deception (Full Version)

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murmur -> deception (9/12/2007 12:41:40 PM)

It's a question that just popped into my head.
Scenario : You just made commitment with a wonderful Man. You live a pretty happy life with him for a long time, one year, two years, everything is wonderful. one day, something come out out of a conversation. He is loyal and honest with you, doesnt hide anything, but what you thought about the core of that Man is suddenly broken by that revelation, it disappoint you. (something reliated to a belief in life, a misconception about something you thought was clear between you and suddenly isnt, a prejudice you are so totally against it never occurs to you to talk to Him about because you thought He would never have it in the first place : religion, how he perceive others, politics, anything...)
How would you deal about the new Him that is in front of you? (he's not new, persay, but you see him in a new light) You were (are) in love with this Man and now is disappointed truely by what he now shows you. Do you accept it out of submission for Him? Do you discuss it with Him and if so, what solutions do you feel you can both consider? (putting solutions in italic cause it isnt something you can really change, Him being who He is at the core and you, also)
This is in no way a question reliated in a situation in my life or a friend, just...a floating thought passing by i guess[:)]
I'm really interested to hear about your thoughts :)




goalie62 -> RE: deception (9/12/2007 12:45:46 PM)

This kind of question is very good at making one examine one's own life and beliefs.  It's also damn hard to answer because we aren't there so we don't have all of the information.  I'll take a shot at it anyway IMHO and as always YMMV.

If your love is strong and your relationship is strong and fulfilling, I see no reason why this matter could not be discussed and a solution that would be mutually acceptable found.  If there's any doubt as to the level of love and happiness in the overall relationship, then I have to say that it is doomed and cannot be saved.




HypnoticNovember -> RE: deception (9/12/2007 1:11:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: murmur

It's a question that just popped into my head.
Scenario : You just made commitment with a wonderful Man. You live a pretty happy life with him for a long time, one year, two years, everything is wonderful. one day, something come out out of a conversation. He is loyal and honest with you, doesnt hide anything, but what you thought about the core of that Man is suddenly broken by that revelation, it disappoint you. (something reliated to a belief in life, a misconception about something you thought was clear between you and suddenly isnt, a prejudice you are so totally against it never occurs to you to talk to Him about because you thought He would never have it in the first place : religion, how he perceive others, politics, anything...)
How would you deal about the new Him that is in front of you? (he's not new, persay, but you see him in a new light) You were (are) in love with this Man and now is disappointed truely by what he now shows you. Do you accept it out of submission for Him? Do you discuss it with Him and if so, what solutions do you feel you can both consider? (putting solutions in italic cause it isnt something you can really change, Him being who He is at the core and you, also)
This is in no way a question reliated in a situation in my life or a friend, just...a floating thought passing by i guess[:)]
I'm really interested to hear about your thoughts :)


If you truly love the person, not a damn thing will change.




mbes -> RE: deception (9/12/2007 1:38:03 PM)

I would imagine that many couples run up against differing lifeviews from time to time, many of them dearly held. I don't expect mine to agree with me on everything, even the fundamentals; I don't always agree with him. Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree and move on.
I'd give conversation a good shot first, to see if I could at least see where his position came from, but I'm big on talking. [:D]
Ok, I'd do my best to convince him of the error of his ways, but I like to argue, too. [;)]




toservez -> RE: deception (9/12/2007 2:11:17 PM)

I struggled with answering this question as the spirit it was intended.

To not answer it like that I would say what was written by mbes was excellent that part of life is accepting different views on things even if they are very major and near or dear to you. Part of getting to know someone and finding out if you can be together is finding out the differences and what true importance they play in your life. I often express this by sharing the same goals and values on realities of life and not philosophical values.

For example political thoughts I am left of center and my Master is right of center. If he was far right and passionate about them then it would be a very difficult thing for me to be around 24/7 and would have tainted our relationship. If he becomes that way over time I am sure I would get use to it naturally as almost all day to day life is not spent on that subject. That would be a philosophical value. But if we had a total difference of opinion on something like if we want children and/or how many that would be a reality goal/value and therefore not just minimalize for love and get over it.

