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RE: white lies - 9/9/2007 6:53:29 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
luci,
A Master/slave relationship shouldn't be on the same level as a casual relationship

Totally agreed.
quote:

Being afraid to answer honestly to my slave or her making a misrepresentation to me is not a appropriate under any circumstance.  It would show a weakness in our relationship

Opinions differ, of course.  I don't think it's about "being afraid" to be honest.  Reading Ownedgirlie's post explains it much better than I can.  Would it have made her master a "better" man to have been so brutally honest with her that he diminished her at a time when she frankly doesn't seem like she could have borne that?  I don't think so.  According to her, he didn't set out to spin great deceptions and tell enormous untruths.  He perhaps just held back a bit and put a spin on things so that they came out in a positive and not hurtful, destructive way.  To me, there's a big difference there.  In my humble opinion, it's not showing any weakness in you or your relationship to handle someone with kid gloves at a time in her life when she may need that. 
quote:

A selective lie discovered makes it easy to loose trust - why risk it?

Again, refer to Ownedgirlie's response.  She began to know what was going on and she can fully recognize it now.  It doesn't mean that anything was "risked."  It showed her just how much her master loves her and what he was willing to do to get her to become the person she is today.  I see your point about how there shouldn't be dishonesty between partners, especially in an M/s relationship.  However, I do believe there are some minor instances where it is not destructive and may, in fact, be preferable.  Just my take on it.  Thanks for the food for thought, Merc................luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: white lies - 9/10/2007 6:04:42 AM   
liorsnava


Posts: 35
Joined: 8/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

It's ok as long as your slave has been told you will be telling her white lies on occasion to protect her feelings.


wouldn't you always wonder, though, what was the "white lie" and what wasn't ? i mean, i would always think to myself, was what Master just said really what He means, or is He saying that to be "nice" ? it would be easier i think, to not say anything at all then( regarding being up front about the possibility of telling these lies ). if the person is secure enough in her/his own skin, then i don't even see the need for white lies to begin with... and if they aren't, then maybe they need to work on that issue ... just my opinion.. and we all know about opinions, don't we ~grin~

_____________________________

Lior's girl, nava

"in His light i stand as His cherished one"

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: white lies - 9/10/2007 6:15:07 AM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		I think in the appropriate circumstances it is okay. If you were given a present of a sweater in a color you found hideous, it's okay to say that it doesn't seem to fit quite right and that's why you're exchanging it.

After all, saying you hate it just says you think she has poor taste.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: white lies - 9/10/2007 6:24:08 AM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline 		I don't have any problems with the occasional use of white lies or what I've always called 'social lies'.

Social lies to me, are those statements that change nothing but let someone feel good about themselves.

Aunt Gerdi has a gigantic rear end and usually is encased in polyester. I tell her she looks wonderful and she is happy. In reality she looks a bit like a sausage ready to burst.
Why would I say she looks ready to explode?

The neighbor kidlet shows you a picture she drew. You can't tell what it is but you agree with her that it is wonderful.
Why tell the impling it's wretched and has no perspective?

Someone asks what I am thinking.
There is no need to engage in a conversation about my real thoughts so I say I'm thinking of 'whatever'. Keep in mind if my dom asked me I would be truthful.

_____________________________


~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).




(in reply to Celeste43)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: white lies - 9/10/2007 6:43:03 AM   
whipingherfeet


Posts: 202
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline 		ypu need your soles of your feet beat for laying

(in reply to TennesseeRain)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: white lies - 9/10/2007 6:55:04 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Would it have made her master a "better" man to have been so brutally honest with her that he diminished her at a time when she frankly doesn't seem like she could have borne that?  I don't think so.  According to her, he didn't set out to spin great deceptions and tell enormous untruths.  He perhaps just held back a bit and put a spin on things so that they came out in a positive and not hurtful, destructive way. 
\
luci,
The reverse is true? Her Master is a "better" man for lying? Never seen liar, or the ability to tell "while lies" as a quality trait desirable for a Dom/Master.

The truth always makes the relationship better, stronger, and, by inclusive definition, the people in the relationship become stronger too by being able to rely on that truth. Self esteem based on the need for a lie is of no value. I never could understand the rationalization of lies for improving another's self esteem. What value does it have? It makes the person's improved sense of self based on a lie. How can any compliment or reference to improvement ever not contain doubt? How can trust ever be absolute?

This is referencing 'white lie' - a lie alleged not to hurt anyone. The other option to a "white lie" isn't cruel or mocking truth. It is simple honesty;. simple truth with simple understanding and acceptance of that truth. An honesty that a slave/sub, Dom/Master can rely upon. I demand that reliability even if it means hearing things that I don't want to hear or face. Those things represent reality. Reality is cruel and brutal sometimes. I expect my relationship to have to face cruel and brutal reality. I can only rely on my partner if I know with absolute certainty and trust that I'm relying on truth. I also know that truth can never hurt my relationship - I'm confident that any lie can.

