RE: Vote Universal Healthcare

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meatcleaver -> RE: Vote Universal Healthcare (9/15/2007 1:40:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord But don't books cost money? And isn't studying just improving someone's self, at the cost of one's own effort (i.e., working), in order to go perform work? (Yeah, yeah. I know. Libraries. I don't know who uses the dated things anymore unless they're looking for some specific history or a fiction. Neither of which are known to rake in money, except, of course, for the people who write and publish them. But that doesn't help library readers.) Who provided the infrastructure that allows you to study? It is not for nothing that western countries have penalties for people who don't attend school. It is because it benefits the collective or if you are against that word, the state. You might want to take extra education but the pumps have been primed by the collective and the infrastructure is already paid for for you to use. In fact all tax payers contribute to your education and your efforts to better yourself. The same thinking is behind healthcare in most other western countries. Why are Americans so hostile to a healthcare system when such systems work in every other western country and they all work better than the current American system? Maybe it is the same reason why Americans don't play soccer while all other countries do.

meatcleaver -> RE: Vote Universal Healthcare (9/15/2007 1:45:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord Aren't most things more expensive in America? I still remember Africian exchange students talking about how they'll go back home after graduation since a large section of land can be purchased there for a small apparentment's monthly rent here, along with everything else being far cheaper. Plus isn't this why many jobs are being outsourced internationally and our trade deficiet with China's huge? This is to say, we have to consider the relative cost of things here in America when comparing prices. Compare like with like and you will see how expensive American healthcare system is. The American healthcare system is about twice as expensive as most of Europe's healthcare systems. It is more expensive than Germany's system and the average German is richer than the average American, ditto so is the average Scandinavian. But we could go through western Europe country by country, Europeans have a comparable wealth to Americans but all their healthcare systems are cheaper.

CuriousLord -> RE: Vote Universal Healthcare (9/15/2007 1:47:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord But don't books cost money? And isn't studying just improving someone's self, at the cost of one's own effort (i.e., working), in order to go perform work? (Yeah, yeah. I know. Libraries. I don't know who uses the dated things anymore unless they're looking for some specific history or a fiction. Neither of which are known to rake in money, except, of course, for the people who write and publish them. But that doesn't help library readers.) Who provided the infrastructure that allows you to study? It is not for nothing that western countries have penalties for people who don't attend school. It is because it benefits the collective or if you are against that word, the state. You might want to take extra education but the pumps have been primed by the collective and the infrastructure is already paid for for you to use. In fact all tax payers contribute to your education and your efforts to better yourself. The same thinking is behind healthcare in most other western countries. Why are Americans so hostile to a healthcare system when such systems work in every other western country and they all work better than the current American system? Maybe it is the same reason why Americans don't play soccer while all other countries do. Eh? I took "study" as referring to "professional studying". But, yeah. We make exceptions for minors. Capitalism doesn't apply to kids for us. They're minors. Not allotted legal the same rights as adults. So, sure. Give 'em healthcare; not their fault if their parents' can't pay for it.

meatcleaver -> RE: Vote Universal Healthcare (9/15/2007 1:52:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord Eh? I took "study" as referring to "professional studying". But, yeah. We make exceptions for minors. Capitalism doesn't apply to kids for us. They're minors. Not allotted legal the same rights as adults. So, sure. Give 'em healthcare; not their fault if their parents' can't pay for it. So capitalism is like pornography, you don't expose minors to it? Now that is a first on me. Either capitalism delivers or it doesn't. In healthcare like education it doesn't except in niche areas which is why just about all capitalist countries apart from America don't apply capitalist principles to health and education.

CuriousLord -> RE: Vote Universal Healthcare (9/15/2007 1:53:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord Aren't most things more expensive in America? I still remember Africian exchange students talking about how they'll go back home after graduation since a large section of land can be purchased there for a small apparentment's monthly rent here, along with everything else being far cheaper. Plus isn't this why many jobs are being outsourced internationally and our trade deficiet with China's huge? This is to say, we have to consider the relative cost of things here in America when comparing prices. Compare like with like and you will see how expensive American healthcare system is. The American healthcare system is about twice as expensive as most of Europe's healthcare systems. It is more expensive than Germany's system and the average German is richer than the average American, ditto so is the average Scandinavian. But we could go through western Europe country by country, Europeans have a comparable wealth to Americans but all their healthcare systems are cheaper. You're telling me it's better and it's cheaper. Both go against reason (as the capitalist system is proven to be both productive and effective, even if cruel). I'll buy, pretty quickly, that more people get coverage in socialist states. It being "better" and "cheaper", though.. where, exactly, do you propose the money comes from? Doctors and hospitals less prone to competition, the people who are a drain on society also getting covered? Those both contribute to higher costs. Forcing doctors and hospitals on a slimmer budget? That contributes to lower quality (while, admittedly, mitigating some of the extra cost). If you really had your choice between an American professional doctor and a state-paid doctor in a socialist country, which would you honestly want for your own health? (Personally, I like the one I can sue to hell, and is, therefore, more cautious. Also, he probably worked harder in med school to earn this high-paying job. The state-supported doctor? Meh.)

