RE: Spirituality and BDSM

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Aswad -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/6/2007 3:20:02 AM)
You're welcome, Cyndi. I'm glad you liked it. As for Gnosticism, it is concerned with gnosis (inner enlightenment) and transcendence. Certain flavours, like the Albigensian heresy, posit that the Creator is actually evil, and call it the Demiurge, stating that the creation of physical reality is an act to entrap the spirit in a cycle of reincarnation, and that the purpose of spirituality is to escape the prison of the flesh. As for Zoroastrianism, it deals with the conflict between good (order) and evil (chaos) by way of human proxies, where free will is what determines the outcome of this conflict before the universe finally reunites into the original being of creation, and free will is posited as the only instrument of happiness. If you're familiar with the Wheel of Time book series, that draws heavily on the Zoroastric faith and mythology (along with about a billion others, but this one is a rather prominent one). Health, al-Aswad.

Stephann -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/6/2007 3:54:21 AM)
ORIGINAL: Bobkgin Stephan, I agree with you that "God" (the Great Spirit, Gaia, etc) is at the end of many paths. Do you believe they all stem from a common source known to our prehistoric human ancestors and has since mutated into the various belief systems we have today? Or do you believe this spirit/god is constantly being re-discovered and described in terminology relevant to the times? Or something else? No matter how early humans splintered off, there have always been Gods. I believe that this is probably stems from a social necessity for something 'greater' to help bind groups together, than any originating common belief. I don't hold much stock in the notion of 'ancient wisdom.' My own belief in God, though, stems more from personal observation of the universe; things work a little too perfect, for me to believe they are random. Stephan

Cyntilating -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/6/2007 4:07:36 AM)
Bob [The topic for this thread is how does your spiritual/religious beliefs feed into BDSM, and how does BDSM further your spiritual/religious growth. Or do you find there is no connection at all? ] (its been a heck of a work week and I haven't kept up on the SS&C thread you refer to...will try to do that later ).. I feel and have a deep spirituality...about myself, the world I exist in ( right now) and towards those that live in it around me.. My belief system has evolved and is found in many sources, as opposed to one book or certain docturines... I don't consider myself religious ( as in organized religion).. does my spirituality lend itself to what I find in bdsm/WIIWD ? yes. in touch with the deepest places and emotions that dwell inside me. pretense and self-centeredness stripped away. my physical self ( and all material and social trappings) irrelevant and subjugated so that my emotional self is foremost and free, Feeling who I am at my core and of 'my' truth. In essence feeling my spirit. wiiwd is not the only place or way I am in touch with my spirit..or my spirituality....but it is one of the places..yes. re: my inclination towards roles in my d/s relationship ( preference) > I find it interesting that of the "religions" that I have explored in the past, the 2 that I have found the most inspiring and compelling( to me ) have had a strong patriarchal presence in their family dynamics.. ie Mormon Native American Indian culture and spirituality.