(in reply to slaveluci)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: white lies - 9/10/2007 7:05:04 AM   
jaxnsax


Posts: 106
Status: offline
Greetings
I, personally, do not think it is EVER ok to tell a lie of any kind; whether it be a small one to protect a surprise, or a larger one to protect someone’s feelings. A lie is a lie; eventually, lying does nothing but build resentment on the part of the person being lied to. Just my opinion of course.
                                                                  jaxon

(in reply to TennesseeRain)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: white lies - 9/10/2007 7:57:37 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: liorsnava

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

It's ok as long as your slave has been told you will be telling her white lies on occasion to protect her feelings.


wouldn't you always wonder, though, what was the "white lie" and what wasn't ? i mean, i would always think to myself, was what Master just said really what He means, or is He saying that to be "nice" ? it would be easier i think, to not say anything at all then( regarding being up front about the possibility of telling these lies ). if the person is secure enough in her/his own skin, then i don't even see the need for white lies to begin with... and if they aren't, then maybe they need to work on that issue ... just my opinion.. and we all know about opinions, don't we ~grin~

Which is why if you or I were told by a master that this is what our relationship would entail, we would politely decline.

The only person who needs to be ok with the white lies of protection is the one who agrees to be in that relationship.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to liorsnava)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: white lies - 9/10/2007 8:13:30 AM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		so if you enter the relationship being informed that you will be told "white lies" for your own protection and you consent to it...you have no pitty pot to shit in should you change your mind later in the relationship...but without the informed consent part...its kind of on shakey ground for me....

_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: white lies - 9/10/2007 8:16:27 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

The only person who needs to be ok with the white lies of protection is the one who agrees to be in that relationship.

LA,
Wouldn't that person who "agrees" also be a person who can't accept, or doesn't want to face the truth?

These "while lies" may be 'white' with good intentions going in, but similar to eating very spicy food - no matter how good they taste going in, its the coming out that causes pain.

Your example of a person feeling "ok" hearing them is being "protected" but they are also being manipulated. Again - it can be consensual manipulation but it is still manipulation and a lie you have to tell yourself in order for it to work. You rarely hear of situations where a person complains about being in a relationship of total honesty. You hear a whole lot from those that were told lies - color not a consideration.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: white lies - 9/10/2007 8:29:27 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
LA,
Wouldn't that person who "agrees" also be a person who can't accept, or doesn't want to face the truth?

Probably.

quote:

Your example of a person feeling "ok" hearing them is being "protected" but they are also being manipulated. Again - it can be consensual manipulation but it is still manipulation and a lie you have to tell yourself in order for it to work. You rarely hear of situations where a person complains about being in a relationship of total honesty. You hear a whole lot from those that were told lies - color not a consideration.

I don't think it's a good IDEA or something that will really work or be fulfilling in the long term- but I'm not going to say someone shouldn't do it or tell them it's wrong.  I've found from multiple threads on communication and honesty on these boards and lots of masters and slaves are actually quite happy to withhold and not be open about things- of any size or color.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: white lies - 9/10/2007 8:31:36 AM   
liorsnava


Posts: 35
Joined: 8/10/2007
Status: offline 		i guess i maintain my opinion that no lie is ever a good lie, and lies only breed mistrust eventually. it doesn't just go for our lifestyle but for everyone... vanilla or not.having been on both sides of that fence, i prefer the total honesty over anything else. trust is very hard to gain, and very easy to lose. i think if the person on the other end of the lie were to ever find out, then they would wonder what other lies have been told, and there starts the spiral of doubt.

_____________________________

Lior's girl, nava

"in His light i stand as His cherished one"

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: white lies - 9/10/2007 8:36:27 AM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline 		We're all liars. Period. Not one person on any thread here can honestly say they have NEVER lied. And I can promise if you tried to ask someone anywhere at any given time you won't be able to find someone who hasn't lied. So...are lies a bad thing?

Instinctively we want to say "yes they're bad." However, is it abd to tell a UM that Santa is real? Is it bad to tell a UM that Daddy and Mommy just didn't love eachother anymore over telling them that Mommy had an affair and is now pregnant and Daddy is pissed? I think when dealing with adult relationships lies are still a big thing that happens. A lie is a misleading mention of anything. That means when you omit part of the truth you have lied. We lie all the time.

(in reply to liorsnava)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: white lies - 9/10/2007 8:51:23 AM   
MstrSkyWoIf


Posts: 238
Joined: 10/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tennessee Rain

Do you think it is ok to tell your sub a "white lie" to protect her feelings?  If so, how do you define a "white lie" and where do you draw the line?


