Emotional Masochism

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luvdragonx -> Emotional Masochism (7/19/2005 12:13:52 AM)
While soul searching recently, I began to wonder if the tendency to continually endure/go back for more emotional pain is another face of masochism. I believe the general population regards this as unhealthy behavior and advises against it. Since BDSM is certainly not limited to physical challenges, does this type of behavior fall into the mental category? Or does this cross a line? Edited to ask: if there is an old thread on this topic, I would appreciate the links, thanks.

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/19/2005 12:40:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luvdragonx the tendency to continually endure/go back for more emotional pain is another face of masochism. I believe the general population regards this as unhealthy behavior and advises against it. Since BDSM is certainly not limited to physical challenges, does this type of behavior fall into the mental category? Or does this cross a line? In my opinion, this type of behavior usually leads to further breaking/corrosion of one's will, spirit, and self worth, which are necessary for survival or for one's general well being. I'm all for consensual S/M or verbal/physical words/acts which are enjoyable or endured for the purpose of a happy/satisfying relationship between 2 or more people; but what I understand from your post is "is this okay/similar to masochism" if and when one is in a relationship which keeps breaking up because of problematic words/deeds, and making up because parts of it was fun or one is too lonely/broken to do anything else, and in that case I think it is crossing a line. M

MrThorns -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/19/2005 6:00:31 AM)
Interesting topic... One of the things I have noticed about some people who have endured psychological or emotional abuse in their past is that it is difficult for them to find comfort in a supportive and healthy environment. I'll explain... Imagine growing up in an environment where you endure pain on some level...every single day. You live in this environment for years and develop the necessary survival skills to exist and maintain your sanity within that environment. That environment becomes the "norm" Now, years down the road, you are no longer in that environment. You don't need the survival skills or coping mechnisms that you had developed. You are out of what you had considered to be the "norm" and with that, comes a feeling of discomfort. Some people in these situations will go back into an emotionally abusive reltionship because, oddly enough, it makes them feel normal again. Now, I understand that you weren't talking about abuse. You were talking about emotional pain and it's relationship to BDSM. I know emotional pain is used by some people as a training tool, but personally I tend to steer away from anything that could cause damage on that particular level. Could it be another form of masochism? Sure, but I have yet to encounter anyone who refers to themselves as an emotional pain slut. ~Thorns

Faramir -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/19/2005 7:38:16 AM)
I don't think so. As I understand masochism, it is relational. It is a way of relating to another - if I could paraphrase CS Lewis: quote: The sadist says, "I do this to you - hurt you this way, do you still love me?" To which the masochist replies, "Yes and more, you may do all this and make me love you more." This may not be universally resonant, but it stuck with me. It is not about the masochist suffering per se, but rather, suffering in relation to the sadist. Stubbing your toe isn't masochism, being flogged is. A co-worker saying something cruel that causes emotional distress isn't masochism, emotional sadism from your dom is. What I think you are describing (correct me if I am wrong) is self-destructive behaviour - making repeated mistakes and failing to change the behaviour - ie repeatedly picking mates who are unfaithful, ending up again and again in relationships that do real harm, etc. That would not be masochism, but rather a maladaptive response.

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/19/2005 12:58:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Faramir What I think you are describing (correct me if I am wrong) is self-destructive behaviour - making repeated mistakes and failing to change the behaviour - ie repeatedly picking mates who are unfaithful, ending up again and again in relationships that do real harm, etc. That would not be masochism, but rather a maladaptive response. That was also my understanding, and why I thought "crossing a line." M