To answer the OP question in the spirit of thing and that a difference comes out of nowhere for whatever reason it simply depends on what the difference is. If it is something that does not impact our life/love/trust and all other of those types of things (as in a philosophical value) then I would think it would have a very minor impact. If it was something that impacts one of those qualities and/or changes the relationship and/or the goals of the relationship in a significant manner (reality value) then I think all bets would be off but does not mean immediate pack up my bags and leave.




chiaThePet -> RE: deception (9/12/2007 2:24:55 PM)

No pie tonight, but if he has always held these thoughts and beliefs and it
made no difference or matter in the person whom stood before you all
this time, put it to rest and continue your wonderful relationship.

If it has been revealed that he is a serial axe murderer, call 911.
(and you might want to hide all those axes too)

chia* (the pet)




DominicsJoy -> RE: deception (9/12/2007 2:54:58 PM)

Deception has no place in my life. From the vague description you give this is not just keeping your birthday present a secret, but something that has clearly been kept from you because the person in question must have known that you would not be happy to learn it.

Personally I think it is sad that he/she did not feel that they could trust you enough to share, nor would they think that your love was strong enough to be able to weather the storm if they told you when the relationship was new.

If you can accept the revelations, and learn to trust again, more power to you.




murmur -> RE: deception (9/12/2007 3:19:47 PM)

Nope, i clearly said that in that particular situation (which isnt happening to me, by the way[;)]) the person in question didnt kept the matter from the submissive, the subject just never happened to be in any conversation.

*quote* - He is honest and loyal with you, doesnt hide anything - *end of quote*

That problem is more complicated in the fact that what was unknown is now known and what you plan to do with it or not in the continuum of your relationship.thanks for your thoughts :-)

goalie62 : nod, very well said.

hypnoticnovember : love conquers all, eh[:)]

mbes : i like to argue also hehe, part of my charm! agreeing to disagree demands a great amount of openness, it's not that easy. But it can lead to lots of closed doors to open and explore.

tservez : thanks for responding, i always enjoy your posts [:D] one thing caught more my eyes : If he becomes that way over time I am sure I would get use to it naturally as almost all day to day life is not spent on that subject. That would be a philosophical value. But if we had a total difference of opinion on something like if we want children and/or how many that would be a reality goal/value and therefore not just minimalize for love and get over it.
 
*nod nod*

chiaThePet : thanks for replying, i dont own an axe, but if it comes to that, he doesnt know where my knives are so dont worry[;)]


Thanks at all for responding! It gives me thoughts on a *what-if* situation.[;)]




camille65 -> RE: deception (9/12/2007 3:35:51 PM)

I wouldn't call it deception since there was no ill intent behind it, instead it is simply not knowing something about someone.
My ex husband once made a comment that stunned me, actually stunned me. It was cruel, bigoted and out of left field. It took a while for me to get by it & in some ways I never got past those words. How could I have married a guy who would be so callous?
Easily, it never came up before. There had never been a situation that touched on the subject so I assumed he would feel the same way about it as I do.

All a person can do is realise that no matter how in tune you are with someone, there will always be 'something' where your feelings diverge.
Remember the way you felt before they said/did whatever and realise you would feel exactly the same if it hadn't happened.
They didn't change. YOUR perception of them changed.




RumpusParable -> RE: deception (9/12/2007 3:48:33 PM)

100% depends on what it is we're talking about and the details of how much and in what way they believe it.

The vagueness given leaves me with no way to answer.




jaxnsax -> RE: deception (9/12/2007 4:23:49 PM)

Greetings
So, I am in a relationship with someone for several years; when suddenly, he reveals a belief or idea that is contrary to mine. What do I do?
Nothing.
If I was able to love him before this belief came into view, my love should still be present after. If it is not, then I obviously did not love him to begin with.
jaxon




Celeste43 -> RE: deception (9/12/2007 4:30:44 PM)

It wouldn't be a deception, it would just be something that hadn't been discussed before. If it turned out he was prejudiced, that would be a deal breaker. I have ums and I have raised them to be accepting of all, I'm not going to have them exposed to such hatred.

