Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Vote Universal Healthcare


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Vote Universal Healthcare Page: <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/15/2007 7:08:22 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I hope your more rightwing compatriots can empathize with you, particularly curiouslord who insists capitalism and private healthcare does work even though it is cruel. Cruel, it certainly is because if private healthcare worked, there wouldn't be cases like yours.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to MstrDennynSlave)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/15/2007 8:23:16 AM   
QuietlySeeking


Posts: 297
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		I work for a healthcare company who owns private hospitals in the UK. 
Those facilities are some of our most profitable facilities...and they are private, consumer-pay facilities in the midst of a "universal healthcare" nation.  If "universal healthcare" is so good, why are people still paying for anything out-of-pocket?

A good friend of mine from Canada wanted LASIK surgery to correct her vision.  She was told that it would be 22 months before she could receive that treatment in Canada.  She crossed the border and received the treatment within a week.

Medicare/Medicaid = socialized medicine in the US: how well is that working?  Can I point out the number of private insurance companies providing "Medigap" coverage?  Can I point out that if you have to go into a nursing home for care that the gov't will use possessions like a house to limit the amount of money you receive?

TennCare = socialized medicine in the state of TN: it was projected to consume 25% of the state budget at its inception; three years ago, it consumed almost 50%; 100,000 people were notified that they were no longer eligible under the rules established at the beginning of the program and yet a lawsuit prevented the state from removing most of them from the program.

I have to laugh at all the people here who are consistently arguing against government intrustion into our lives and then argue for what would be the largest gov't program every to be initiated (and likely the most expensive and most intrusive)?  If you don't the trust the gov't with your name and address, do you truly want to trust them to provide "insurance" for your healthcare?  with your medical records?  with determining what treatment you are "allowed" to receive?

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/15/2007 8:27:50 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

TennCare = socialized medicine in the state of TN: it was projected to consume 25% of the state budget at its inception; three years ago, it consumed almost 50%; 100,000 people were notified that they were no longer eligible under the rules established at the beginning of the program and yet a lawsuit prevented the state from removing most of them from the program.


Also the trial balloon for the Clintons' and Gores' national health plan... an abysmal failure.

(in reply to QuietlySeeking)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/15/2007 8:31:17 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking

I work for a healthcare company who owns private hospitals in the UK. 
Those facilities are some of our most profitable facilities...and they are private, consumer-pay facilities in the midst of a "universal healthcare" nation.  If "universal healthcare" is so good, why are people still paying for anything out-of-pocket?



Ever tried having cancer, a heart transplant, legionaire's desease or anything else that is life threatening on private healthcare? Private healthcare in Britain is a luxury top up, it doesn't function as a primary care service and functions at a profit because it creams off short term easy to deal with patients who have money to jump queues. When people with cancer choose private healthcare over the NHS, I'll admit the NHS isn't working.

What happens when people need 2,000 pound a shot medicine? You don't see private companies queuing up for their custom. If someone needs an asprin, that is fine, give them a bed and charge them 10 pounds a time.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/15/2007 8:35:33 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to QuietlySeeking)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/15/2007 8:47:57 AM   
QuietlySeeking


Posts: 297
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Ever tried having cancer, a heart transplant, legionaire's desease or anything else that is life threatening on private healthcare? Private healthcare in Britain is a luxury top up, it doesn't function as a primary care service and functions at a profit because it creams off short term easy to deal with patients who have money to jump queues. When people with cancer choose private healthcare over the NHS, I'll admit the NHS isn't working.


The internal figures that I've seen show that those who can afford to stay away from NHS....do. 

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/15/2007 8:50:07 AM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		At least those who can't afford it get some kind of healthcare. That's better than nothing at all, right?

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

(in reply to QuietlySeeking)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/15/2007 9:04:05 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

At least those who can't afford it get some kind of healthcare. That's better than nothing at all, right?


It is better than the absolute worst possible outcome, such as dying from complete neglect. 

But if that's the best the gummint has come up with, at what point should a better solution than just chanting the 'Universal Health Care' mantra be found?

