life period... that their morals, and standards, ideals...that those things all match who you are. If you are the type that would lie, cheat, steal, kill etc... then having a Master that would ask that of you....wouldn't bother you, would it? You would be doing that stuff anyways.... Tempest's pet jennifer

EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Slave's Obedience (7/13/2005 3:46:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tempestspet If you are the type that would lie, cheat, steal, kill etc... then having a Master that would ask that of you....wouldn't bother you, would it? You would be doing that stuff anyways.... Tempest's pet jennifer Knowing the reality that you WOULD lie cheat steal or kill does not make you the "type" to lie cheat steal or kill. Most mothers would be willing to kill for the safety of their children, that doesn't make them the type to go killing for giggles.

Tempestspet -> RE: Slave's Obedience (7/13/2005 3:56:40 PM)
laughs... Maybe I am having problems being clear today..... because that is not what was intended in that quote. My point.... was to know who you are with. Make sure you choose someone who matches your own personal beliefs and such....and you wouldn't have a problem. You wouldn't have to sit around wondering about this kind of stuff. I happen to know who I am involved with. I ...know... that he would not ask me to do something that irresponsible. It makes me laugh to even ponder it. That... is what was intended, and should have been understood in reading my post in entirety, and not just choosing one statement out of the whole post to pick apart. Tempest's pet jennifer

softandshy -> RE: Slave's Obedience (7/13/2005 4:07:02 PM)
i like the way you speak Emerald. You're right, there are those for whom i would kill; i wouldn't hesitate to kill or die for my children if it were necessary even now that they are mostly grown, nor would i hesitate to protect any child who was in such danger in any manner that i could. It's simply part of me. i've already wound up confronting angry parents because of it. In all other respects i am extremely gentle, pacifistic even. It doesn't occur to me to strike out unless a child is in danger. i'm the kind of person who cannot squash most bugs, and i could not trust someone who commanded me to take a life (that wasn't a roach or a spider), or even injure another person. That is insanity in my book, and it would cause me leave the relationship. i won't cheat, lie, or steal on command either. i am capable of it, have done all three, but these are things i work to avoid. If i were asked to do them by a Dominant, i'd have real issues with that because it goes against my personal ethos, unless it's the only way i can protect a life. That's why i wouldn't accept a collar from a Dominant i felt capable of commanding something of the sort. It comes back to matching a value set.

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