RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner

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pollux -> RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner (8/1/2005 7:27:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha I can very easily see how a pro could start to associate the acts in a negative way if day after day she dominates men and finds herself sometimes grossed out, or the man acts so pathetic and stupid that it makes her cringe -- of course she wouldn't want to go home and do that to the man she loves. Without taking anything away from your points, which I'm sure are true for you, I don't think that's quite where she's coming from. She's really responding here more from the sub's perspective. She was replying to a sub's question about "dating" a femdom -- basically the issue of a sub trying to meet all of his needs (vanilla and D/s) in one relationship. Her response was, don't do that. The Domina is there for exploring those dark corners of yourself that it might be dangerous to expose or explore with a lover. Don't try to mix them (lover and Mistress) because, even if your partner is a femdom, she might not want to go into some of those dark corners with you, and it might jeopardize your relationship.

pollux -> RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner (8/1/2005 7:32:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SweetDommes Her opinion is far from being the norm, in my experience, at least. I don't care that she is/was a Pro, although I'm sure that fact influenced her opinion - I, personally, have absolutely no problems spanking/flogging my boy's butt until he begs me to stop ... and then after the scene is over cuddling and snuggling and kissing with him. Personally, I couldn't do BDSM with someone who WASN'T one of my loves/lovers. It just doesn't mean the same to spank/flog/tie up someone who that I am not intimate with ... and I really have no desire to either (except out of random brattiness, which I have been known to do). Let me give you a hypothetical. You're with your lover/partner, exploring various things. Over the course of months or years you've both worked on expanding his limits to a point where you're content with the BDSM side of the relationship. Everything is humming along just swimmingly. But then one day he surprises you. After a particularly intense scene, he tells you his mind is so open that now he needs to have a certain experience. Doesn't matter what -- just imagine something that's maybe beyond what you would ever do. You're a little shocked and taken aback by this -- you never imagined that such a dark corner could have existed inside this person you thought you knew. What do you do?

SweetDommes -> RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner (8/1/2005 8:30:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pollux quote: ORIGINAL: SweetDommes Her opinion is far from being the norm, in my experience, at least. I don't care that she is/was a Pro, although I'm sure that fact influenced her opinion - I, personally, have absolutely no problems spanking/flogging my boy's butt until he begs me to stop ... and then after the scene is over cuddling and snuggling and kissing with him. Personally, I couldn't do BDSM with someone who WASN'T one of my loves/lovers. It just doesn't mean the same to spank/flog/tie up someone who that I am not intimate with ... and I really have no desire to either (except out of random brattiness, which I have been known to do). Let me give you a hypothetical. You're with your lover/partner, exploring various things. Over the course of months or years you've both worked on expanding his limits to a point where you're content with the BDSM side of the relationship. Everything is humming along just swimmingly. But then one day he surprises you. After a particularly intense scene, he tells you his mind is so open that now he needs to have a certain experience. Doesn't matter what -- just imagine something that's maybe beyond what you would ever do. You're a little shocked and taken aback by this -- you never imagined that such a dark corner could have existed inside this person you thought you knew. What do you do? Grin with delight and start getting creative (it's happened already - and I was not shocked or taken aback ... surprised that he was ready, yes, but not in any kind of negative way)

SadisticPrincess -> RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner (8/1/2005 8:55:12 AM)
I would have to give a big HUZZZAH! if I found some unknown dark quantity in my hypothetical sweetie! Imagine the fun----

TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner (8/1/2005 9:49:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pollux A little while later, on the same board, a retired and very famous pro Domme engaged in a fascinating discussion with a guy there on the subject of dating a Domme, and the nature of Female Dominant/male sub relationships. Her point -- and I was very reluctant to see things this way at first, but more and more I'm convinced she's right -- is that BDSM can be kind of a "dark laboratory" for the slow transformation of the soul. The sides of ourselves that we share in BDSM settings are not always pretty, and they are not always sides that can be -- or SHOULD be -- shared with loved ones. But for some of us, they're sides of ourselves that we need to explore and examine consciously if we're going to grow. She was pretty adamant that it is absolutely a MISTAKE for a sub male who wants to have a mutually rewarding, loving relationship with a woman -- to try and explore that side of his personality with her. The example she gave was a man who had an intense desire to experience verbal humiliation. Mind you -- this is a pro Domme, published author, very prominent in the scene, yadda yadda, speaking now -- she said she would be appalled at having to do that to a lover and it would be very distressing for her, and she might not even be able to bring herself to do it. YES!!! This is absolutely what I feel...I think Elle feels much the same thing. I do not want to dominate my partner the way I dominate my slave. I do not want to romance my slave the way I would romance my partner. I don't want to whip the person to whom I bring home flowers. I need both, just in no way from the same person. Yes, yes, yes... Damn, pollux...I really like what you have to say. If you were a bit more service oriented, I'd talk to Elle about inviting you to The Penthouse for a week of training. laughing Taggard

