RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving (Full Version)

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breatheasone -> RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving (9/16/2007 4:52:37 PM)

I'm sorry Bob...i'm not sure I know what you are trying to say....would you mind maybe rewording this?....Cause i'd like to understand.




KatyLied -> RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving (9/16/2007 4:55:08 PM)

I consider the entire "submission is a gift thing" nonsense.  As soon as I hear stuff about the "gift" my eyes start to roll and I almost drool.  I don't know why I have that reaction, I just find it to be a silly notion that people use, possibly in order to feel better about who they are at the core of their being.




HollyBlue -> RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving (9/16/2007 5:02:24 PM)

Interesting topic, Treasure, and an excellently written OP.

I view my submission as a gift, but the way I define that in my mind may be different than another would.

First of all, I think there are varying levels of submission, and that in play occurring between people who are not deeply emotionally involved, submission is more of an agreement than a gift.

However, in a M/s relationship like the one I have, submission is a one-time gift, and it's not really the gift of my submission...it's more the gift of my trust, and of my very being.

As someone said, I'm already submissive...that's just my state of mind. And when I submit to my Master in many things on a daily basis, I don't at all think that every little thing I give him is a gift. I also don't think that every time I submit I have the option to choose to do so or not to do so; I'm definitely not a "takee-backee" kind of giver.

For me, the "gift" of my "submission" (trust, self) was the step I took when I agreed to commit to being my Master's slave. He didn't "earn" my gift, but he did inspire my trust.

I think when a sub like me looks for a Master, she wants to make damned sure that when she leaps off the proverbial cliff of Total Power Exchange, she is leaping into the arms of someone who willing to and capable of catching her. Once the leap is taken, she does not climb back up the cliff...she has altered her world view (consensually) for the duration of her slavery to fully incorporate the idea that she belongs to her Master. Within the day-to-day aspects of the relationship, there is a lot of give-and-take that goes on between a Dominant and submissive, or a Master and slave. I doubt that in a truly healthy relationship either really out-gives the other.

But I do think I have given myself to my Master...in that I made the conscious choice no longer to belong to myself, but to belong to him instead. He did not earn or purchase this, so it was a gift freely given, but it wasn't a gift blindly given.

I knew beyond any doubt that he would catch me when I leapt into his loving, responsible, and delightfully sadistic arms.




desiroustoserve -> RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving (9/16/2007 5:17:55 PM)

I've heard the submission is a gift debate before and my viewpoint is closer to yours Stephan.  Hmmm.. a gift is a gift. It should be really simple.  Submission should be given in the spirit of expecting nothing in return.  It should be given from the heart because of the desire that is there to give. 

Its the mindset of being unconditional.  Of course we are imperfect humans but I think that most submissives strive for that. 

Agreed w/Stephan alot on his response.  I also think its very vain for a submissive to dictate what her worth is.  His or Her service should be the proof of that submission,  but what good is it without the Dominant there to accept it.




chiaThePet -> RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving (9/16/2007 5:25:37 PM)

Oh Thank God, i read the title and thought i had officially become an STD.

chia* (the pet)




Bobkgin -> RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving (9/16/2007 7:21:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

I'm sorry Bob...i'm not sure I know what you are trying to say....would you mind maybe rewording this?....Cause i'd like to understand.


You said when you give a gift you do not expect anything in return.

But I think most of us tend to give gifts to those we love the most: birthdays, holidays, anniversaries, etc.

We tend to give gifts in return for things we've already received.

It is not a payment. We don't have to give the gift.

We choose to give it in recognition for the things the other person did for us, and the feelings he/she inspired in us.

The gift is a token of our affection for that person.

And when I think of those kind of relationships, I have to say yes, I do expect them to continue. I don't expect them to end (short of death).

And the gift I give is me, my time, my effort and thought and love.

I give all of these things because I want my relationship with her to continue, to keep it healthy and joyful.