BDsbabygirl -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/6/2007 4:23:40 AM)
As a "spiritual" Christian rather than a "religious" one, I find that Christianity plays a role in everything I do, even if only passively. There are many threads on here that note that one just is a Dom or a sub, whether they're in a scene, eating dinner, or watching a movie at the theater; I feel the same way about my faith - I always am a Christian, even when I'm picking out my clothes and not using my Christianity to divine which outfit is best. Since I started along the BDSM path, I've actually found that it has enhanced my beliefs and made them easier to follow. Not to get "preachy" or start quoting scripture right and left, but the Good Book does tell wives to "submit" to their husbands and, likewise, for husbands to care for their wives as they would themselves. Though I am not married to my Dom (don't know that I ever will marry again, two times ended terribly but the third could be the charm!), I am glad to know that our power exchange is completely sanctioned by the Word. In fact, before I discovered this lifestyle, I had a lot of trouble following that admonition; I would naturally yield to whoever I was with, but not as much as I suppose the Word - and definitely this lifestyle the way we (He and i) do it - would have me do it. So I've found that this way of living actually enables me to better follow my guide to living. The Word also says - as was noted on someone else's post, forget whose, sorry - that a servant/slave should obey their Master, as it is, by proxy, following God. In the biblical sense, it probably referred to a slave akin to the southern slave from a few generations back, but I fully believe it can also be referenced in WIIWD. Lastly, I also find that living this way has made it easier to submit to God, for if I can follow an imperfect man, how much easier is it to follow the perfect One? And no, there are not times (yet?) that I'm stuck with "do I follow Big Daddy or do I follow God" (for the record, I would choose God and explain to BD, who would completely understand, even if he would punish me), for I made sure I chose One who is like-minded and won't 'order' me to do something that I am against, whether for spiritual or for personal reasons. Many of my hard limits, in fact, are based on my spiritual walk. As for Doms following God and submitting to Him, I don't think it's so contradictory (not trying to start an argument, just hoping to be helpful). As one who submits to God, one doesn't take all matters to Him (no micromanagement there!), so it's not as though one would go to God before leading a sub in everything they're leading them in. So, if a sub asks "What would you like for dinner, Master?), a Dom does not need to get on knees and pray about it, he just answers (even if the Dom doesn't eat pork due to religious beliefs, he just answers with that in mind). One also does not need to go to God for help or permission on how to run a certain scene. To my mind, walking the spiritual walk is about having a set of morals, guidelines, and ways of doing things overall, rather than having a set list of rules (though there are those), so one can just live life with those in mind. Sounds to me like something Doms already do, right? In a manner of speaking, you are in fact submitting - to your own personal morals, to your own personal viewpoints, to your own personal set of rules (i.e. as a Dom, do you take your sub/slave's wants into consideration or no or sometimes? Whatever your answer, it's a "rule" that you are submitting to, nevermind the fact that you made it) and, in a way, to the sub's hard limits. And here's a final thought [along those lines] on this -- however it is that you Dom, you got some things from somewhere, especially if you follow the tenet of "Safe, Sane, and Consentual", for you didn't come up with that, did you? Yet you do submit to it. Here's another for instance; my Dom hates hates hates to see me cry, thinks males are not supposed to make females cry if they can help it (unless it's a happy cry) and he lives by that. Where do you think he got that from? Bet he wasn't born from the womb with that thought ... Sorry, but I just thought of one more thing, but it is the final thought -- even as a Dom, you do submit to others, be it your parents, boss, or whatever, right?, for you are not the Dom to everybody, even though dominance is a trait you always have. In the same way, you can submit to God without invalidating your Domness to your sub. Thanx for asking, bob, and thanx to all who listened...er, read. [sm=hello.gif]

Bobkgin -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/6/2007 4:32:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord I gave up my Catholism about two or three years before starting the D/s lifestyle. I often wonder, though.. how odd it would feel to be a lesser power, to be a lesser power before my slave than the Christ or the God. In a way, Christians are subs to their hypothetical God. I understand that tops would have little problem being a sub to another, but.. the stark contrast between being entirely submissive to a God while being Dominant to another, ruled by this God, yet not gifted by this God.. this strikes me as a contradiction. As many likely are well aware, I have more than mild reservations about religion itself. Beyond this, though, I haven't concluded that one can not be both a Dom and a Christian (or similar religion); I just find the combination to be odd and difficult to reconcile (as the God will always be above the Dom). For religions which have no "God"-type figure, I see less difficulties. Such as, Aswad, if you don't mind me using an example concerning you- I can tell how Aswad would be able to adhere to the tenants of his belief system (or, rather, I can't see any difficulties, though I won't claim to be fully educated on the entirety of such). Religions which embrace elemental, spiritual, or other similar type of belief- but not the praise of higher beings/powers to which devotees are to be subjugated to- seem to lack the complication I see with the Christian/BDSM combination. I find being able to act in something with a sub contributes to the relationship. I can see a common interest in spirtuality as a possible means to such common ground. It would be interesting to see how Christian couple reconcile the complication. (To me, it seems that the Dom might take a position similar to an alpha slave- in control of his slaves, but still absolutely submissive to the Master, or God.) I can see some Christians being alright with being submissive to the hypothetical God. After all, he's supposed to be the eternal ultimate power of creation. I can field this one, CL. There are quotes from Paul where he claims that all authority is derived from God, and bestowed by God. Thus we are all to obey authority above us as if we were obeying God. There are other quotes from Paul that say just as a God is in authority over a man, a man is in authority over his wife. If one is tempted to listen to Paul, it would mean that a sub should obey a dom as God's representative, and a dom should obey God. Note I am not a Christian and do not share in these beliefs (and I hope the Dommes will return those rotten tomatos to whence they came). [;)]

Aswad -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/6/2007 4:43:12 AM)
Paul is one of the mistakes that have plagued Christianity since it was left in the "care" of the apostles. That's what one gets for letting a beurocrat micromanage a spiritual tradition...

