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A question for SCAdians...fealty vs collaring - 9/11/2007 6:41:41 AM   
GhitaAmati


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Many of you are probably going to think Im nuts for evening wondering about this....but what can I say, I've never admitted to having a full basket....

For those of you in the SCA...have you ever had a problem with swearing fealty, do you feel like your somehow "cheating" on your Dom? Ok, so maybe this is just me...but even my Sir has made mention (he tries to do it jokingly but I wonder if he isnt really bothered by it somehow) about me being more collared to my knight than I am to him. I mean I can definantly see tons of similarities to the way the dynamics between my knight and I work, compared to the dynamics of a D/s relationship. I say Sir at the end of almost every sentance, I kneel to him occasionally, I accept all his training, compliments, and critizism, I get beaten by him on a regular basis, I jump at his every command, I help dress him, I wear what he tells me to wear, I help other people when he tells me to, the oath I swore to him has quite a few similarities to the vows I spoke to my husband on our wedding night......and one last issue that probably doesnt exist for most SCAdians and their Knight.....there is a bit of a sexual dynamic also....now yes I do know that my Knight is also into the D/s lifestyle, and is a Dom....and has best friends with my Sir for many many years....but lately...well....its been like at practices and events, Im having issues with "belonging" to both of them at the same time. There are times when orders for what I need to be doing with my time from both my Knight and my husband contradict....most of the time if I communicate and say, D asked me to do something, or M asked me to do something...they are OK with it....they seem to have a hell of alot less issues with this thing than I have....but has anyone else come accross this issue? How do you deal with it?

ghita

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RE: A question for SCAdians...fealty vs collaring - 9/11/2007 6:55:06 AM   
Alumbrado


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Well, first and foremost, the SCA is a re-enactment group. It is make believe, no matter how seriously any one person chooses to take that make believe. Would you see being an actress in a play as cheating on your real life partner?

And, the SCA doesn't require anyone to really swear fealty.  IIRC, even the play variety is only for those who want high rank or office.  And I'm pretty sure that those whose religion prohibits such swearing have been accomodated in the past.

As far as the sex goes, they don't call it 'As The Niche Turns' around here for nothing.



< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 9/11/2007 6:57:36 AM >

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RE: A question for SCAdians...fealty vs collaring - 9/11/2007 7:11:13 AM   
breatheasone


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I don' have any experience with SCA, however i would have a very hard time serving two "masters" for lack of better wording. A very good Book says... Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

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RE: A question for SCAdians...fealty vs collaring - 9/11/2007 7:18:35 AM   
e01n


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Nope. No issues at all...

Mostly because I gave on SCA years ago as a "re-creation" and instead focused on ARMA and Silver Sword... and just cooking and brewing.

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RE: A question for SCAdians...fealty vs collaring - 9/11/2007 7:24:03 AM   
Alumbrado


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What, no Amtgard?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3955486939380985268&q=amtgard

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 9/11/2007 7:25:02 AM >

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RE: A question for SCAdians...fealty vs collaring - 9/11/2007 7:31:30 AM   
e01n


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If I wanted that, I'd be playing Cthulhu Live!...

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RE: A question for SCAdians...fealty vs collaring - 9/11/2007 7:35:28 AM   
GhitaAmati


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I have no desire to run around whapping people with nerf swords....I like my rattan....

_____________________________

I said I was a submissive, I never said I was a GOOD submissive.


Sex without love is a meaningless experience, but as far as meaningless experiences go its pretty damn good.
~Woody Allen

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RE: A question for SCAdians...fealty vs collaring - 9/11/2007 7:42:17 AM   
Alumbrado


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Then you should hook up with these folks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6EZE_rmsQs


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RE: A question for SCAdians...fealty vs collaring - 9/11/2007 7:49:34 AM   
Demspotis


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Alumbrado is right that the SCA is "make believe"... but only so far. It is a game, but even so, the relationships between people can be very real, regardless of their being founded in a game. There are certainly people for whom BDSM role-playing is less real or sincere than SCA role-playing is for some. Both BDSM and SCA can be lifelong lifestyles with extraordinary commitment and investment. That being said, the SCA is intended to be a game - an elaborate, intricate, and long-term role-playing game - but a game, whereas BDSM includes many different kinds of relationships and play, some of which are nothing more than amusing flings and games to their participants, while others are true and sincere commitments, and everything in between.

As far as the OT - there are certain similarities, but also very significant differences, between fealty (either in real life or in the SCA) and collaring or submission. Fealty is personal allegiance of one free person to another, in which the one swearing fealty gives the other authority over oneself in exchange for certain benefits, all as part of a complex social order. This is best known from post-Roman-Empire European feudal societies, but has its roots in the Patron/client fealties found in most free European societies before that time as well.  Collaring and submission, when done sincerely, implies a greater difference in status, as one who is collared is not free (or, in BDSM, may be role-playing a subordinate status). Although both fealty and collaring are inherently dominance dynamics, they are of different types, between people of different degrees of status.