CuriousLord -> RE: Vote Universal Healthcare (9/15/2007 1:58:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord Eh? I took "study" as referring to "professional studying". But, yeah. We make exceptions for minors. Capitalism doesn't apply to kids for us. They're minors. Not allotted legal the same rights as adults. So, sure. Give 'em healthcare; not their fault if their parents' can't pay for it. So capitalism is like pornography, you don't expose minors to it? You know, you really could've picked driving, alcohol, owning property, enlisting, voting, running for public office, etc.. pornography was a rather.. interesting choice. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Now that is a first on me. Either capitalism delivers or it doesn't. I'd say it delivers; at the same time, I'd encourage you to consider that it isn't black and white (or delivers versus doesn't). quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver In healthcare like education it doesn't except in niche areas which is why just about all capitalist countries apart from America don't apply capitalist principles to health and education. Doesn't apply? How does capitalism not apply to health and education? (Again, not referring to minors.)

meatcleaver -> RE: Vote Universal Healthcare (9/15/2007 2:03:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord You're telling me it's better and it's cheaper. Both go against reason (as the capitalist system is proven to be both productive and effective, even if cruel). I'll buy, pretty quickly, that more people get coverage in socialist states. It being "better" and "cheaper", though.. where, exactly, do you propose the money comes from? Doctors and hospitals less prone to competition, the people who are a drain on society also getting covered? Those both contribute to higher costs. Forcing doctors and hospitals on a slimmer budget? That contributes to lower quality (while, admittedly, mitigating some of the extra cost). Capitalism doesn't universally work which is why so called capitalist countries don't apply laissez faire capitalism, not even America. To do so would lead to revolutions. It also doen't deliver an educated and healthy work force which is why most capitalist countries have state education and health. Just look at the state of education in the US and the state of education in more social democratic countries., the US lags behind. Yes, at its top end the US performs but it doesn't perform throughout society. In fact an OECD report last year pointed out that social mobility is less in the US than any other developed country. You really need to take off you rose tinted glasses and stop believing capitalist propaganda. quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord If you really had your choice between an American professional doctor and a state-paid doctor in a socialist country, which would you honestly want for your own health? (Personally, I like the one I can sue to hell, and is, therefore, more cautious. Also, he probably worked harder in med school to earn this high-paying job. The state-supported doctor? Meh.) I've never been treated in the US but I have been in Germany, Holland and the UK and I don't have any problems with putting my life in their hands. My brother lives in the US and he would trust American doctors but he thinks the means of medical delivery in the US sucks and he has long experience with both the US and the UK. EDIT You do know that the American culture of litigation puts the price of healthcare up and denies you treatment that you might otherwise need, all as an insurance against patients suing doctors.