Bobkgin -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/6/2007 4:44:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin A lot of meat on those 'bare bones'. [:)] If you are willing, I hope you'll illuminate the above quote. Bear in mind that I'm still sorting out the implications and details myself, so this may not be representative of the final result. It still deals with the fundamental assumption that free will was the ultimate gift in the course of creation, but firmly establishes a natural (and apparently universal) spiritual path, along with addressing certain fundamental human needs in regard to power dynamics and their role in interpersonal relationships and romance. As viewed from without, more personal and liberal than Catholic doctrine and praxis, but equally "high church". As viewed from within, it corrects the mistakes in the horizontal transmission by reverting to vertical transmission and a living tradition that has been derived from that, and establishes a new Covenant. It also describes the way toward a diverse but homogenous praxis that covers all the needs covered by current Abrahamic churches, and a possible point of convergence for efforts to further acceptance of human sexual and interpersonal diversity. At the same time, it recognizes some major shortcomings of modern society, and rejects its secularization along with the modern tendency toward statism as an implicit religion. That doesn't really describe it very well, but if you're familiar with Abrahamic theology, and have experienced sa/satori as well as temporary nibbana/mushin/fudoshin, along with some evolutionary psychology, then you should have the grounds to derive the bulk of the seed thoughts from what I have said here. If not, feel free to PM me for more. Some of the implications are such that I'm not comfortable discussing it publicly until I have finished the work I am currently doing, the reasons for which are probably clear to those I have discussed it with in private. When I am done, I will probably post a rather extensive piece on it on CM. My apologies for the brevity on this thread. It has been my observation that most who follow Abrahamic faiths and practice BDSM at the same time, have frequently neglected to fully integrate their practices with their faith, leaving it at "it is okay", without following the mutual implications between this assertion and their faith. Which is quite fine, but does not (IMHO) realize the full potential associated with how BDSM is an intrinsic element of the faith as is, and how it fits with the full spiritual, mental and physical realization of human potential. I found the place for BDSM/religion in relation to both the masses and the spiritual people, and think this new approach will add value to the lives of those who wish to participate. At the moment, though, there is a lot to sort out. Not everyone gets burning bushes, visions or angels delivering a full list of precepts and tenets right into their laps. Some have to make do with mere revelation, and take it from there. Though, of course, I'll be only too happy to let you know if my fire-extinguisher fails to put out my banzai tree. [:D] Forgive me for being dense, but it appears to me you've talked around what "it" is. I can see some of what you think it will do to modern religious belief, and from whence it came. But not much on what it is. That is not a complaint, as you also make clear it is evolving. Thus, it is not in a finished state. Just making sure I understood what you've said thus far.

Aswad -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/6/2007 4:50:47 AM)
That's a bit excessive quoting, Bob. [;)] quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin Forgive me for being dense, but it appears to me you've talked around what "it" is. I can see some of what you think it will do to modern religious belief, and from whence it came. But not much on what it is. Not what it will do to modern religious belief; I doubt it will have much impact on that. On where it fits, and what form it takes, basically. quote: That is not a complaint, as you also make clear it is evolving. Thus, it is not in a finished state. Just making sure I understood what you've said thus far. ~nods~ I can supply some more details in private, if you're ready to give me the funny look. [:D]

Aswad -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/6/2007 4:51:49 AM)
Added to the bit about Paul: To elaborate on something that Paul obviously didn't know, a certain kind of authority does derive from G*d, among other things in the sense that s/he has made us in such a manner that the human genome occasionally turns up individuals that makes them quite naturally inclined toward dominance over others, and others such that they submit. Either way, I stand by my position that Paul was a POS who fucked up a good thing.

BDsbabygirl -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/6/2007 4:53:15 AM)
OK, OK, this is really my final thought as to the Dom subbing to God thing -- to me, the biggest part of my Christian walk is my relationship with God. So, just as a Dom can have a relationship with, say, a buddy that his sub has no dealings with, the Dom can have a relationship with God "on the side", so to speak, though I personally would hope that my Dom would bring that which he gets from God to our relationship. Heck, people do that anyway, vanilla or BDSM. How many times have guys talked amongst themselves and one guy says "I wouldn't take that from my woman" and another guy, bolstered up, stops "taking it" from his? Now granted, this probably happens more in the vanilla world, but if there is anything you have taken from others (which I would guess would be fairly often as there are plenty of "how would you handle this" or "any suggestions, please" boards, from Doms, here), then you have - in a way - 'submitted', if only to someone else's thoughts on a subject, and you have taken that to your sub/slave/relationship. Likewise with God.