And if my partner is also giving herself, her time, her effort and thought and love, then I believe we have every reason to expect the relationship to conitnue.

We would each give to the other what the other desires and needs, and we would each receive what we need and desire from the other.

Yin-Yang: a harmonious balance of opposites.

So I do not see why giving the gift of subbmission with the expectation that it will enrich and further the relationship somehow invalidates it as a gift.

It is still voluntarily given as a token of respect and love.




Bobkgin -> RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving (9/16/2007 7:26:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: desiroustoserve

I also think its very vain for a submissive to dictate what her worth is.  His or Her service should be the proof of that submission,  but what good is it without the Dominant there to accept it.


So she should think herself worthless until such time as some dom (any dom) tells her differently?




RRafe -> RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving (9/16/2007 7:31:29 PM)

I think it's the idea that it's given in some altrustic sense that makes people call bullshit.

Especially when you see the hoops you have to jump through to get it-seems more than a little hypocrytical to call that a "gift".. Exchanges work better for my sense of trust.




breatheasone -> RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving (9/16/2007 7:41:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

I'm sorry Bob...i'm not sure I know what you are trying to say....would you mind maybe rewording this?....Cause i'd like to understand.


You said when you give a gift you do not expect anything in return.

But I think most of us tend to give gifts to those we love the most: birthdays, holidays, anniversaries, etc.

We tend to give gifts in return for things we've already received.

It is not a payment. We don't have to give the gift.

We choose to give it in recognition for the things the other person did for us, and the feelings he/she inspired in us.

The gift is a token of our affection for that person.

And when I think of those kind of relationships, I have to say yes, I do expect them to continue. I don't expect them to end (short of death).

And the gift I give is me, my time, my effort and thought and love.

I give all of these things because I want my relationship with her to continue, to keep it healthy and joyful.

And if my partner is also giving herself, her time, her effort and thought and love, then I believe we have every reason to expect the relationship to conitnue.

We would each give to the other what the other desires and needs, and we would each receive what we need and desire from the other.

Yin-Yang: a harmonious balance of opposites.

So I do not see why giving the gift of subbmission with the expectation that it will enrich and further the relationship somehow invalidates it as a gift.

It is still voluntarily given as a token of respect and love.

Bob i believe we are probably talking about the samething...you call it a gift...i call it having a relationship...thanks for making your point clearer.




jaxnsax -> RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving (9/16/2007 7:41:49 PM)


this is a fast reply to no one in particular
 
Greetings
I thought about this one quite a bit; I must admit that some of the answers that have been presented are quite interesting.
I am not sure that I agree with the phrase ‘submission is a gift’; but on the other hand, I can not discount it either.
For some, submission is such a part of who they are, that when they meet one who brings it out in them; it can indeed be seen as a gift.
For others, they see their submission as something that can never actually be ‘given away’.
When I am in a relationship; the only thing that I am giving or gifting is my trust. I don’t view this as being part of my submission though. It simply means what it says ‘I trust you’ . For myself, submission is a mental process;  I don’t see how something of this nature can be gifted or given to anyone.
Just my thoughts though.
jaxon




RRafe -> RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving (9/16/2007 7:46:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaxnsax


this is a fast reply to no one in particular
 
Greetings
I thought about this one quite a bit; I must admit that some of the answers that have been presented are quite interesting.
I am not sure that I agree with the phrase ‘submission is a gift’; but on the other hand, I can not discount it either.
For some, submission is such a part of who they are, that when they meet one who brings it out in them; it can indeed be seen as a gift.
For others, they see their submission as something that can never actually be ‘given away’.
When I am in a relationship; the only thing that I am giving or gifting is my trust. I don’t view this as being part of my submission though. It simply means what it says ‘I trust you’ . For myself, submission is a mental process;  I don’t see how something of this nature can be gifted or given to anyone.
Just my thoughts though.
jaxon



It's a romantic way to puff up and try to appear more worthy.




xoxi -> RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving (9/16/2007 7:48:23 PM)

I loved the OP...very eloquent and poignant expression of the concept, and I think this sums it up perfectly:

quote:

I think, when all is said and done, what many submissives are trying to convey by saying their submission is a gift, is that their submission is valuable and is voluntarily given to those they specifically deem worthy of receiving it.