All that is in principle only, and doesn't really help with the underlying issue. I can't speak to the particular situation, since I'm not a sub, and the SCA knights that I've had training relationships (in the past, as I'm not currently active) with have been my father, my godfather, or in bits and pieces, others of my father's bloodbrothers... most of whom had been my father's squires before earning their spurs. So, the only SCA fealty I've had to worry about is my father, to whom I owe it anyway, in or out of SCA context.

Still, I will offer this advice to  GhitaAmati: if you are having issues with these conflicting loyalties, you should probably discuss it with both of them. It shouldn't be a difficult thing to resolve if, as you say, they seem to have much less difficulty with it than you do. It should be easy for them (or all three of you, as the case may be) to set up boundaries between their spheres of authority over you, so that you can avoid the feeling of conflict.

Best of luck!

~Demspotis

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RE: A question for SCAdians...fealty vs collaring - 9/11/2007 7:54:54 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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It really depends on how much you can flex your mind around it.  Most slaves are ok with being owned AND believing in and owing their souls to a singular god.

It also depends on what your owner/master feels.  If it can be included as part of "owning you and what you entail" then it's not a problem any more than a slave who has children and finds a master who accepts that and includes it as part of the package deal.

But, to some extent that might not be enough- your headspace just might reject the idea of being loyal and accountable to more than one person at a time.

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RE: A question for SCAdians...fealty vs collaring - 9/11/2007 2:47:13 PM   
welshwmn3


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I'm not reading ahead on the answers, so what I say may have already been said.

I myself have a problem with swearing fealty, but it has nothing to do with my collar.  My problems with swearing fealty (as in a general, the new king and queen have just been crowned and everybody is expected to swear fealty) is that I take my oaths very seriously.  I will not swear fealty to a person I don't know, or only know socially.  I have less problems with swearing fealty to the Crown/Kingdom, but that is in a grey area.  What if I move from one Kingdom in which I've sworn fealty to another?  The oath I swore isn't null and void just because I live in another Kingdom now.  So far I've not been put in that place (not having received any awards high enough to have to deal with the issue of swearing fealty, and I'm not a fighter nor have I been apprenticed to anybody yet), so I don't have to worry about it.

From the stance of feeling conflicted over your fealty and your collar, I can understand to some degree.  I am collared to two men, so I come across some of the same issues at times.

This is where you need to talk to the Knight and Dom/Husband.  You said that the Knight is also a Dom, so if you sit down with them, explain your feelings (letting it be known that you are looking for a way to continue doing both, not asking for a release from either of your vows), maybe some solution can be found.

It's a difficult position to be in, but if everybody is willing to work it through, I'm sure you can find answers.


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RE: A question for SCAdians...fealty vs collaring - 9/11/2007 2:52:20 PM   
welshwmn3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Well, first and foremost, the SCA is a re-enactment group. It is make believe, no matter how seriously any one person chooses to take that make believe. Would you see being an actress in a play as cheating on your real life partner?

And, the SCA doesn't require anyone to really swear fealty.  IIRC, even the play variety is only for those who want high rank or office.  And I'm pretty sure that those whose religion prohibits such swearing have been accomodated in the past.




Yes, the SCA is a re-enactment group, but the loyalties and feelings that are made are real.  For most people I've talked to, taking an oath of fealty means something.  It's not an actor or actress just speaking a role.  If it was, the OP wouldn't be having the issues she is with wondering if her oath of fealty is conflicting with her collar.

In some kingdoms, an oath of fealty IS required for certain individuals.  I know in the Outlands (just recently learned this, being a relative newcomer to the Outlands), Knights are *required* to swear fealty to each new King and Queen.  Not just to the Crown/Kingdom (if they want to do that, they have to become a Master-at-Arms until a new King/Queen are crowned that they can swear fealty too). 

If the oath was just a 'play oath', then there wouldn't be people who refuse to take oaths, who choose to be Masters-at-Arms instead of Knights.  While the society as a whole isn't "real life", most people feel oathes and liasons made while inside the SCA to be real.

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RE: A question for SCAdians...fealty vs collaring - 9/11/2007 2:55:04 PM   
welshwmn3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

I don' have any experience with SCA, however i would have a very hard time serving two "masters" for lack of better wording. A very good Book says... Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.


Not everybody believes in your book.  People CAN and DO serve two masters all the time, without hating either one.

And if you really say otherwise, you will call me a liar, as I am collared to two Doms and do NOT hate either, and actually, love both. 

'Sides, if you are really wanting to use that, then if you have a collared submissive or slave, s/he must hate either you or your god.  After all, both you and your god would be masters to him/her...