Bobkgin -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/6/2007 5:03:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cyntilating re: my inclination towards roles in my d/s relationship ( preference) > I find it interesting that of the "religions" that I have explored in the past, the 2 that I have found the most inspiring and compelling( to me ) have had a strong patriarchal presence in their family dynamics.. ie Mormon Native American Indian culture and spirituality. I am curious as to which came first for you: bdsm or the religions.

Bobkgin -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/6/2007 5:14:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BDsbabygirl ... even as a Dom, you do submit to others, be it your parents, boss, or whatever, right?, for you are not the Dom to everybody, even though dominance is a trait you always have. In the same way, you can submit to God without invalidating your Domness to your sub. Thanx for asking, bob, and thanx to all who listened...er, read. [sm=hello.gif] Thank you, BG, for putting such effort into your post. I've retained the above quote because I think you answer those who wonder how Christianity and Domliness can mesh better than I did. Of course, some domlys do not have a boss or parents. But society has many authorities to whom we must submit under certain conditions (not many escape submitting to the Tax_Man_Dom) [;)]

Bobkgin -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/6/2007 5:19:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad Paul is one of the mistakes that have plagued Christianity since it was left in the "care" of the apostles. That's what one gets for letting a beurocrat micromanage a spiritual tradition... Aswad, I can write a long tome on my thoughts regarding Paul. But I stipulated that all beliefs are valid for the sake of this discussion and asked that we keep the focus on what we believe, not what we disbelieve with respect to the religions and faiths of others. This thread is to listen and learn and ask questions, not to invalidate and generate a lot of flame and smoke with little understanding/comprehension going on. If I wanted one of those threads I know where to go to find it, and it isn't here. Some thoughts to consider, I hope.

divi -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/6/2007 5:21:03 AM)
Being the devout Catholic girl that I am I will say this, the closest religion comes to me and bdsm is me screaming oh god oh god oh godddddddddddd

Bobkgin -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/6/2007 5:24:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad That's a bit excessive quoting, Bob. [;)] I'll tone it down a tad. [:)] quote: I can supply some more details in private, if you're ready to give me the funny look. [:D] wry smile Before we get to the "funny look": why "private"?

Bobkgin -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/6/2007 5:26:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad ... the human genome occasionally turns up individuals that makes them quite naturally inclined toward dominance over others, and others such that they submit. Have you a reference for this factoid? I'll be very surprised if they've found the "Dom Gene".

Bobkgin -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/6/2007 5:31:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: divi Being the devout Catholic girl that I am I will say this, the closest religion comes to me and bdsm is me screaming oh god oh god oh godddddddddddd Didn't Paul say women should remain silent in church? [;)]

Grlwithboy -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/6/2007 5:33:18 AM)
I just feel like my kink is part of how I'm made, what I am, and is a way to enjoy myself and get closer to other people I want to get closer to. As close to spirituality as I want to get is that I'm doing something that requires effort but feels effortless, and that's a kind of connection to the higher stuff, if there is.

BDsbabygirl -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/6/2007 5:36:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: divi Being the devout Catholic girl that I am I will say this, the closest religion comes to me and bdsm is me screaming oh god oh god oh godddddddddddd ROFLMAOOL

Bobkgin -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/6/2007 5:50:11 AM)
A few thoughts to no one in particular: I have long thought that Love and Fear were at the root of all religious/spiritual systems. Love and Fear dwells within each of us. To the degree we listen to Love, we do not listen to Fear. To the degree we listen to Fear, we do not listen to Love. We are the arbiters. In every situation, we choose Love, or we choose Fear. Religious/spiritual systems are about which choice to make, and (at least in some cases) why these choices should be made. That is why these systems are authority-driven. Each has a final authority figure whose pronouncements are to be trusted above all others. It can be anything from God to Gaia to ourselves. For myself, those doctrines that promote Love are beneficial, whereas those that promote Fear are not. Just some thoughts to contribute to the discussion.

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