I also liked the idea of considering it a gift in terms of a natural endowment, like the gift of music.  I'm definitely looking for someone with the gift of dominance.

I've always seen it as something definitely given, but also earned.  I like Bobkgin's idea that yes it is a gift to give, but also a gift of such high value that you would only give it to a loved one, and it's a token of your feelings for that person.

I suppose the flip side is that submission is more of an investment than a gift - that you give it with the expectation of getting something back.  Also it's not exactly charitable - most submissives don't feel complete without being able to submit, and so what they are really 'giving' is the chance to make themselves happy.  That also makes perfect sense to me.

I have never said my submission is a gift but I have said I don't submit to just anyone.  I really don't see why so many people are critical of the concept though.  If someone said "Our love is as eternal as a raindrop, it takes so many forms but is always there somehow" nobody would jump at the person and say "that is a horrible analogy!  Love is just a bunch of chemicals you get when you bone someone hot.  So it's closer to air freshener than a freaking RAINDROP you weirdo."  So why criticize "my submission is a gift?"  It's just a poetic way of expressing someone's feelings about something significant to them.




TreasureKY -> RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving (9/16/2007 7:52:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

I don't think its a gift either...I mean when I give a gift I don't expect anything in return...not the case with the submission i offer my Master. After all ALL relationships are give AND take.


I'm a bit confused by what you've written.  You say submission is not a gift because you do not expect anything in return when you give a gift.  Are you saying that you do expect something in return from your dominant for your submission?

This idea that receiving something in return somehow invalidates the gift doesn't make much sense to me.  Is your dominant not free to give you a gift, as well? 

lol... If this is true, it makes Christmas so much easier... "I'm sorry, I didn't get you anything because I didn't want to insult you by invalidating your gift to me."

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

I'm sorry Bob...i'm not sure I know what you are trying to say....would you mind maybe rewording this?....Cause i'd like to understand.


What Bobkgin is trying to tell you is that while you might not expect anything in return for a gift, typically the person you give a gift to has already "earned" it.  How they earn it is immaterial... what matters is that they have gained your esteem, respect, friendship or love and in return you wish to give them a token of your esteem.

lol... So really, your gift is given in return for what they have already given you.

I could argue that there are very few gifts given in this world if we go strictly by the concept that they have to be unearned.  I think that even charitable gifts can be considered "earned".  Charity is often determined based on whether the recipient has sufficient need or is deserving.  If you don't believe me, try dressing to the nines and then go out begging... see how much "charity" you receive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

I consider the entire "submission is a gift thing" nonsense.  As soon as I hear stuff about the "gift" my eyes start to roll and I almost drool.

That might explain why you didn't get anything from the op.  It's very hard to be open-minded and thoughtful when you are in that kind of state.

quote:

ORIGINAL: desiroustoserve

... It should be really simple.  Submission should be given in the spirit of expecting nothing in return.  It should be given from the heart because of the desire that is there to give.


So you're saying that submission should be a gift?

gift (g[image]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gif[/image]ft)  noun 1.something given voluntarily without payment in return, as to show favor toward someone, honor an occasion, or make a gesture of assistance; present.

quote:

ORIGINAL: desiroustoserve

... I also think its very vain for a submissive to dictate what her worth is.  His or Her service should be the proof of that submission,  but what good is it without the Dominant there to accept it.


I'm not sure where you got the idea that anything in the op suggested that a submissive dictates how much a dominant should value her submission.  Well... I take that back, you got it from Stephann, but Lord only knows where he picked that up.

