RE: These things I believe

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Invictus754 -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 6:43:09 PM)
quote: That the tree of liberty needs to be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. Are you stepping up to shed your blood to water this "tree of liberty"? Have you even served your country (other than breakfast at the diner). People who have actually BEEN in the service don't normally do the pimp walk and say "bring it on". We normally would rather try to talk things out and use force as the last resort - if NECESSARY, not PRE-EMPTIVELY. Pre-emptive = cowardice.

ArgoGeorgia -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 6:45:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal Wow. Are you suggesting civilians be under the authority of the Uniform Code of Military Justice? No, read again. I said: "Would dereliction of duty suffice? In time of war, punishment under the UCMJ is death. Seems only fitting that the politicians who declare war are susceptible to the same laws and punishments. Well, if there was any justice there would be." I'm suggesting that those who declare war be accountable to the same laws and punishments as those that wage war on their behalf. The wielding of political power should have an equal or greater burden of responsibility and accountability, don't you think? Right now it is far too easy for the 'civilians' who have a hell of a lot more power than we true civilians to put our military out there for any and every whim they have. No accountability. No responsibility.

ArgoGeorgia -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 6:47:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal lol. I think we have a deal! I pick one one year. You pick one the next. lol Sold! Glad I decided not to run for a political office. lol

ArgoGeorgia -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 6:53:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Invictus754 quote: That the tree of liberty needs to be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. Are you stepping up to shed your blood to water this "tree of liberty"? Have you even served your country (other than breakfast at the diner). People who have actually BEEN in the service don't normally do the pimp walk and say "bring it on". We normally would rather try to talk things out and use force as the last resort - if NECESSARY, not PRE-EMPTIVELY. Pre-emptive = cowardice. That's the beauty of an all volunteer military. They all have stepped up to spill their blood in the name of liberty. They are the true patriots. However, we must make sure that their sacrifice is necessary. Unfortunately, we no longer have a way to shed the blood of tyrants, and they take actions which cause many to sacrifice unnecessarily. That's why we need to hang a couple of em. But only the really bad ones. The only thing that I may disagree with, and struggle with myself, is the concept of a pre-emptive strike. In today's world of WMD's (whether they can be found or not, they do exist), taking action after an attack could leave 1000's or hundreds of thousands dead. In the days of conventional warfare it was easier and safer to react to aggressive actions. But with nukes, bio weapons, etc, I don't think it is as cut and dry. Not sure if this post was directed to me, but I was a combat medic in the US Army for 6 years.

ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 6:55:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia quote: ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal Wow. Are you suggesting civilians be under the authority of the Uniform Code of Military Justice? No, read again. I said: "Would dereliction of duty suffice? In time of war, punishment under the UCMJ is death. Seems only fitting that the politicians who declare war are susceptible to the same laws and punishments. Well, if there was any justice there would be." I'm suggesting that those who declare war be accountable to the same laws and punishments as those that wage war on their behalf. The wielding of political power should have an equal or greater burden of responsibility and accountability, don't you think? Right now it is far too easy for the 'civilians' who have a hell of a lot more power than we true civilians to put our military out there for any and every whim they have. No accountability. No responsibility. I hear ya but our system is deliberately set up to be lead by civilians for a reason. If a politician is subject to the same laws and punishments that sort of makes them military men. I personally don't want a military lead government.

ArgoGeorgia -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 7:01:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal I hear ya but our system is deliberately set up to be lead by civilians for a reason. If a politician is subject to the same laws and punishments that sort of makes them military men. I personally don't want a military lead government. I agree with that 100%. Military+politician=military dictatorship/totalitarian state. I just want the punishments to apply. What we should probably do is create a Uniform Code of Political Justice. Make the UCMJ seem like a friggin slap on the wrist. Because right now politicians seem to be above both civilian law AND military law. The UCPJ would be so harsh and strict and well defined that only the most honest and saintly of citizens would even consider running for office.

Casie -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 7:08:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Invictus754 quote: That the tree of liberty needs to be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. Are you stepping up to shed your blood to water this "tree of liberty"? Have you even served your country (other than breakfast at the diner). People who have actually BEEN in the service don't normally do the pimp walk and say "bring it on". We normally would rather try to talk things out and use force as the last resort - if NECESSARY, not PRE-EMPTIVELY. Pre-emptive = cowardice. While I'm not the original writer of the statement, and I believe one of our founding father is I will glady awnser your question. No I never served my country in the military, however I have many family members who have. I have lost family members in almost all the wars this country has waged. However if it comes down to no longer being free because our government has grown to large and courupt, I will glady spill my blood to water said tree. However I think you are taking this much more litterally than it is intended to be. I believe it is suppose to mean at times it is nessicary for American's to engage in war in order to protect their liberties.

ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 7:21:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia quote: ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal I hear ya but our system is deliberately set up to be lead by civilians for a reason. If a politician is subject to the same laws and punishments that sort of makes them military men. I personally don't want a military lead government. I agree with that 100%. Military+politician=military dictatorship/totalitarian state. I just want the punishments to apply. What we should probably do is create a Uniform Code of Political Justice. Make the UCMJ seem like a friggin slap on the wrist. Because right now politicians seem to be above both civilian law AND military law. The UCPJ would be so harsh and strict and well defined that only the most honest and saintly of citizens would even consider running for office. Saint's aint that stupid. Only the most mad would apply for that job lol

ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 7:30:54 PM)
quote: While I'm not the original writer of the statement, and I believe one of our founding father is I will glady awnser your question. No I never served my country in the military, however I have many family members who have. I have lost family members in almost all the wars this country has waged. However if it comes down to no longer being free because our government has grown to large and courupt, I will glady spill my blood to water said tree. However I think you are taking this much more litterally than it is intended to be. I believe it is suppose to mean at times it is nessicary for American's to engage in war in order to protect their liberties. You are not entitled to the dignity of what your serving family members have done. Join up.

Casie -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 7:42:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal quote: While I'm not the original writer of the statement, and I believe one of our founding father is I will glady awnser your question. No I never served my country in the military, however I have many family members who have. I have lost family members in almost all the wars this country has waged. However if it comes down to no longer being free because our government has grown to large and courupt, I will glady spill my blood to water said tree. However I think you are taking this much more litterally than it is intended to be. I believe it is suppose to mean at times it is nessicary for American's to engage in war in order to protect their liberties. You are not entitled to the dignity of what your serving family members have done. Join up. I didn't say I was. I was just saying I know first hand whats it like to lose people you love and care about to war. Further more I can't join the military for multiple reasons. My husband would never have it. And my son would sure miss the breast milk lol.

ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 7:46:49 PM)
Take them with.

Casie -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 7:49:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal Take them with. Those aren't the only reasons I can't join. I say there were multiple reason my family is just one of them. I would have to give up my internship and I medical condition that would pervent me from joing.

ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 8:15:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Casie quote: ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal Take them with. Those aren't the only reasons I can't join. I say there were multiple reason my family is just one of them. I would have to give up my internship and I medical condition that would pervent me from joing. Okay. I see your point. But you should know that when you say things like "No I never served my country in the military, however I have many family members who have." it's going to trigger a nerve for those of us who have served. It's kind of like saying "I know what it's like to be black. I have alot of black freinds." You just don't borrow from other peoples experiences or dignity. I know you didn't intend that but, really, you should steer away from statements adopting credibility that is not your own.

Casie -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 8:23:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal quote: ORIGINAL: Casie quote: ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal Take them with. Those aren't the only reasons I can't join. I say there were multiple reason my family is just one of them. I would have to give up my internship and I medical condition that would pervent me from joing. Okay. I see your point. But you should know that when you say things like "No I never served my country in the military, however I have many family members who have." it's going to trigger a nerve for those of us who have served. It's kind of like saying "I know what it's like to be black. I have alot of black freinds." You just don't borrow from other peoples experiences or dignity. I know you didn't intend that but, really, you should steer away from statements adopting credibility that is not your own. Oh that is certainly not what I was trying to imply. I was just saying I've seen first hand what our soliders give up, I know what it's like to loss someone to war and I know the sacrafise family members of soliders make.. Defintally not what I ment, if that is how you took it and were offended I do appoligize for that.

ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 8:54:45 PM)
You dont need to apologize because I am not worried about you being sorry. By your very own statement YOU have lost someone in nearly EVERY war this country has ever had... "I have lost family members in almost all the wars this country has waged." You are 19 y/o! That's quite a memory you have - looking into the past before you were born and remembering those sacrifices. Way back to ALL those wars. "I've seen first hand what our soliders give up". - No. You haven't. You've only seen, heard, imagined, or romantisized it. You don't know 'first hand' until it's you, being a soldier.

Casie -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 9:40:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal You dont need to apologize because I am not worried about you being sorry. By your very own statement YOU have lost someone in nearly EVERY war this country has ever had... "I have lost family members in almost all the wars this country has waged." You are 19 y/o! That's quite a memory you have - looking into the past before you were born and remembering those sacrifices. Way back to ALL those wars. "I've seen first hand what our soliders give up". - No. You haven't. You've only seen, heard, imagined, or romantisized it. You don't know 'first hand' until it's you, being a soldier. OMG, I never claimed to have remember all those people. However I know about my families heritige, and know about my past family member have done. My Great Grandfather was a decorated soldier from WW2 and he just resently died. His brother however didn't make it home from the war. My grandfather never got over it. I also had family members in the civil and revolutionary war. But to date I've lost my uncle, and highschool best friend in Iraq. My brother in law was in a mental insititution for a month after his 3rd tour in Iraq. I have seen first hand how it changes them, how much pain they are in, I've seen first hand what it does to families. I never said I seen the things they've seen. BUT I HAVE SEEN HOW IT RUINS LIFES. I never claimed anything other than that. I've seen my family morn. I've seen that my brother in law will never be the same. I've seen how much it is killing my husband, my sister in law and their childern. Obviously you are too into reading between the lines than even listening to what I'm saying. I know lots of people who don't know anyone in Iraq or anyone who has been there. I do. That is what I was referring to. I've seen the devastation of their lifes after they come home first hand. I have first hand seen a father bury his son as a result of war. I've seen grown men cry and morn the loss of a friend. I have shed tears, for the loved ones I have lost. I first hand know how war effects the people who aren't even there. No matter what I say you'll pick it apart and make it say what you want. Obviously you just want an argument. I tried to appoligize to you for offending you. Which I might add was not my intention. I tried to explain what I ment. But it doesn't matter to you, you would much rather attack me.

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