No and I draw the line at that, no lie big or small white or black is ok.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

I guess some would say people should never ask another's opinion if they don't want the "truth." 

luciA
Master/slave relationship shouldn't be on the same level as a casual relationship. Being afraid to answer honestly to my slave or her making a misrepresentation to me is not a appropriate under any circumstance. It would show a weakness in our relationship. Truth is true whether you hear it or not. A selective lie discovered makes it easy to loose trust - why risk it? 


I agree a lie is a lie and any lie erodes trust and trust must be the foundation of any relationship lifestyle or not......

< Message edited by MstrSkyWoIf -- 9/10/2007 8:57:14 AM >

_____________________________

this is just my opinion, I do not claim to be an expert on life. I am just Me, Love me or Hate me I really don't care. I am the culmination of my life's experiences. I am an ever changing block of clay molded by life's experiences on a daily basis.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: white lies - 9/10/2007 8:52:57 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:


The reverse is true? Her Master is a "better" man for lying? Never seen liar, or the ability to tell "while lies" as a quality trait desirable for a Dom/Master.

I think you both need to reread my post.  He said my efforts were pleasing him. He chose not to tell me that I was, at the time, nowhere close to being what he wanted me to be.  Maybe if you read what I wrote in the Worthless thread you will see why.  He gently brought me along.  Doing otherwise would have finished me off.  So yeah, I think it was better and admirable that he did that.

It is reeeeally rare that he'll do that anymore.  For example, if I've written a piece that didn't appeal to him at all (I write a lot for him), he'll likely say, "It wasn't your best effort."  or "It didn't measure up to what I'm accustomed from you" instead of "That totally sucked!"  Only once, when he was pissed, did he say, "That was the worst thing you have written, ever, and I'm appalled."  He was right.  It was rotten.  And we delved into why.  But if he had always told me my work was crap, especially when I was still emerging from my darkness, I would have never seen my own potential.

Everyone has their reasons and methods.  I don't expect everyone to agree with his.  And people don't have to!  That's the beauty of it.  People don't know me as he does, nor the details of my history and the details of its effect on me.  Just like I don't know this of others (which is why you'll so rarely, if ever, see me critiquing what someone else does regarding his/her slave). 

Regardless, I wrote "white lies" in quotes in my post because I don't really see that as a lie.  I see it as being gentle.  But if he ever felt the real need to actually lie to me, I'd trust he had a damn good reason.

But of course we're each entitled to what makes a good Master. 

quote:


The truth always makes the relationship better, stronger, and, by inclusive definition, the people in the relationship become stronger too by being able to rely on that truth. Self esteem based on the need for a lie is of no value. I never could understand the rationalization of lies for improving another's self esteem. What value does it have? It makes the person's improved sense of self based on a lie. How can any compliment or reference to improvement ever not contain doubt? How can trust ever be absolute?

I don't know, Merc, since my development and risen self esteem were not based on lies, and since he so rarely offers up great compliments that when he does, I know it is is exactly what he is thinking. 

Funny though, it was because of lies that my esteem tanked so many years ago.  It was my Master's ability for me to see my own inner truth that brought it back up.

quote:


This is referencing 'white lie' - a lie alleged not to hurt anyone. The other option to a "white lie" isn't cruel or mocking truth. It is simple honesty;. simple truth with simple understanding and acceptance of that truth. An honesty that a slave/sub, Dom/Master can rely upon. I demand that reliability even if it means hearing things that I don't want to hear or face. Those things represent reality. Reality is cruel and brutal sometimes. I expect my relationship to have to face cruel and brutal reality. I can only rely on my partner if I know with absolute certainty and trust that I'm relying on truth. I also know that truth can never hurt my relationship - I'm confident that any lie can.


In some cases, "simple honesty" can be hurtful.  Ever see "Liar Liar?"  (funny movie, btw).  In my case, I trust my Master.  And I have never felt loved so much nor been allowed to love so much and truly flourish as a complete person before coming into his world. 

I'm glad what you're doing works so well for you.  What my Master is doing has worked pretty darn well for us, too. 


Edited to correct some typos

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 9/10/2007 9:15:21 AM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: white lies - 9/10/2007 9:35:47 AM   
liorsnava


Posts: 35
Joined: 8/10/2007
Status: offline 		we all have our opinions on what will or will not, work for us.. and that is the way it should be. the way i see it here is, everyone was offering their opinions.just because i could never accept any lie from my Master ( been there ) does not mean that you should not either, and any deviation from MY opinion is just wrong. it isnt so. the wonderful thing about people ( not just lifestyle ) is that we all know what works for us, as individuals.. and every relationship is as individual as the people in it. if this worked for you, then i say, congratulations in knowing yourself and trusting your Master enough to do what was/is right.... for YOU ~grin~


_____________________________

Lior's girl, nava

"in His light i stand as His cherished one"