NorthernGent -> RE: Vote Universal Healthcare (9/15/2007 2:17:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord I don't mean to knit-pick; just easier to address specific points this way than vague, general responses. quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent We're all supported: every day. Presumably you read books and study, and, consequently, borrow/take from others' (the groups') intellectual property. I believe this analogy to be flawed. (The next paragraph is irrelevant if you cede this.) I don't think so. The analogy is a response to a post suggesting that health care will be a case of the poor stealing from those "working hard"; in other words, one group taking from another. We all take from the people around us. To illustrate: the US was built on the experience of people like those from Cornwall with their mining expertise, which in turn was built on the natural resources in that particular part of England, which in turn is due to the climate and wider environment; individual achievement can't be explained outside of the group and the environment in which we live, so, the claim that one group is taking from another, is useless in this context: sharing our property, whether that be intellectual, labour, or money, is a core part of our existence/behaviour/endeavour. I think the concept of universal health care is underpinned by knowledge sharing, rather than theft. This doesn't mean a health care system should be a means of maintaining welfare; it should be part of the wider welfare strategy of providing the skills, confidence and ability for marginalised groups to play a valuable role in the economy and society. I suppose civilisation is the word I'm looking for here. quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord But don't books cost money? And isn't studying just improving someone's self, at the cost of one's own effort (i.e., working), in order to go perform work? (Yeah, yeah. I know. Libraries. I don't know who uses the dated things anymore unless they're looking for some specific history or a fiction. Neither of which are known to rake in money, except, of course, for the people who write and publish them. But that doesn't help library readers.) No. Your education is underpinned by those that have gone before you; you are taking their intellectual property, and consequently their effort, and using it for your benefit/growth: in other words, knowledge sharing. If we lived by the creed that we don't share, we'd still be scavenging around in the woods wishing we could master fire. quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent It is absurd to believe that an individual exists in a vacuum. Did anyone suggest an individual exists in a vacuum (i.e., do everything alone)? Or are we suggesting individuals should earn their pay (i.e., work- alone or not, which would not fulfill the "vacuum" requirement)? I don't disagree that individuals should earn their keep: it's a given, in my mind. If you accept that you benefit from the property(e.g. intellectual) of others, what is your reason for not wanting to share some of your property (e.g. money) so others can benefit/grow?

CuriousLord -> RE: Vote Universal Healthcare (9/15/2007 2:17:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Capitalism doesn't universally work which is why so called capitalist countries don't apply laissez faire capitalism, not even America. To do so would lead to revolutions. It also doen't deliver an educated and healthy work force which is why most capitalist countries have state education and health. Just look at the state of education in the US and the state of education in more social democratic countries., the US lags behind. Yes, at its top end the US performs but it doesn't perform throughout society. But our education, including at the socialist levels, is wretched. Our elementary, middle, and high schools are all sub-par. The fact that our top end, despite this, continues to work and draw many of the world's brightest minds can strike one as amazing when considering the pool we pull them from. If anything, doesn't this show a superiority of the capitalist system for our education in America? quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver In fact an OECD report last year pointed out that social mobility is less in the US than any other developed country. Could you point out this report? (Not that I don't believe you it was there, I'd just like to see the fine print and specifics of the report as I haven't heard of it before.) quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver You really need to take off you rose tinted glasses and stop believing capitalist propaganda. Don't insult me. I have points and reasons. Address them, not your unsubstantiated idea of why I might have them.

CuriousLord -> RE: Vote Universal Healthcare (9/15/2007 2:36:51 AM)
(To get straight at the point, I think we disagree on the idea that we take intellectual property, so we should return on it by sharing capital, if I understand your position correctly.) Wouldn't intellectual property simply be that which follows intellectual property laws? Such as, we all know that a^2 + b^2 = c^2. It's a theory that's literally thousands of years old by now and taught as a requirement basic to government-mandated compotency education. We can sell the teaching of it, but the concept itself is free.) On the other hand, one could profit from a chemical formula of a new medicine- which would be intellectual property, I think. Still, the things we teach are things no one really wants to sell. And, if they did, well.. if people think it's hard to keep a lid on music files whose native language is utterly incomprehensible to humans, plus something they have absolutely no legal rights to... well, they're free to try. :P But there's a big difference in "intellectual property" (a term which I consider to be making information analogous to property in ways for the purpose of legal considerations, but not defining it as actual property) and cash. One's free to share, the other's limited. People who share this information are conpensated for their effort in the sharing, and they've lost nothing in the sharing (actually, according to my education classes, they've learned more due to it as teaching a concept is one of the best ways to gain a mastery of it). After all, if Bill Gates could share a billion dollars with everyone- and then everyone would actually have a billion dollars (and the world suddenly gained the resources to let everyone use that money and negate the incredible inflation which would occur) and Bill Gates still had his billion and its buying power in tact, wouldn't he do it?