LadyAngelika -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/19/2005 4:42:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig quote: ORIGINAL: Faramir What I think you are describing (correct me if I am wrong) is self-destructive behaviour - making repeated mistakes and failing to change the behaviour - ie repeatedly picking mates who are unfaithful, ending up again and again in relationships that do real harm, etc. That would not be masochism, but rather a maladaptive response. That was also my understanding, and why I thought "crossing a line." M I'll agree with this and try and give my definition of how I perceive emotional masochism. To me, it is getting involved in a long distance primary relationship, or things of that sort, anything were you are knowingly putting yourself in a situation where things will be harder/more complicated then they have to be. Being the mistress of a married man is another example. I am a physical masochist and to a certain degree an psychological masochist (I love a good mind fuck). I am also a sadist in both arenas too. I tend to stay away from emotional masochism as I find that there is no pay off, or if it is, it doesn't ease the pain or make it feel better. All it is, is long, drawn out melodrama. - LA

slavedesires -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/19/2005 6:25:03 PM)
I believe this forum dove tails alot with caitlyn's "Beyond Understanding" ~~shy BTW, i consider myself an emotional masochist. Do i need physical pain? or emotional pain to find pleasure? It has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with it. I would rather endure emotional pain than physical pain any day......maybe possibly becasue i have found the adaptive mechanisms that work for me. If you "need" to inquire further about what i mean....IM me on the other side... sincere requests ONLY.

Gemeni -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/19/2005 7:17:19 PM)
One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again-and expecting different results. It fits.[8\|]

luvdragonx -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/19/2005 9:18:25 PM)
To All, thanks for the responses so far. I'll see if I can break this down a little further. What I was wondering: is the masochistic tendency what causes this sort of behavior? We could make the general statement that masochists seek out pain. One step further and say they seek out pain inflicted by someone else. Is it then correct to say that masochism only involves physical elements - emotional elements indicate a different issue/problem altogether? When I speak of the person who returns to go through more emotional pain than might be necessary, I don't speak of the woman who keeps hoping things will be different. Have you ever done something you knew would hurt, but the promise of personal fulfillment (in this case, a better understanding and psychological strength) made it seem worth it? I'll use a recent situation as an example. My ex and I had a bad, unresolved break up. We still kept in contact and although I knew some subjects would be painful to deal with (his new girl) I didn't avoid them in an effort to somehow cope with it. I know myself, and the longer I'm left to stew on something, the longer it takes to get over it. It took 2 or 3 of these seemingly pointless, painful conversations and talking with others to pop the bubble if you will. Overnight, the feelings about that relationship are a mere shadow of what they were before. When I would talk to him, I didn't delude myself into thinking I'd change him in anyway, the change I was looking for was internal. I knew it had to hurt bad enough for me to let it go. I have no idea what a professional would say about my approach, but it worked for me and I couldn't feel better. This is what leads me to question emotional masochism. If the intent is to find peace through pain, would that fall under BDSM 'guidelines'? Just like any other sensation, there's a lot of right ways and a lotta wrong ways to get them. Could there be a right way to do this? Edited to add: I don't believe this is something people actively seek out to continually do over and over again. I was just thinking that this trait, with the specific intention of achieving a personal positive, is another facet of masochism.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/20/2005 5:21:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luvdragonx What I was wondering: is the masochistic tendency what causes this sort of behavior? We could make the general statement that masochists seek out pain. One step further and say they seek out pain inflicted by someone else. Is it then correct to say that masochism only involves physical elements - emotional elements indicate a different issue/problem altogether? No I think there is psychological sadism and masochism like I described in my post which is different then emotional masochism, in my opinion at least. They deal with the psyche and not the emotions. quote: When I speak of the person who returns to go through more emotional pain than might be necessary, I don't speak of the woman who keeps hoping things will be different. Have you ever done something you knew would hurt, but the promise of personal fulfillment (in this case, a better understanding and psychological strength) made it seem worth it? Of course. Somethings are hard to go through but they are necessary. However, for me, unlike psychological and physical S&M, I don’t look forward to it. And if I can put a Sadistic perspective slant on this, as much as I love to inflict psychological and physical sadism, I do my utmost never to inflict emotional sadism. quote: I knew it had to hurt bad enough for me to let it go. I have no idea what a professional would say about my approach, but it worked for me and I couldn't feel better. My ex did the same thing to me. I resent him for doing this. I wish he would have found a way to get over me without having to drag me into it. I believe he was both an emotional masochist and sadist. That is my perception of things. quote: This is what leads me to question emotional masochism. If the intent is to find peace through pain, would that fall under BDSM 'guidelines'? Just like any other sensation, there's a lot of right ways and a lotta wrong ways to get them. Could there be a right way to do this? I’m not sure. I think I dislike it too much to give an objective opinion about whether or not it could be safe. I’ll let others tackle this one. quote: Edited to add: I don't believe this is something people actively seek out to continually do over and over again. Oh but I do! I see it every single day. Some people love to wallow in their misery. quote: I was just thinking that this trait, with the specific intention of achieving a personal positive, is another facet of masochism. The problem is that I highly doubt that most emotional masochists consciously take on the pain with the intent of having a positive outcome. In the case of emotional masochism, usually feelings get in the way of reason. I am a big believer in the Nietzschian perspective that whatever doesn’t kill you will make you stronger. Sometimes we chose the harder path out of choice because the destination is worth it and sometimes we just find ourselves on it and need to find a way to deal. But I see no nobility in always choosing the harder path for the sake of always choosing the harder path. That is what martyrs do. And I’ve dealt with 2 of those in past relationships. Not a pretty picture. - LA