AAkasha -> RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner (8/1/2005 10:24:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pollux quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha I can very easily see how a pro could start to associate the acts in a negative way if day after day she dominates men and finds herself sometimes grossed out, or the man acts so pathetic and stupid that it makes her cringe -- of course she wouldn't want to go home and do that to the man she loves. Without taking anything away from your points, which I'm sure are true for you, I don't think that's quite where she's coming from. She's really responding here more from the sub's perspective. She was replying to a sub's question about "dating" a femdom -- basically the issue of a sub trying to meet all of his needs (vanilla and D/s) in one relationship. Her response was, don't do that. The Domina is there for exploring those dark corners of yourself that it might be dangerous to expose or explore with a lover. Don't try to mix them (lover and Mistress) because, even if your partner is a femdom, she might not want to go into some of those dark corners with you, and it might jeopardize your relationship. Why would a femdom be coerced into doing something for the sub that she not only did not want to do, but she felt that it would possibly damage the relationship? My domination experiences have been about doing the things that turn me on, not having the sub tell me what he wants done. Where there is overlap in our desires, it's extremely intense obviously -- but just as I would not expect him to compromise his limits to please me, he would not compromise my limits by pushing me to do something I found unacceptable. Dominants can have limits too. The key to your post is "she night not want to go..." -- well, are you suggesting he make her? No means no. I don't think I'd ever find myself in a relationship with a sub that could not take no for an answer. If I were in a relationship with a man and he seriously HAD to explore this fetish (whatever it was) that did NOT appeal to me, and in fact could damage my view of him, if the issue with the act was clearly "my hangup" -- I would send him to a Pro to have that done. Most of these limits, though, are made clear up front. Akasha

pollux -> RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner (8/2/2005 7:36:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SadisticPrincess I would have to give a big HUZZZAH! if I found some unknown dark quantity in my hypothetical sweetie! Imagine the fun---- quote: ORIGINAL: SweetDommes Grin with delight and start getting creative (it's happened already - and I was not shocked or taken aback ... surprised that he was ready, yes, but not in any kind of negative way) That's great you both are so open & accepting of your partner/sub/slave. But suppose it was something neither one of you had ever considered or negotiated, and instead of grinning with delight or a big HUZZAH!, your reaction was more like...."Ewwwwwwwwwwww..."? Is there NOTHING that a potential partner could share with you that would make you react that way?

pollux -> RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner (8/2/2005 7:48:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha Why would a femdom be coerced into doing something for the sub that she not only did not want to do, but she felt that it would possibly damage the relationship? I'm not talking about any kind of coercion. I'm talking about the kind of thing that might occur between two people speaking as equals about their needs & desires, specifically about something that hadn't been negotiated or discussed in advance. Something new to the relationship.

AAkasha -> RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner (8/2/2005 9:03:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pollux quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha Why would a femdom be coerced into doing something for the sub that she not only did not want to do, but she felt that it would possibly damage the relationship? I'm not talking about any kind of coercion. I'm talking about the kind of thing that might occur between two people speaking as equals about their needs & desires, specifically about something that hadn't been negotiated or discussed in advance. Something new to the relationship. You didn't address my point about limits. If it is something he brought up in conversation and wanted to do and I was seriously worried that it would affect our relationship, that would be a limit. Submissives can have limits and it doesn't end the relationship, and so can dominants. It's part of the BDSM dynamic. Akasha

SweetDommes -> RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner (8/2/2005 9:04:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pollux quote: ORIGINAL: SadisticPrincess I would have to give a big HUZZZAH! if I found some unknown dark quantity in my hypothetical sweetie! Imagine the fun---- quote: ORIGINAL: SweetDommes Grin with delight and start getting creative (it's happened already - and I was not shocked or taken aback ... surprised that he was ready, yes, but not in any kind of negative way) That's great you both are so open & accepting of your partner/sub/slave. But suppose it was something neither one of you had ever considered or negotiated, and instead of grinning with delight or a big HUZZAH!, your reaction was more like...."Ewwwwwwwwwwww..."? Is there NOTHING that a potential partner could share with you that would make you react that way? We are open and honest about what we find to be "Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwww..." - for me most of them involve body fluids that I have to deal with way too much at work (sometimes, being a nurse sucks). If they wish to try something that I find disgusting, Holly is normally willing to oblige - if she finds it disgusting, I'm willing to try.