NorthernGent -> RE: Vote Universal Healthcare (9/15/2007 2:39:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent If you mean cost reduction, then of course a private company will be more efficient because their mission is to make money: that is their reason for existence. Some of those savings may be passed on to the consumer, depending on market competitiveness/potential for price fixing etc, but it doesn't guarantee quality healthcare; as per any other product, it's dependent on what the consumer/market is prepared to accept. NG. Private healthcare being cheaper than a national healthcare system is not born out by the facts. The most expensive healthcare in the western world is American healthcare which is private with some government interference. One of the most cheapest is the British National Health Service which compared to its European counterparts is hugely under funded but still for the most part delivers a world class service. I'm not well-versed on the American system, maybe there's a difference between the providers' costs and the price to the consumer. From what I know of the British system, it's hit and miss. According to medical bodies, the British and Dutch have the highest standards of midwifery in the world, but the British system has its limitations. You're spot on with the chronic lack of funding: it's testament to the dedication of the people working in the health service that they provide a decent service in the context of a lack of investment; anyone who has spent time in a British hospital will know what I mean. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver My brother lives in California and loves all things American but even he says American Healthcare sucks (the delivery and cost, not the clinical side). He complains you are given treatment you don't need when you are healthy just to make money and refuse you treatment you need when you are sick, just to save the insurance company money. This would seem the logial conclusion as the consumer is subservient to the profit objective. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver One of the best arguments one can make to capitalists for a national health system is for the benefits of the country. A healthy, stress free work force performs better and costs the country less (and companies) than an unhealthy worforce or a dtressed workforce wondering what will happen should they contract a major illness that will consume all they have worked for. I suppose humans are searching for harmony/well-being/self-esteem, so the discussion will always be underpinned by what constitutes well-being; in my mind, wealth creation is simply a spoke in a wheel.

NorthernGent -> RE: Vote Universal Healthcare (9/15/2007 2:55:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord (To get straight at the point, I think we disagree on the idea that we take intellectual property, so we should return on it by sharing capital, if I understand your position correctly.) I don't think we do. You implied that your education is a result of your effort alone. My point stands: it is not, you benefit from the group; give and take is a core part of human existence, so the idea that one group taking from another renders health care a non-starter, is a meaningless one in my mind. As said, health care is underpinned by knowledge sharing; for a kick off, the idea of a hospital was not conceived in the Western world. We all grow as a consequence of the effort of others; put it this way, left to your own devices, you'd be swinging in trees literally shitting yourself at the prospect of an alpha male selecting you for a spot of retribution, the same applies to everyone.

Politesub53 -> RE: Vote Universal Healthcare (9/15/2007 4:04:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord Aren't most things more expensive in America? I still remember Africian exchange students talking about how they'll go back home after graduation since a large section of land can be purchased there for a small apparentment's monthly rent here, along with everything else being far cheaper. Plus isn't this why many jobs are being outsourced internationally and our trade deficiet with China's huge? This is to say, we have to consider the relative cost of things here in America when comparing prices. Everything i saw in America, from consumer goods to housing to food is cheaper than it is in the UK. It`s difficult to compare exactly, as you need to take average wages and also land availability into consideration when talking about housing. I think a socially funded health system is the best way forward, and as has been said before it works ok in many parts of the world. The concept of not providing health facilities to those who need them is alien to me. One can blame people for poor lifestyles and if thats the case tax cigarettes and alchohol accordingly, at source. Provide education in schools about healthy eating and exercise. If you lay all the blame on the individual then insurance companies will find every loophole available not to pay. Who can say that what we eat now, thats considered healthy, wont be found to cause cancer or something in the future. Where does the blame lie then, with us for believing that what we eat is safe ?

johntom571 -> RE: Vote Universal Healthcare (9/15/2007 4:37:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl US doctors are given bonuses for turning patients away. A universal healthcare doctor's salary is based on the quality of healthcare given to patients. Ahem, no it's not. I happen to live under a "universal:" health care system here in Canada, and it SUCKS watermelon sideways. Here, doctors are being penalized for seeing too many patients (Cap on billing), which is the stick instead of the carrot. Over there You can see a doctor for free anytime for anything, and everybody tries. Doctors are overworked. Most who graduate from med school go to work in the US. Millions of Canadians can't get a physician to accept their case, and have to rely on urgent care clinics. It takes weeks to get an appointment if you DO have a MD, and months to get a specialist referral. It's a great system, only if you can afford to WAIT. Lots of Canadian don't: they go to Buffalo to get overnight brain surgery and MRI's, or they go give birth to quadruplets in small midwest towns south of the border. "universal" sounds good. it's a great equalizer: everybody suffers. don't do it. JohnTom, from Canada.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Vote Universal Healthcare (9/15/2007 5:04:58 AM)
As some of you seem familiar with the British National Health system, I'd like to ask the following questions: 1. How do you identify yourself to receive treatment? Is there an I.D. card? 2. In the film "Sicko" Moore interviews a man that is foreigner and still received medical care - how would that work? 3. How is an individual's medical information safeguarded in terms of privacy concerns, or is it not?