slavedesires -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/20/2005 6:45:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gemeni One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again-and expecting different results. It fits.[8\|] When an emotianal masochist adapts and finds coping mechanisms, they can either stay in the same rut or they can grow, realizing the cause of the E.M., ackknowledging it and go forward. Those that stay, stay wounded. Those that grow, are like a rose in the thorn bush. Those attempting to pluck the rose, say to hell with it,orthey ignore the thorns or they work with the thorns. I also believe that the thorns can be pruned away to allow the rose greater beauty. The pruner can be a therapist, self, a friend, a teacher/guide/mentor, but always the rose must have input and still desire to change. Its so much easierat times to speak in allegory. ~~Shy

slavedesires -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/20/2005 6:49:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luvdragonx To All, thanks for the responses so far. I'll see if I can break this down a little further. What I was wondering: is the masochistic tendency what causes this sort of behavior? We could make the general statement that masochists seek out pain. One step further and say they seek out pain inflicted by someone else. Is it then correct to say that masochism only involves physical elements - emotional elements indicate a different issue/problem altogether? Try this: http://www.darkrose.com/bdsmarticles.html Pleasure Not Panic The Art of Welcoming Pain by Joseph W. Bean ~~shy

slavedesires -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/20/2005 6:55:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luvdragonx When I speak of the person who returns to go through more emotional pain than might be necessary, I don't speak of the woman who keeps hoping things will be different. Have you ever done something you knew would hurt, but the promise of personal fulfillment (in this case, a better understanding and psychological strength) made it seem worth it? This is what leads me to question emotional masochism. If the intent is to find peace through pain, would that fall under BDSM 'guidelines'? Just like any other sensation, there's a lot of right ways and a lotta wrong ways to get them. Could there be a right way to do this? Edited to add: I don't believe this is something people actively seek out to continually do over and over again. I was just thinking that this trait, with the specific intention of achieving a personal positive, is another facet of masochism. I responded on the other thread to caitlyn in private email.... caitlyn: This is strange thinking, perhaps even sick ... but for some people those feelings are so real, and they will not go away. The represent an urge you cannot fight and a battle you will never win. You can deal with the pain of abuse, Me: Physically perhaps, but it never goes completely away emotionally. The urge and the battle reside within you till you release it. And it will not be released all at one time. I was told by my therapist many years ago...if it was all released at one time, you would go freakin mad...so God heals us like an onion is peeled...one layer at a time. ~~Shy

pineapplesub -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/20/2005 8:29:21 AM)
This explanation is probably going to sound very clumsy, so please forgive me in advance. Sometimes i struggle for ways to phrase what i'm thinking, and it comes out in a garbled mess. :) I, personally, do not believe the behavior you are describing falls into the "BDSM" category, for lack of a better phrase. I do the same thing, and while some of it is related to BDSM, it is not the same. What you are describing is simply a way that you cope with things that generally you would not be able to. If you don't lance the wound, it will fester, per se. But i feel the same way about people who use physical pain as a way to feel more in sync (myself included). That part sounds awkward, and i'm not sure how to fix it, so i'll explain. :) I sometimes have a very hard time expressing my emotions. As a masochist, or at least a masochistically tinged submissive, i enjoy pain. However, every once in a long while i need things that i would normally enjoy painwise applied to me in order to simply break my emotional dams. Once the tears start, the continue for an entirely different reason. To me that's not masochism, but simply a device you can use to help yourself get through a difficult time. ~val~