SadisticPrincess -> RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner (8/2/2005 9:18:01 AM)
I agree with the SweetDommes here. My hard limit is NO AGE PLAY. I also will not deal with vomit and toilet functions unless the person is ill (caregivers unite!). And of course, loopy stuff that really requires the skill of a surgeon (Oh Mistress, I want you to castrate me like you would a bull.) is an obvious LOL Don't THINK so---and those folks are not the kind that get admitted into my circle of intimacy anyway. This is the kind of thing that is dealt with in negotiation, and in the early stages of a relationship. Are you trying to imply that the person might be interested in some kind of criminal act? Because yes, if the person I was involved with suddenly announced that he was interested in vivisection, or pedophilia, or murder, well, we'd have a problem. It wouldn't be a bdsm related problem, though.

pollux -> RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner (8/2/2005 11:04:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SadisticPrincess Are you trying to imply that the person might be interested in some kind of criminal act? Because yes, if the person I was involved with suddenly announced that he was interested in vivisection, or pedophilia, or murder, well, we'd have a problem. It wouldn't be a bdsm related problem, though. Heavens no. The point I was trying to make initially (before we kind of got off on this path about limits, which is related to it, but not exactly what I was getting at) is that it might not be the wisest thing for all subs to try to establish a relationship with a Domina and ALSO expect her to be a wife/life partner (or vice versa, to try and turn one's wife into a Domme). For some subs, it might be better to have a D/s relationship with a Domina for one's BDSM needs, AND a life partner/wife/hubby for one's vanilla needs. Trying to find it all in the same relationship with the same person can be a dicey thing. That's all.

pollux -> RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner (8/2/2005 11:11:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha You didn't address my point about limits. If it is something he brought up in conversation and wanted to do and I was seriously worried that it would affect our relationship, that would be a limit. Submissives can have limits and it doesn't end the relationship, and so can dominants. It's part of the BDSM dynamic. Akasha I didn't address it because you're right. Of course dominants have limits. We're locked in violent agreement on that. I spoke to Mme. LeVay and got her permission to post the original quote (she was responding to another person on the board, not me, fwiw): quote: ORIGINAL: Angel Stern aka Madame Sterling LeVay There are some things I have seen in the dungeon that I would definitely wish to remain there. We know that those who have these very dark needs and desires, based on self-loathing as you put it, are working it out of their system, by increments, through the years. I wish them all the best and know that they absolutely appreciate the 'dark laboratory' wherein these nightmares become manifest, to perhaps be cauterized... or ultimately destroyed... For some of us the masochistic element does NOT want to be out in the bright light of the bedside lamp, played with in a cozy lover's boudoir, with the one we love best. That part of sexuality isn't pretty, isn't altogether fun, isn't very safe for just anyone to view. Do you disagree with this? Now, just so my own views don't get contaminated or misinterpreted here....I'm not 100% convinced that what she's saying is true for everybody, and applies for all BDSM or D/s relationships. But I think it's a serious point, and one that subs who are trying to establish a single relationship involving wife/life partner/Domina in the same person need to consider.

AAkasha -> RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner (8/2/2005 11:24:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pollux quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha You didn't address my point about limits. If it is something he brought up in conversation and wanted to do and I was seriously worried that it would affect our relationship, that would be a limit. Submissives can have limits and it doesn't end the relationship, and so can dominants. It's part of the BDSM dynamic. Akasha I didn't address it because you're right. Of course dominants have limits. We're locked in violent agreement on that. I spoke to Mme. LeVay and got her permission to post the original quote (she was responding to another person on the board, not me, fwiw): quote: ORIGINAL: Angel Stern aka Madame Sterling LeVay There are some things I have seen in the dungeon that I would definitely wish to remain there. We know that those who have these very dark needs and desires, based on self-loathing as you put it, are working it out of their system, by increments, through the years. I wish them all the best and know that they absolutely appreciate the 'dark laboratory' wherein these nightmares become manifest, to perhaps be cauterized... or ultimately destroyed... For some of us the masochistic element does NOT want to be out in the bright light of the bedside lamp, played with in a cozy lover's boudoir, with the one we love best. That part of sexuality isn't pretty, isn't altogether fun, isn't very safe for just anyone to view. Do you disagree with this? Now, just so my own views don't get contaminated or misinterpreted here....I'm not 100% convinced that what she's saying is true for everybody, and applies for all BDSM or D/s relationships. But I think it's a serious point, and one that subs who are trying to establish a single relationship involving wife/life partner/Domina in the same person need to consider. I think as a pro domme she sees some subs that are emotionally dysfunctional, and the acts they want to do would disgust or freak out most women. So, sure, in those cases it is true -- but these guys are also probably not in functional relationships anyway. You forget about all the other subs though -- the ones that have reasonable fantasies, even the ones that are extreme, and it's perfectly fine for them to engage in them in relationships. But you are completely forgetting about all the lovers that have a completely functional, loving relationship that includes mild to extreme sadomasochism. From the post you brought the point up originally, you said: quote: The sides of ourselves that we share in BDSM settings are not always pretty, and they are not always sides that can be -- or SHOULD be -- shared with loved ones. But for some of us, they're sides of ourselves that we need to explore and examine consciously if we're going to grow. She was pretty adamant that it is absolutely a MISTAKE for a sub male who wants to have a mutually rewarding, loving relationship with a woman -- to try and explore that side of his personality with her. I think this applies to subs that have dysfunctional desires (so dark, so twisted, etc. -- hard limits for a femdom, or illegal, or unsafe) and the inability to function in a loving relationship, sure. But I think that person would have a hard time finding a relationship anyway. But all the rest of the subs? No way. They are perfectly fine seeking both a loving partner and a femdom in the same person. Akasha