Politesub53 -> RE: Vote Universal Healthcare (9/15/2007 5:18:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro As some of you seem familiar with the British National Health system, I'd like to ask the following questions: 1. How do you identify yourself to receive treatment? Is there an I.D. card? 2. In the film "Sicko" Moore interviews a man that is foreigner and still received medical care - how would that work? 3. How is an individual's medical information safeguarded in terms of privacy concerns, or is it not? Anyone turning up at A and E will be seen. There is also the problem of " health tourists " turning up on vacation knowing they need treatment. Its a problem the government are trying to address but as far as i know no one gets turned away, and its a drain on resources. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article2374072.ece Edits to add Uk residents normally get refered by the local GP. If you just arrive at A and E all you give is your name and address and that of the GP. All details are strictly confidential, i recently had a knee replacement and was asked if i would agree for details to be passed to researchers on the subject. So i would say yes, confidentiality is taken very seriously

meatcleaver -> RE: Vote Universal Healthcare (9/15/2007 5:34:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro As some of you seem familiar with the British National Health system, I'd like to ask the following questions: 1. How do you identify yourself to receive treatment? Is there an I.D. card? 2. In the film "Sicko" Moore interviews a man that is foreigner and still received medical care - how would that work? 3. How is an individual's medical information safeguarded in terms of privacy concerns, or is it not? Anyone turning up at A and E will be seen. There is also the problem of " health tourists " turning up on vacation knowing they need treatment. Its a problem the government are trying to address but as far as i know no one gets turned away, and its a drain on resources. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article2374072.ece All EU citizens have the right to emergency care in another EU country, all EU citizens have the right to equal access if resident in another EU country. There are also other health and education obligations every EU country has to other EU citizens. But you are right about health tourism from outside the EU but that is due to under funding, lack of ID and the refusal of Healthcare staff to turn away people in need (as a humanist, I find this no bad thing). It is not really a health issue as an inability of the British government to control its borders due to lack of investment. I'm not aware of other EU countries having this problem. EDIT Brits on average pay the same amount of taxes to their government as other EU citizens do to theirs. If Britain is failing in some area compared to its neighbours, Brits need to look at how their government is spending their taxes. Wasteless and pointless jollies like Iraq spring to mind.

Politesub53 -> RE: Vote Universal Healthcare (9/15/2007 5:44:40 AM)
Sorry Meatcleaver i forgot to mention the EU agreement.... There may be other countires with a recipricol agreement ( Australia ? ) but i am not sure... Interesting point that 18% of the health tourists are from North America though.. I also agree that on huminatarian grounds i feel everyone should be treated, finacially though thats just not viable.

meatcleaver -> RE: Vote Universal Healthcare (9/15/2007 5:45:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Sorry Meatcleaver i forgot to mention the EU agreement.... There may be other countires with a recipricol agreement ( Australia ? ) but i am not sure... Interesting point that 18% of the health tourists are from North America though.. I also agree that on huminatarian grounds i feel everyone should be treated, finacially though thats just not viable. That's interesting in light of the discussion.

MstrDennynSlave -> RE: Vote Universal Healthcare (9/15/2007 6:54:12 AM)
I've been reading the posts on here, and most of the posters are not for the low income having free insurance, government paid, universal healthcare, what have you. As someone who has to take care of my husband 24/7, due to leukemia and a recent stroke, I'm unable to work. His disability only covers so much a month. Some things have to give, and it is usually a bill here, or food. Due to our states medicaid laws, we have to pay $614 a month in spenddown before he even gets his medicaid card. We need that medicaid card to pay for his medicines every month. Some we cant get cause they cost too much. We have to go to Catholic Social Services, or other entities just to get the medicines to keep him from having another stroke. As for myself, I checked into health insurance for myself, self-pay. With my health issues, childhood diabetes, that thankfully is controlled by diet now, high blood pressure (that runs in my family), I would have to pay $250 a month for insurance. That is the cheapest that I can get. And I've checked with all the companies.There is no way I can afford that a month, let alone pay my husbands spenddown. We would have nothing to live on, couldnt pay rent/mortgage, plus utilities. The welfare office says I dont qualify for health care through them as I'm not disabled. Yet, they tell me to get a job. Would someone tell me how I could do that and still take care of my husband full time? Because of his age, 49, he doesnt qualify for programs that would let someone come in to relieve me if I worked. We are between the proverbial rock and a hard place. And we arent winning either.

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