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: white lies - 9/10/2007 9:42:17 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Oh most definitely, Liorsnava.  He has brought me to be someone I like again.  It was just weird to wake up this morning and see my Master as a subject matter in a couple of posts, lol, given that he has never posted here.  No biggie though, I was just trying to clarify what I had originally meant and where it was coming from, so I wasn't misrepresenting him.  Heck, I don't expect everyone to agree with him or even like him!  As long as I do, that's all that counts

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 9/10/2007 9:43:55 AM >

(in reply to liorsnava)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: white lies - 9/10/2007 9:50:30 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen
We're all liars. Period. Not one person on any thread here can honestly say they have NEVER lied. And I can promise if you tried to ask someone anywhere at any given time you won't be able to find someone who hasn't lied. So...are lies a bad thing?

Instinctively we want to say "yes they're bad." However, is it abd to tell a UM that Santa is real? Is it bad to tell a UM that Daddy and Mommy just didn't love eachother anymore over telling them that Mommy had an affair and is now pregnant and Daddy is pissed? I think when dealing with adult relationships lies are still a big thing that happens. A lie is a misleading mention of anything. That means when you omit part of the truth you have lied. We lie all the time.

I'm a great liar.  Seriously.  I do it very easily and very well.  I can think of at least 4 times this weekend alone where I told a lie to someone directly in person.

I've never lied to my partner, on anything- except when he knew it was a lie and we were playing a fun game together.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to BoiJen)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: white lies - 9/10/2007 10:18:41 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

I'm not going to say someone shouldn't do it or tell them it's wrong.

LA,
There was no use or implication of of the 'w' word in the opinions given.

The focus was very specific, a committed, trusting, relationship between people. It is a reflection of our standard - no lifestyle 'dogma' implied.
quote:

ownedgirlie: I think you both need to reread my post.

o.g.,
Reading your post an infinite amount of times won't change my opinion. It is only my opinion, reflecting a requirement I have for my relationship.

quote:

He said my efforts were pleasing him.
Have the parameters of the original question changed? Are we equating the acknowledgment of effort equated to a "white lie"? I encourage beth's efforts all the time in everything ranging from a new dinner recipe to trying a new nail color. But if the effort results in something I don't like - she'll know it, right along with knowing that the effort is appreciated. I don't see appreciating effort that doesn't end as anticipated as a lie, unless the appreciation omits the fact the end result was bad.

For example, I HATE Brussels sprouts. Lets say when we first met and she cooked for me the first time is she cooked made Brussels sprouts as a side dish and it took her 2 hours to prepare and I smiled and ate them because I "appreciated her effort". she mentally records my reaction for later reference. Four years go by and I come home from work greeted with a naked kneeling beth holding out a 'Brussels Sprout Casserole Surprise". I forgot my "innocent" white lie and, since its been a bad day at the office, I say something to the effect of "That's disgusting! What the hell were you thinking? Get dressed we're going out to eat! And while you're at it change you nail polish." All of a sudden any other 'mental record' she trusted to be true and accurate can and should be viewed with doubt. I don't want to risk that possibility. My, and our, position stems from that perspective. Again - it is only mine and ours. 

I don't want beth to have to figure out when I'm telling her the truth and when I'm lying. I sure don't want to have to consider any other possibility when she talks to me or answers my questions. I like the reliability of knowing whatever we are feeling, thinking, considering, worrying about, can be said to the other without fear.

We have both made best efforts that failed to live up to our expectations when we initiated that effort. No harm no foul in that attempt and usually it ends up with us both laughing about the result. The range extends from 'fallen' birthday cake to attempts at intricate shibari. At no time was 'best effort' doubted. All the time 'best effort' is recognized. NEVER does 'best effort' rationalize a lie - with us.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: white lies - 9/10/2007 10:36:42 AM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		i know this isn't the topic but i mentioned earlier a saying i go by and i think perhaps i should give some examples...the saying by the way is "rigorous honesty, not rediculous honesty"  another related thing is, its not what you say, its how you say it..."I" statements are very helpful...

question - do these pants make me look fat?
truth - nope, your fat makes you look fat...
better - i don't think those pants aren't very flattering, would you like me to help you find something that suits you better?

question - is santa clause real?
truth - pretty sure he's not, but i really don't know
better - i'd like to think so, what do you think?

question - what do you think of my picture? (from a small child)
truth - i can't tell if its a house or a cat or a space shuttle...
better - its very original/colorful, can you tell me about it? or is there a story to go with it?

question - what did you think of my brussel sprouts?
truth - you hated them
better - i appreciated your effort and i tried them, but i have never liked brussel sprouts and i just can't get past my own wall with them...

just the way i try and deal with things...

chelle

< Message edited by chellekitty -- 9/10/2007 10:37:58 AM >

_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 40
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