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 9/15/2007 9:08:50 AM >

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/15/2007 9:08:22 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

So instead of the HMOs making your healthcare decisions....you want the government to make your healthcare decisions?

That's the fundamental problem with "universal healthcare." You make the government one giant insurance company. The person or entity paying the bill will always be the one making the decisions. Unless you opt to pay for your own healthcare out of pocket, you usually dont get the care or treatment you want.


Actually, that is not really the way it works.

What it does is allow the government to negotiate with big Pharma and big Medical from a position of power,
as opposed to the current system which makes the Government into big P/Ms bitch when it comes to billing
for services to the poor and indigent.

Way to go, SugarMyChurro

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/15/2007 9:18:42 AM   
kiyari


Posts: 631
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

"Universal" healthcare for minors, and perhaps the truly disabled and eldery, sure.  Minors aren't able to take care of themselves, some elderly might not be as able, and the truly disabled probably won't be, so that's fine.

Why in the world should normal adults need universal healthcare though?  Are we saying it's okay to just get a low paying job and stay there or blow your cash and let other people pick up the slack for you?


Umm... this aint your granddads economy, sadly.

There are adults floundering, coz their erstwhile decently paying career, has long since been in/out -sourced, and the 'theory' of age discrimination for older (read:adult) applicants, is quite alive and robust.

Honestly, I do not expect you to believe this, until it hits you or those who matter to you.

That's what is known as "The School of Hard Knocks"

Incredibly frustrating, when cause-and-effect DOES NOT APPLY

Can ya do the work? YES

aah... but that's not the criteria

*BZZZZT!!!*

gah

_____________________________

Black Water Dragon

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/15/2007 9:23:27 AM   
kiyari


Posts: 631
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

Besides collecting taxes and killing people, what is the gov't really good at?  
Reminds me of song "War"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_%28Edwin_Starr_song%29

We need to get gov't OUT of our lives.  

Reminds me of how my grandparents were promised things about Social Security,
such as the maximum rate of 1%, etc, etc, etc.

"Two term limits:  One in Congress and one in prison, both of equal length!"



Yah, as in: SS was NOT TO BE USED FOR IDENTIFICATION

Bleh

Stealing this for my Sigs collection, though! ~

"Two term limits:  One in Congress and one in prison, both of equal length!"

_____________________________

Black Water Dragon

(in reply to Crush)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/15/2007 9:28:10 AM   
willowspirit


Posts: 164
Joined: 6/20/2005
From: U.S.A.-Minnesota
Status: offline 		In a word, "NO!"
The health care industry is 1/7 th of the U.S. economy. Handing this over to the Federal Gov't is an absurd step toward massive centralization and moves us even closer to socialism and sky-rocketing taxes like you wouldn't believe!
The Feds have never been good managers of OUR money. Why should I think they'll do a good job of it  this  time  ?????

[however, maybe if they used the word "citizens" specifically (instead of "residents") it may help solve a whole other problem... But that's for a different thread]

< Message edited by willowspirit -- 9/15/2007 9:29:39 AM >

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/15/2007 9:34:52 AM   
kiyari


Posts: 631
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

"Universal" healthcare for minors, and perhaps the truly disabled and eldery, sure. 
Minors aren't able to take care of themselves, some elderly might not be as able, a
nd the truly disabled probably won't be, so that's fine.

Why in the world should normal adults need universal healthcare though? 
Are we saying it's okay to just get a low paying job and stay there 
or blow your cash and let other people pick up the slack for you?


CuriousLord:

That is not the definition of universal health care.

Like public streets and public education
there will always be those who use but do not pay.  
 
That is no reason for the rest of us to do without. 
 
I hope you are not suggesting that many people will intentionally get sick
just so they can access the health care system. 

thompson


Nah.

He is suggesting that otherwise able bodied GROWN UPS would [for reasons he has not elucidated]
CHOOSE to spend their time employed at sufficiently low wages so as to... what?

Defies logic to me,
presuming these GROWN UPS could have made a 'living wage'
but have -for some incomprehensible reason- CHOSEN not to.