luvdragonx -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/20/2005 3:28:06 PM)
This all makes sense. This particular subject leads me to contemplate how many actions/behaviors walk the line of being BDSM related/personality issues. My OP and subsequent reply was in no way an endorsement of this kind of behavior as healthy behavior. I just was curious about it in the BDSM context; how many people could relate this type of thing, and if the overall makeup of a masochist is what made emotional masochism possible. Thank you slavedesires for the link. I recommend anyone perusing to take a look at it. After reading it, other articles and thinking even more, I've come to my own conclusions about emotional masochism. The first is that the key difference in what I described and masochism in the BDSM world is enjoyment, not just tolerance. I don't think it's possible to enjoy emotional pain, because, once you enjoy it, how is it painful? Not to say that people don't enjoy the attention to be garnered from suffering through distress, but that's a different animal altogether. The second thing I've concluded is that there are many many ways to take problems, disorders and flat out sicknesses, paint them with the BDSM colors and say "See? It's okay, it's just another kink!" Yes, slavedesires, it does fit right in with caitlyns 'Beyond Understanding' thread. Coming to the table as a whole person (or a least with the glue mostly dry) is the best way to avoid these kinds of confusions. Lastly, I believe Emotional Masochism is probably a misnomer, since there is no true enjoyment to be had. Emotional Self-Injuring is probably more appropriate. Thanks to all of you who took the time to give feedback :)

anopheles -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/26/2005 3:06:06 PM)
I think we can all fall victim to the "Glutton for Punishment" syndrome. There probably isn't anybody walking that hasn't. In the context of BDSM however, I feel it's a thin tight rope. A D/s relationship, by nature, should hinge on trust. Without trust, it falls apart. It becomes either unsatisfying, or abusive. Emontional and mental masochism can be a very powerful area for both sides of a D/s relationship to touch upon, as long as the trust is there. In terms of practicality, I think there HAS to be balance, or "straight" time. You cannot expect anyone to endure constant emotional torment with no release. That will lead to hardening of the soul, and which one of us needs that? I don't believe that anyone truly wants to submit themselves to constant battering of their emotions, without some moments to come up to the surface, ya know?

RiotGirl -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/26/2005 7:44:11 PM)
hmmm.. i think you are talking coping mechanism. i think it there is also e. m. in BDSM. What is abandoment? i am sure there are others. i think some dont know how to escape emotional pain. It is all over. Others may think that the outcome is worth it. Be a parent. Your child goes crazy, does terrible and harmful things. It causes you pain.. will you stick it out to the end (is the emotional pain worth it) or will you take off and leave then? Some dont believe in giving up, no matter where the road takes, just as long as who ever you're sticking it out for, is worth it. its a rare thing to find, somebody worth it. Somebody worth sticking it out with through better or worse. hmmmmm.. yes it must be rare, as there are so many divorces.....