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RE: A question for SCAdians...fealty vs collaring - 9/11/2007 2:59:23 PM   
welshwmn3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Demspotis

That being said, the SCA is intended to be a game - an elaborate, intricate, and long-term role-playing game - but a game,




Heh.  Don't tell some of the authenticity mavens that they are engaging in a role playing game!     Unless you like vigorous discussions, that is! 


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RE: A question for SCAdians...fealty vs collaring - 9/11/2007 3:16:41 PM   
Alumbrado


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The ones smoking the authentic 'period' cigarettes at every event?  Riiiiight...

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RE: A question for SCAdians...fealty vs collaring - 9/11/2007 3:34:05 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: welshwmn3

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

I don' have any experience with SCA, however i would have a very hard time serving two "masters" for lack of better wording. A very good Book says... Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.


Not everybody believes in your book.  People CAN and DO serve two masters all the time, without hating either one.

And if you really say otherwise, you will call me a liar, as I am collared to two Doms and do NOT hate either, and actually, love both. 

'Sides, if you are really wanting to use that, then if you have a collared submissive or slave, s/he must hate either you or your god.  After all, both you and your god would be masters to him/her...


I really dig this comment.  When this is placed on the table, I always wonder how someone can then go on to be owned by a mortal yet serve only God.  As a christian myself (fuck this statement needs to come as a disclaimer today), I serve God and I serve Darcy.  I don't hate either and neither seem to have a problem that I serve them both either... else God would have surely smote my ass by now...
 
Peace
the.dark.

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RE: A question for SCAdians...fealty vs collaring - 9/11/2007 4:40:32 PM   
welshwmn3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

The ones smoking the authentic 'period' cigarettes at every event?  Riiiiight...


Yes.  Those exact same ones ...

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RE: A question for SCAdians...fealty vs collaring - 9/12/2007 6:08:47 AM   
GhitaAmati


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Thank you all for your comments......

yes...I understand that the SCA is a "game"...but the relationships we create with others are real...very real.....and yes Im one of those who takes my oaths very seriously. I have not ever sworn fealty to a King and Queen...my Husband has no delusions of ever being Knighted because he wont swear to a King and Queen either, He has been a squire for over 20 years, has gotten several of his men at arms knighted, marshalls, and trains most of the upcoming fighters in out kingdom, but until they allow him to become a Master at Arms (not allowed in Trimaris at this time)....he'll continue to be the forever squire. My goal in life is to win Crown by my own hand one day....but until the kids move out or I win the Lottery, its just too expensive anymore...especially with the Authenticity Nazi's going at it this Reign...they've outlawed mundane tents this year within sight of the lyst field and cracked down on non-authentic armor......Trimaris used to be so laid back about that sort of thing..and while Id love to see more authentic campsites....not everyone has the money for that sort of thing and Im scared they are going to run off all the newer members.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.....I definantly agree it is possible to serve two Masters...(whether that be two Doms, or a Dom and your God/Godess/Deity of choice)....but it is not possible to serve two Masters who contradict each other....I know that D and M are not trying in any way to contradict each other, but there are times that it has happened (even on a fighting line at war)...and there needs to be some set rules in place for who I ignore when one yells fall back and one yells charge at the same time....ok....that was just an example...but for me, who has trouble not feeling submissive to just about any male who has that "take charge" kind of attitude, its hard sometimes.....so, that all being said, I have made arrangements to get some alone time for the three of us this weekend to sit down and talk about all this....

thanks for your time...

ghita~

_____________________________

I said I was a submissive, I never said I was a GOOD submissive.


Sex without love is a meaningless experience, but as far as meaningless experiences go its pretty damn good.
~Woody Allen

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RE: A question for SCAdians...fealty vs collaring - 9/12/2007 6:55:20 AM   
breatheasone


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quote:

ORIGINAL: welshwmn3

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

I don' have any experience with SCA, however i would have a very hard time serving two "masters" for lack of better wording. A very good Book says... Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.


Not everybody believes in your book.  People CAN and DO serve two masters all the time, without hating either one.

And if you really say otherwise, you will call me a liar, as I am collared to two Doms and do NOT hate either, and actually, love both. 

'Sides, if you are really wanting to use that, then if you have a collared submissive or slave, s/he must hate either you or your god.  After all, both you and your god would be masters to him/her...

Hi welshwmn3...i do realize some people don't believe in the Bible, and thats their right. I certainly am calling no one a liar and don't know where you would have gotten that, i didn't write the Bible, but i do believe every word in it (which is my right) There is no conflict in the Bible about me submitting to a master, none..... my master serves the Lord...and i serve the Lord and my master....its been working well for us...just like your relationships seem to be working well for you....thanks for your reply and i hope all is well in your world.


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