I would MUCH rather my taxes go to human basics,
and as best as current society is capable of, than that they to
... the various 'pork' projects universally added to each and EVERY bill passed by Congress

... Never mind what Chimpie in Chief is allocating...

Try it: look at ANY BILL PASSED BY CONGRESS

Note after it's Title: the "and for Other Purposes"

_____________________________

Black Water Dragon

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/15/2007 9:45:25 AM   
kiyari


Posts: 631
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
I hope you are not suggesting
that many people will intentionally get sick
just so they can access the health care system. 

thompson


Actually, no. 

That was not in my thoughts at all here, but there is a point in it.

There's a lot of things people should do to help keep themselves healthy. 

Not only a health-based, but fiscal, motivation to do so. 

So what about those people who will be more prone to certain illnesses
due to reckless behavior, such as poor driving, drinking alcohol, using illegal drugs,
smoking, sun tanning excessively,
exposing themselves to STD's regularly and without always using precautions, etc.?

Also the richer part of society-
not the billionaires, but the middle class and the upper middle class- 

those people who stay up late at nights working,
never having wasted a weekend in a drunken stupor like so many of their peers,
putting work on the top of their list of priorities-

will be paying for the same quality health care of those who work part time,
spending every cent that they can skrunge for on booze or drugs. 

If they want better?  They get to pay for health care twice.


I have never been 'wealthy'.

I have always paid CASH for my 'health services',
largely because I eschew the 'big brother' and other aspects of the "Insurance Industry".

Maybe those poor misunderstood non-drunken work-a-holics might have a go at my route, then.

PAY DIRECTLY sans insurance.

What ya think?


_____________________________

Black Water Dragon

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/15/2007 9:50:17 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Ever tried having cancer, a heart transplant, legionaire's desease or anything else that is life threatening on private healthcare? Private healthcare in Britain is a luxury top up, it doesn't function as a primary care service and functions at a profit because it creams off short term easy to deal with patients who have money to jump queues. When people with cancer choose private healthcare over the NHS, I'll admit the NHS isn't working.


The internal figures that I've seen show that those who can afford to stay away from NHS....do. 


This may well be true QS but what is the main reason for it ?

1) You get seen quicker, in some cases this is a life saver i know.
2) You can get cosmetic surgey done which may otherside be unobtainable.
3) You think you are getting a better standard of care. This is not often the case, sure you get a private room and colour TV, all too often it`s the same consultants you would see in the NHS.

Although the NHS use healthcare services, this is only to bring down waiting lists and on average 40% dearer than an NHS op.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=411140

(in reply to QuietlySeeking)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/15/2007 9:58:08 AM   
kiyari


Posts: 631
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Everything i saw in America,
from consumer goods to housing to food is cheaper than it is in the UK.

It`s difficult to compare exactly,
as you need to take average wages and also land availability into consideration
when talking about housing.

<snippage to make some silly point, on my part>


Aah, but wages for the natives cleverly remain sommat less that what is needed
to support the worker-drone's continued stability.

Seems like bad design to me, somehow

_____________________________

Black Water Dragon

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/15/2007 9:58:38 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Although the NHS use healthcare services, this is only to bring down waiting lists and on average 40% dearer than an NHS op.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=411140


Too true politesub. The NHS is subsidizing private healthcare because of political obsession with figures rather than clinical need.

I'm still waiting for quietlyseeking to produce figures for people who are seriously and dangerously ill opting for private treatment.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/15/2007 10:03:45 AM   
kiyari


Posts: 631
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: johntom571

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

US doctors are given bonuses for turning patients away.
A universal healthcare doctor's salary is based on
the quality of healthcare given to patients.


Ahem, no it's not. 

I happen to live under a "universal:" health care system here in Canada,
and it SUCKS watermelon sideways. 

Here, doctors are being penalized for seeing too many patients (Cap on billing),
which is the stick instead of the carrot. 

Over there  

You can see a doctor for free anytime for anything, and everybody tries. 

Doctors are overworked. 
Most who graduate from med school go to work in the US. 