pup -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/26/2005 9:48:28 PM)
We discussed this in length on a couple of lists this year.. Ill copy some of my replys on the subjects. I hope you can decipher my ramblings.. and I hope they help a little. ---------------------------------------------------------------- I can deductively, and in a mental and physically sound way delve into emotional "suicide", and bring myself out of it. Just as I can delve into constant fits of giddiness and laughter and come back to normal. I have every right under the sun to hurt myself, regardless of who thinks they can "protect" me, you can not control someone who wont let you. When it becomes an uncontrollable state, that I can not regulate, or affects, or hurts what I am doing, or the people around, then it may become unhealthy to me. I have many leather family members to slap me back on the right course either, and all of us in the community watch that for each other. I can live unprotected without mommy holding my hand all day. Kind of have to, to get to work. (look both ways when crossing the street jimmy) That clear mental acuity and psychological understanding of my spirit and emotions allows me to play deeper within myself safely. I have worked so hard on my mind and spirit; I have eliminated "addiction" from my life. I can smoke for a week, and set them down for a year without a second thought, I know when and when not to drink, due to my emotional and mental state. I actually went through a period of my life of heavy to extreme alcohol and drug addiction. I did the standard gothic depressed pierced to hell thing with 72 piercings. Now if I feel depressed or down or even feel like I want or need a drink, I usually won't, if I am in a drinking situation, and I am happy and at peace, I will have a drink. The strength of slave, and the strength of their family determines where and far down they play within themselves. I have that protection to bring me back to the surface. So you know what? I can actually let go of my tight ass, and let all the emotions and feelings take control, and actually transcend the mundane. Do not tell me you've never had a sadistic image or thought of hurting someone that scared you a little. Everyone human being on this planet has, and that is the darkness I speak of. Most people, who do not accept that part of them, are the average everyday joe who finally snaps and kills everyone in the kindergarten playground. -------------------------------------------------------- In the need for each side to give, protect, demand, or serve we hit things that we give up consensually that may hurt us, and we either do not talk about it, or it is put over our head in a manner of passive or passive aggressive manipulation. "fridayeyes: even in vanilla life, we will consent to things - like babysitting for a sister's kid - that we ultimately do NOT want to do, and in BDSM, we have a stronger feeling about what that does to the consent" There are people who do not try to hurt themselves and others, people who quietly manipulate to hurt themselves and others(intentionally or by nature), and people who intentionally and openly hurt themselves and others. I think what we are talking about, I pointed it out in one of my posts, is we are against any of those factors imposing it in a nonconsensual manner, or in a consensual, but manipulatively harmful manner. Are we against something that is hidden in a consensual act but hurts one person in a manipulative manner, though the other person gave that act freely? Of course, these games enrage all of us and they are played. I feel that is the core to the meaning: passive, aggressive, or passive-aggressive manipulation in a consensual substance. Examples from friday: "fridayeyes (1:21:28 PM): another example for me - a leash makes me feel absolutely ridiculous, almost all of the time. If I do the leash thing, it's utterly for the sake of the other, and the only good thing about it is that the partner likes it" Well I may argue that giving that is a good thing, but that is another topic. My example: Embarassing me when I am being professional or serious about something. It fires me up, but as a slave I let it slide. If it steps over the line, I talk to them about it later. So I think we are talking about when we approach the edge of that line repetitively without actually stepping over it. Dealing with relationship dynamics of reaction, rather than masochism.

caitlyn -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/27/2005 9:57:45 AM)
I wanted to wait a while before responding to this, and wanted to keep my response short. If physical abuse is beyong understanding, as many feel it is ... emotional or mental abuse goes well past even that into areas so dark that no light at the end of the tunnel can even be seen. Some find the defense mechanism of escallating things to the physical level ... finding it easier to deal with that rather than the mental. They are only bruises and cuts after all. Children get those every day while playing in the yard. Remember when pinkpleasures used the term "person-in-waiting?" That term says quite a bit with very few words, and has really stuck with me. I think going back for more, whatever that more is, has a lot to do with beating yourself up for your past and not being all that sure that you have enough worth to even have a future. If you are a person-in-waiting, this is just going to be your lot, I guess. I probably don't even belong on this site ... I'm not really a proper submissive at all, and I'm not even bi (collarme needs a bi-curious selection) ... I'm not a Domme, or Pro-Domme ... I'm just Caitlyn. This site was recommended to me by a friend that thought it might do me some good. My friend was pretty damn smart.

luvdragonx -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/27/2005 1:10:47 PM)
How could you say that Caitlyn? I've read some of your posts and IMO, you represent a sound mind in an 18 year old head :) Proof that young doesn't mean dumb or silly or unrealistic.....you get it. I'm sure you'll get a lot of feedback telling you that there is no such thing as a 'proper submissive' and being Bi is not a prerequisite to being a sub or part of BDSM at all. While you may not identify with any of the categories available at this time, there's no reason to think you have no place here. Just because you don't play the game doesn't mean you can't enjoy the sport. :)

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