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner (8/2/2005 12:10:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pollux The point I was trying to make initially (before we kind of got off on this path about limits, which is related to it, but not exactly what I was getting at) is that it might not be the wisest thing for all subs to try to establish a relationship with a Domina and ALSO expect her to be a wife/life partner (or vice versa, to try and turn one's wife into a Domme). For some subs, it might be better to have a D/s relationship with a Domina for one's BDSM needs, AND a life partner/wife/hubby for one's vanilla needs. Trying to find it all in the same relationship with the same person can be a dicey thing I understand and agree that there may be cases where a sub could have a relationship with a domina, and a relationship with a wife/girlfriend, but unless both women are VERY OPEN/KINKY, and able to deal with that kind of sharing of your soul and sexuality, you'd have a huge problem in your hands. I think Akasha's suggestions are more reasonable as life/ability to find a suitable relationship goes, in that you ought to try to find someone you can care for, respect and be completely open with. As the ladies before me have pointed out, a lot of femdoms are open to most things your dark recesses may have/will enter (just my opinion). M

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner (8/2/2005 12:15:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha I think this applies to subs that have dysfunctional desires (so dark, so twisted, etc. -- hard limits for a femdom, or illegal, or unsafe) and the inability to function in a loving relationship, sure. But I think that person would have a hard time finding a relationship anyway. But all the rest of the subs? No way. They are perfectly fine seeking both a loving partner and a femdom in the same person. Akasha Akasha you sound like you know some of the boys I've dated. [;)] M

SadisticPrincess -> RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner (8/2/2005 12:52:43 PM)
Pollux, elsewhere on this site there are discussions (or have been) about The Married Submissive, and how generally unsatisfactory they are. My question for you is, how can someone who is in a vanilla relationship also serve a dominant female? Is it fair to the spouse/SO or the femdom that the male is dividing his time, energy, etc. between two people who probably do not know each other? There are many very dysfunctional people out there who seek out professional dominants for some very extreme things. As Aakasha pointed out, these are not people who generally have normal relationships. (As a pro, I refuse to see those kinds of clients---bdsm is not therapy in that sense.) Perhaps you are not giving the females enough credit for being understanding of their partners' vulnerabilities?

pollux -> RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner (8/2/2005 7:33:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha .... But all the rest of the subs? No way. They are perfectly fine seeking both a loving partner and a femdom in the same person. There's plenty of room in my world for both your view and Madame LeVay's.

pollux -> RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner (8/2/2005 7:38:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig I think Akasha's suggestions are more reasonable as life/ability to find a suitable relationship goes, in that you ought to try to find someone you can care for, respect and be completely open with. Me too, or I wouldn't have registered here. quote: As the ladies before me have pointed out, a lot of femdoms are open to most things your dark recesses may have/will enter (just my opinion). M If we're talking about me personally -- my dark recesses -- yeah, you're probably right. I just don't know that that's true for everybody.

pollux -> RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner (8/2/2005 7:43:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SadisticPrincess Pollux, elsewhere on this site there are discussions (or have been) about The Married Submissive, and how generally unsatisfactory they are. My question for you is, how can someone who is in a vanilla relationship also serve a dominant female? Is it fair to the spouse/SO or the femdom that the male is dividing his time, energy, etc. between two people who probably do not know each other? There are many very dysfunctional people out there who seek out professional dominants for some very extreme things. As Aakasha pointed out, these are not people who generally have normal relationships. (As a pro, I refuse to see those kinds of clients---bdsm is not therapy in that sense.) Perhaps you are not giving the females enough credit for being understanding of their partners' vulnerabilities? Well, the danger in playing devil's advocate is that people start to think you're the devil, and not just the advocate. Let me answer your questions this way: I think Mme. LeVay has a serious point. I think her advice is valid for some people, if not for others or for everybody. And I think for a sub male who is faced with serious ethical choices about what he does with his submissive "wiring", it's crucially important to consider what she's saying. But, if you want me to defend her views as being valid for all people in all types of BDSM or D/s relationships, all the time, I'm not going to do it, because that isn't a view I agree with.

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