Just because I value my submission and am selective about who I give it to, doesn't mean that I'm insisting that he is required to value me just exactly the same amount.  Of course, part of that being selective is finding a dominant who has shown me that he is worthy of what I feel I'm worth. 

lol... and Bobkgin has an excellent point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet

Oh Thank God, i read the title and thought i had officially become an STD.

chia* (the pet)


Chia... I'm afraid you lost me on that one.  [;)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

I think it's the idea that it's given in some altrustic sense that makes people call bullshit.

Especially when you see the hoops you have to jump through to get it-seems more than a little hypocrytical to call that a "gift".. Exchanges work better for my sense of trust.


I can understand why you might feel that way if you are jumping through hoops trying to get someone to submit to you.




TreasureKY -> RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving (9/16/2007 7:57:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

So why criticize "my submission is a gift?"  It's just a poetic way of expressing someone's feelings about something significant to them.


lol...

xoxi, you've just taken my op and this entire thread and summed it up nicely.  As I've said, I don't personally use the phrase but if others do, more power to them.  I kind of think of it as a secret code... as a way to attract those dominants whose views are similar.  I've also seen plenty of dominants who use it the same way to attract submissives.  [;)]




Bobkgin -> RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving (9/16/2007 8:19:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

So why criticize "my submission is a gift?"  It's just a poetic way of expressing someone's feelings about something significant to them.


lol...

xoxi, you've just taken my op and this entire thread and summed it up nicely.  As I've said, I don't personally use the phrase but if others do, more power to them.  I kind of think of it as a secret code... as a way to attract those dominants whose views are similar.  I've also seen plenty of dominants who use it the same way to attract submissives.  [;)]



It is a code of sorts, when sincerely used.

It means I respect my slave's ability to surrender herself to me. I recognize it takes more courage than I'm likely to ever have.

For her to see me as the one worthy and deserving of that kind of trust is the ultimate validation of my ethics and integrity.

Assuming she is a someone worthy of my love and respect.




Stephann -> RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving (9/16/2007 8:19:55 PM)

... To boot, I make it quite clear that a slave 'owns' nothing in my relationships.  A slave would then have to own that gift in the first place, to give it to me.  Instead, it's already mine by virtue of the nature of our Master/slave relationship.[/quote]

I understand what you're saying here, Stephann, but your logic is circuitous.  A slave would indeed own her submission in the first place.  She would have to "gift" it to you before you could have a Master/slave relationship.

I would ask you if you are one who believes that your slave never has the right to take back her submission should she lose all faith and trust in you?

Understanding that we suspend disbelief to make 'consensual' slavery function is a necessary componant.  The 'slave' in my dynamic has no rights.  Period.  If she wanted rights, she wouldn't be a slave, she'd simply be a submissive girlfriend (though, technically, my slave is also a submissive girlfriend, but not all submissive girlfriends are slaves.)  Her submission is never gifted to me; , I consider it to be a natural response to my dominance.   Not every woman will respond to me in this fashion, of course, just as I wouldn't actively seek to dominate every woman in my life.  I have found it to be rather difficult, in fact, because as traits they aren't something I turn on and off.  One of my bosses was 20 years my senior, with five kids and a loving wife...yet it was clear that she enjoyed submitting to me (in the limited context that our relationship permitted.)  She took every opportunity to spend time with me in a professional, and often personal situations.  I don't think she liked me for me, so much as she enjoyed the feeling of learning from (with a rather strong componant of obeying) me (I was giving her English classes, since she had never lived abroad.) 

The submissive girlfriend, the one with a Social Security number, a signed lease, parents, co-workers, volunteer obligations, a college degree, and weekly appointments to her therapist has the right to terminate the relationship at any time.  The slave inside her, does not.  Instead, the slave simply terminates the suspension of disbelief, unlplugs from the matrix, and carries on with 'real' life.  She doesn't do so 'as a slave' but rather as an adult withdrawing consent.  While this may be drawing a distinction that a woman can't be a slave simultaneously, the reality is that what we refer to as a 'slave' obviously is an internally accepted, externally maintained state.  It's neither a legal, nor culturally binding state, thus it is fluid (and indeed, is 'switched' on and off depending on circumstances.)