Millions of Canadians can't get a physician to accept their case,
and have to rely on urgent care clinics. 

It takes weeks to get an appointment if you DO have a MD,
and months to get a specialist referral. 

It's a great system, only if you can afford to WAIT. 

Lots of Canadian don't:
they go to Buffalo to get overnight brain surgery and MRI's,
or they go give birth to quadruplets in small midwest towns south of the border.

"universal" sounds good.  it's a great equalizer: everybody suffers. 
don't do it.

JohnTom, from Canada.


In the USA, patients are referred to as "revenue streams"

Seriously

Physicians have been reprimanded for not exhausting the litany of
"acceptable" various and sundry "tests" [all billable, of course],
in cases where the diagnosis was clear from the start.

Meh

_____________________________

Black Water Dragon

(in reply to johntom571)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/15/2007 10:19:23 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrDennynSlave

I've been reading the posts on here, and most of the posters are not for the low income having free insurance, government paid, universal healthcare, what have you. As someone who has to take care of my husband 24/7, due to leukemia and a recent stroke, I'm unable to work. His disability only covers so much a month. Some things have to give, and it is usually a bill here, or food. Due to our states medicaid laws, we have to pay $614 a month in spenddown before he even gets his medicaid card. We need that medicaid card to pay for his medicines every month. Some we cant get cause they cost too much. We have to go to Catholic Social Services, or other entities just to get the medicines to keep him from having another stroke. As for myself, I checked into health insurance for myself, self-pay. With my health issues, childhood diabetes, that thankfully is controlled by diet now, high blood pressure (that runs in my family), I would have to pay $250 a month for insurance. That is the cheapest that I can get. And I've checked with all the companies.There is no way I can afford that a month, let alone pay my husbands spenddown. We would have nothing to live on, couldnt pay rent/mortgage, plus utilities. The welfare office says I dont qualify for health care through them as I'm not disabled. Yet, they tell me to get a job. Would someone tell me how I could do that and still take care of my husband full time? Because of his age, 49, he doesnt qualify for programs that would let someone come in to relieve me if I worked. We are between the proverbial rock and a hard place. And we arent winning either.
 

After reading your brand-new profile, I'm finding it very difficult to believe that anything you're saying in this post is accurate.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 9/15/2007 10:21:14 AM >

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to MstrDennynSlave)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/15/2007 10:21:01 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kiyari


He is suggesting that otherwise able bodied GROWN UPS would [for reasons he has not elucidated]
CHOOSE to spend their time employed at sufficiently low wages so as to... what?

Defies logic to me,
presuming these GROWN UPS could have made a 'living wage'
but have -for some incomprehensible reason- CHOSEN not to.




      Not that many years ago, Kiyari, I had a job I loved.  I looked forward to going to work every day.  The light schedule allowed me to pursue other interests.  The job paid minimum, plus a token to my being good at it.  When I needed more money, it was easy enough to make a few bucks under the table.  I liked the lifestyle, even if it meant living on the cheap side.  I could have had a better paying job any time I wanted it (right next door, in fact.  I drank more than a few beers with a contractor who was always bitching about how hard it was to find workers with skills I never told him I had).  Eventually, I did decide to follow a more comfortably materialistic path.  Better health coverage was one of the motivators.

        Of course, whether or not I should properly have been considered a GROWN UP during those years would be another conversation.         

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 9/15/2007 10:25:16 AM >

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to kiyari)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Vote Universal Healthcare - 9/15/2007 10:24:17 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Real life tells anyone that you get to pick only two out of the following three charateristics in any product or service.
Cheap, Fast and Good, You get to pick any two at the sacrifice of the remaining one.
It's a fact of life you cannot avoid.
Fast and Good means it wont be cheap, Fast and Cheap means it wont be good, Good and Cheap means it won't be fast.
No matter who is providing the service these three things get traded off between them, how well they make the trades depends on the decission makers involved.
When the Government gets involved I tend to think they will actualize only one as opposed to two of the three.



(in reply to kiyari)
Profile   Post #: 80
Page:   <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Vote Universal Healthcare Page: <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109