If it turns out we differ politically, we agree to disagree and don't discuss it anymore. I'm a New York liberal born and bred, I know that nobody else is going to share my views to the extent I do except another New York liberal. But basically I don't discuss politics anyway.

So it would depend exactly on what the bombshell was as to my response. He was in jail at 17 for joyriding and spent 90 days plus community service is different than 10 year for rape and murder of a minor. One is acceptable, one isn't.




allspiceT -> RE: deception (9/12/2007 5:23:59 PM)

Well, I think I can give my own personal answer to this question as I've faced it.  Master and I had been together for awhile when out came his views on religion.  I am a highly spiritual person.  He was adamantly opposed to most, if not all, belief systems that revolve around the concept of God.  How did we deal with it? 

Well, in talking about it, the real problem was not that we differed in our belief systems but how we viewed and treated others who had different belief systems.  I worked on a theory of mutual respect.  He worked on a theory that religion should be wiped from the world and we would all be better for it.  He was adamant and vocal.  I found myself losing respect for someone I thought of as a very good, moral, caring person as I listened to him denigrate what is for me, and many others, a core aspect of our life and worldview. 

3 years later we are still together.  Why? How?  Well, you have made me think about that.

First, I took a stance.  I told him how I felt.  I told him how it affected my view of him.  He respects my views and thoughts, he considered it (not without a lot of discussion and argument :)  I had to be firm.  This, for me, was a critical issue.  I need to respect the person I am with.  His behaviour in this are was not, to my mind, worthy of respect.  So I challenged him.  I challenged his personal view of himself as a person whose words and actions are worthy of the respect of others.  The challenge made him think.

Second, in discussions, we focused on the key issue, which is not belief systems but rather tolerance.  Again and again, I pointed out that we have chosen a lifestyle that encourages and promotes tolerance of all sorts of things.  It can't possibly be harder to be tolerant of someone's belief system.

Third, I challenged his ability to think rationally.  He has a belief system, it simply isn't God centred.  Nor is it entirely based on "fact".  There is a great deal of supposition in a science or logic oriented belief system.  I engaged him on a cerebral plane.  He likes that :)  It's one of the reasons he keeps me around.

Last, I continued and still continue, to support his right to his own belief system.  I do not get angry at him about it, I remain calm and centred on the issue of respecting others. 

Just this week Master had me enroll us both in a course called Philosophy, Science and Religion.  I asked him if he would enter into it with an open mind.  He said, no, probably not.  But he was looking forward to it and the discussions it would generate between us.

Through intelligent dialogue, dedication and perseverance to the idea that he is worthy of respect and perhaps simply hadn't considered certain things, we have changed what was an issue between us into something we can explore and enjoy together.

I am his slave.  I submit to him in all things.  But he values me also for the intelligent, thoughtful, challenging person I am as well.  To submit does not mean to agree :)  I submit to many things I neither particularly like nor agree with.  When such is damaging to me, we work it out.  When I believe such is damaging to himself in the person he wants to be, then I am free to tell him so.  I am the mirror that shows his own reflection.  The perfections and the imperfections.  He has come to cherish the insights I provide him.  And that, I think is the key.

For us, this is not about love.  We have a very loving relationship but we began and continue on, as a full time Master/slave relationship.  This is our focus at all times.  Love worries about hurting another.  M/s worries about hurting the relationship between you and so gives more scope to address issues without personal injury.

That, anyway, is my opinion.  But then Master is quite aware that I would never remain with him simply because of the love I feel for him.  I stay because he is a man that I have come to greatly respect and esteem and who has become the Master of my life because of his ability to face himself and grow from the experience.




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: deception (9/12/2007 6:53:58 PM)

I would give it time.  Give myself time to process the new information and integrate it with the old.  See how things settled within me and how integrated it was.  Since I'm the one who blinded myself, it's really more a matter of whether I am comfy with my new info or not. 

I'd also talk with them so they could understand what was going on and that this was my problem and not theirs.