I hope that explains a little better.

Stephan




Stephann -> RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving (9/16/2007 8:42:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

So why criticize "my submission is a gift?"  It's just a poetic way of expressing someone's feelings about something significant to them.


lol...

xoxi, you've just taken my op and this entire thread and summed it up nicely.  As I've said, I don't personally use the phrase but if others do, more power to them.  I kind of think of it as a secret code... as a way to attract those dominants whose views are similar.  I've also seen plenty of dominants who use it the same way to attract submissives.  [;)]



I love poetry.  That doesn't mean I'll let a girl cover her ass with Poe's collected works [;)]   Those who seem most adamant about their submission being a gift seem to have made a suit of armor from iron bound poetry.

Stephan




breatheasone -> RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving (9/16/2007 8:54:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

I don't think its a gift either...I mean when I give a gift I don't expect anything in return...not the case with the submission i offer my Master. After all ALL relationships are give AND take.


I'm a bit confused by what you've written.  You say submission is not a gift because you do not expect anything in return when you give a gift.  Are you saying that you do expect something in return from your dominant for your submission?
Yep thats what i'm saying

This idea that receiving something in return somehow invalidates the gift doesn't make much sense to me.
I didnt say any of that, i said i didnt feel submission is a gift because when i give a gift i don't expect anything in return.

  Is your dominant not free to give you a gift, as well?
My Master is free to do whatever He pleases.

lol... If this is true, it makes Christmas so much easier... "I'm sorry, I didn't get you anything because I didn't want to insult you by invalidating your gift to me."
Again...i really don't know how you get this from what i said but you are free to misread what i wrote if you want.

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

I'm sorry Bob...i'm not sure I know what you are trying to say....would you mind maybe rewording this?....Cause i'd like to understand.


What Bobkgin is trying to tell you(from what i've seen Bob has zero trouble speaking for himself)
 is that while you might not expect anything in return for a gift, typically the person you give a gift to has already "earned" it.  How they earn it is immaterial... what matters is that they have gained your esteem, respect, friendship or love and in return you wish to give them a token of your esteem.

lol... So really, your gift is given in return for what they have already given you.

I could argue that there are very few gifts given in this world if we go strictly by the concept that they have to be unearned.  I think that even charitable gifts can be considered "earned".  Charity is often determined based on whether the recipient has sufficient need or is deserving.  If you don't believe me, try dressing to the nines and then go out begging... see how much "charity" you receive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

I consider the entire "submission is a gift thing" nonsense.  As soon as I hear stuff about the "gift" my eyes start to roll and I almost drool.

That might explain why you didn't get anything from the op.  It's very hard to be open-minded and thoughtful when you are in that kind of state.

quote:

ORIGINAL: desiroustoserve

... It should be really simple.  Submission should be given in the spirit of expecting nothing in return.  It should be given from the heart because of the desire that is there to give.


So you're saying that submission should be a gift?

gift (g[image]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gif[/image]ft)  noun 1.something given voluntarily without payment in return, as to show favor toward someone, honor an occasion, or make a gesture of assistance; present.

quote:

ORIGINAL: desiroustoserve

... I also think its very vain for a submissive to dictate what her worth is.  His or Her service should be the proof of that submission,  but what good is it without the Dominant there to accept it.


I'm not sure where you got the idea that anything in the op suggested that a submissive dictates how much a dominant should value her submission.  Well... I take that back, you got it from Stephann, but Lord only knows where he picked that up.

Just because I value my submission and am selective about who I give it to, doesn't mean that I'm insisting that he is required to value me just exactly the same amount.  Of course, part of that being selective is finding a dominant who has shown me that he is worthy of what I feel I'm worth. 

lol... and Bobkgin has an excellent point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet

Oh Thank God, i read the title and thought i had officially become an STD.

chia* (the pet)


Chia... I'm afraid you lost me on that one.  [;)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

I think it's the idea that it's given in some altrustic sense that makes people call bullshit.