Oh and it has nothing to do with love- love is not what builds a strong relationship.




fairerthanshe -> RE: deception (9/12/2007 8:23:21 PM)

I would put the shoe on the other foot.  There are many things in my credo/thoughts/beliefs that others don't or won't take a shine to.  Probably things that would be off putting or others might view, because of their own perspective, as being "wrong" in the greater societal sense.

As I am not a perfect being, I don't generally expect it from others.  Many 'prejudices' are ingrained in us by the time we enter kindergarten and some of those ideas and concepts can be hard to shake, no matter how a life time of learning and experience teaches us to the contrary.

Recently, we were having a political discussion and he let slip that he voted for a third party candidate in 2000.  I stopped the car in the middle of the street, totally aghast, horrified at the thought that this man with whom I have no limits, a man who literally has held my life in his hands, could cast such a vote!  Never have I felt more betrayed, so sullied, mortified by simple knowledge...

You see, everyone has there hot button issues.  In all seriousness, I'd take it with a grain of salt.  I firmly believe that intellectual discourse is never off limits and hope that I never discover that he believes to the contrary.

well wishes ~ fairer than she




littleone35 -> RE: deception (9/13/2007 7:24:27 AM)

If it was somethiung not discussed before i would ask hem what he menat by whatever statment he said.  Would not make me love him any less.  He is Catholic i am Protestent we agree to disagree on that because both have different views.  He is democrat and i am republican. We do agree on most other things.  Just cause he has a differnt viewpoint on things is not bad.  He makes me see things from his point of view, i may not agree with his point of view but i can see it.

Matt's littleone




murmur -> RE: deception (9/13/2007 5:32:24 PM)

again thanks all! [:D]

allspiceT - welcome to the boards! Your story has touched me, i'm happy you're now both fully content in your life.




Driver1961 -> RE: deception (9/18/2007 7:50:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: allspiceT

Well, I think I can give my own personal answer to this question as I've faced it.   How did we deal with it? 
EDITED
Well, in talking about it, the real problem was not that we differed in our belief systems but how we viewed and treated others who had different belief systems.  I worked on a theory of mutual respect.  

I stay because he is a man that I have come to greatly respect and esteem and who has become the Master of my life because of his ability to face himself and grow from the experience.



He dips His lid to all:
Well said Allspice!

This comes down to ethics (that others have mentioned) and Allspice put into practicality.

I don't believe in the the adage of 'Relationships are give and take per se'.

Successful relationships are about people knowing what is 'absolute' or not compromisable and what is compromisable based upon One's beliefs.  Allspice demonstrates this clearly in her words.

Warm regards to all.  Driver





ProlificNeeds -> RE: deception (9/18/2007 11:03:42 AM)

Respect.
Agree to disagree. You don't have to share their view, and they don't have to share yours, so long as both of you respect that the other person is validated in havign their own opinion, formed of free thought and logic, I actually take it as a good sign. I'm big on intellectual discourse, and conversations with someone who constantly goes, "Yea I believe the same" all the time, is boring. However, if the respect is not there on both sides, one party may invariably try to change the other parties mind, or be dismissive of their thoughts or values. That's when problems occure, but otherwise, I think diversity, in philosophies, religion, beliefs, whatever, can be a very benificial thing, so long as the respect is there.




ownedgirlie -> RE: deception (9/18/2007 12:23:04 PM)

I accept it as part of who he is, part of who he has always been, part of the make up of principles which he has used to guide me in life thus far, and I don't change a thing about my submission to him or feelings for him.

Interestingly, Master and I had a recently conversation in which we discussed a scenario whereby his principles had changed (they haven't, but we had an interesting conversation about it anyway).  I concluded that if his principles changed, it would throw me because it's his set of principles he holds to in his Mastery over me.  So if the principles change along the way, his Mastery of me could change.  I said I would still belong to him and still submit to him, but it would be confusing until I adjusted, and I would mostly only be able to submit passively, rather than actively, because I wouldn't feel I knew him very well until I learned him again. 

But that's different.  What you're saying in the OP is that nothing about the way he has Mastered me has changed, that he always held these principles, and that I only learned about it years into it.  I doubt it would change a thing.




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