Especially when you see the hoops you have to jump through to get it-seems more than a little hypocrytical to call that a "gift".. Exchanges work better for my sense of trust.


I can understand why you might feel that way if you are jumping through hoops trying to get someone to submit to you.





TreasureKY -> RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving (9/17/2007 12:20:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

... Those who seem most adamant about their submission being a gift seem to have made a suit of armor from iron bound poetry.


Perhaps they have in the hopes that someone will come along who possesses the fortitude and determination to pierce that armor.  [;)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

Yep thats what i'm saying


Thank you.  I wasn't sure if I was understanding what you were saying.

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

This idea that receiving something in return somehow invalidates the gift doesn't make much sense to me.

I didnt say any of that, i said i didnt feel submission is a gift because when i give a gift i don't expect anything in return.

  Is your dominant not free to give you a gift, as well?
My Master is free to do whatever He pleases.

lol... If this is true, it makes Christmas so much easier... "I'm sorry, I didn't get you anything because I didn't want to insult you by invalidating your gift to me."

Again...i really don't know how you get this from what i said but you are free to misread what i wrote if you want.


I do apologize, breatheasone... while these comments were included after my request for clarification from you, they weren't specifically addressed to you... though it appeared that they were.  That was my error in not being clear.

These were additional thoughts addressing in general the idea that I've heard that a gift cannot be a gift at all if there is any expectation of something given in return.  I'm not saying that gifts are generally given with the "here, I'm giving you something now where's mine" attitude, but I do believe there are usually expectations attached to gift giving... if nothing more than an expectation of a thank you (or some acknowledgement of receipt) or, as Bobkgin said, an expectation to continue sharing a good relationship.  I would have to say that for me, my most common expectation is that my gift will be accepted.  lol... That's a sure fire way to invalidate a gift; refuse to accept it.

I also admit that "expectation" may be too strong of a word here... perhaps "hope" would be better.

Anyway... I'm not inferring that if expectations are not met, that the gift will be taken back.  Most often it will just lead to disappointment and perhaps reluctance to give in the future.

I think that the general impression I've gotten (from those who put forth the idea) is that if there are any expectations involved in giving a gift, and anything is received in return, the gift is no longer a valid gift but becomes a trade.  But perhaps that is my misunderstanding.

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

What Bobkgin is trying to tell you

(from what i've seen Bob has zero trouble speaking for himself)


I agree that Bobkgin does very well on his own... and again, I do apologize.   At the time I began this response, Bob had not yet replied to you and in my offering clarification, I had the opportunity to give some additional thoughts I had in that area.  Before I had completed my post I did notice Bob's reply, but didn't feel it necessary to remove my own comments as they might be beneficial to someone.




meatcleaver -> RE: Submission… the gift that keeps on giving (9/17/2007 12:20:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The whole implication of the idea of submission being a gift is that the sub gives and the dom takes.


Only if you don't see domination as a gift as well. We give and take from each other.


As a fifty year old man, I hope the female I am dealing with is also an adult. This whole 'submisssion is a gift' thing, makes a woman sound to me like a  high maintenance stropy teenager. They appear to me to be women who want to be treated like a slut but only by that 'special' someone and by god, he'd better be thankful for what I'm giving him. They are really morally fucked up and in need of treatment as far as I can see. It's all so tiring, the moment a woman says 'the gift thing' I turn off. After one experience of a morally fucked up high maintenance woman who thought submission is a gift' and seeing similar traits she had in other women that believe such nonsense, no more.

The simple fact is if you meet someone the process is simple. I like him and what he is about and I would like to explore the potential of this relationship a little further and vice versa for the man. There is really nothing precious about it. If both people aren't getting something out of it, it isn't going to work anyway.




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