RE: Columbia University is a joke

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farglebargle -> RE: Columbia University is a joke (9/25/2007 5:00:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle ...Irrelevant. This is about how Bush gave up his credibility. No, this is about your being an apologist for Holocaust revisionists, and bringing up Bush's lies as a red herring to obscure your claims that Ahmadinejad isn't one. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4527142.stm http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=6610013 I think Ahmadinejad's OWN WORDS at Columbia yesterday clearly disprove any claims that Ahmadinejad is a "Holocaust Denier" And IIRC, it's really about the demonizing of Iran, to distract from the failure in Iraq.

Alumbrado -> RE: Columbia University is a joke (9/25/2007 5:07:08 PM)
Your selective misreading of his few words while ignoring the rest proves a lot, that's for sure. He is on record as an overt Holocaust revisionist. If you want to buy his tap dance, and be an apologist for his well documented claims that the Holocaust is a myth, that's on you. Just don't expect everybody to be as gullible as that.

farglebargle -> RE: Columbia University is a joke (9/25/2007 5:18:32 PM)
I dunno. He said it's a given that the holocaust happened, but questioned what relevance that had to the treatment of the Palestinians, and suggested that the holocaust, and indeed every historical event should be continually re-examined. Of course, that's what I got from reading the transcript. If all you do is consume the news coverage of the event, and the paid commentators, then I suppose you could think something different was said.

Alumbrado -> RE: Columbia University is a joke (9/25/2007 5:38:17 PM)
Actually, from the transcript linked on the university website , he said: "And my second question, well, given this historical event, if it is a reality, we need to still question whether the Palestinian people should be paying for it or not." He also claimed that there wasn't 'enough research' to support the viewpoint that the Holocaust took place as commonly believed. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/24/AR2007092401042.html But you knew all that when you chose to become an apologist for an avowed Holocuast revisionist. Guess the truth is an incovenience to your agenda too, hmmmm?

farglebargle -> RE: Columbia University is a joke (9/25/2007 5:54:35 PM)
Well, to expand the context: "My question was simple. There are researchers who want to push the topic from a different perspective. Why are they put into prison? Right now there are a number of European academics who have been sent to prison because they attempted to write about the Holocaust, so researchers from a different perspective, questioning certain aspects of it -- my question is, why isn't it open to all forms of research? I have been told that there's been enough research on the topic. And I ask, well, when it comes to topics such as freedom, topics such as democracy, concepts and norms such as God, religion, physics even or chemistry, there's been a lot of research, but we still continue more research on those topics. We encourage it. But then why don't we encourage more research on a historical event that has become the root, the cause of many heavy catastrophes in the region in this time and age? Why shouldn't there be more research about the root causes? That was my first question. And my second question -- well, given this historical event, if it is a reality, we need to still question whether the Palestinian people should be paying for it or not. After all, it happened in Europe. The Palestinian people had no role to play in it. So why is it that the Palestinian people are paying the price of an event they had nothing to do with? The Palestinian people didn't commit any crime. They had no role to play in World War II. They were living with the Jewish communities and the Christian communities in peace at the time. They didn't have any problems. And today, too, Jews, Christians and Muslims live in brotherhood all over the world, in many parts of the world. They don't have any serious problems. But why is it that the Palestinians should pay a price, innocent Palestinians? For 5 million people to remain displaced or refugees of war for 60 years are -- is this not a crime? Is asking about these crimes a crime by itself? Why should an academic, myself, face insults when asking questions like this? Is this what you call freedom and upholding the freedom of thought? Well, given that he goes on for a few paragraphs about the factual events of the holocaust, and it's supposed side-effects, It's quite clear that he is, in absolutely no possible way denying it. Could he perhaps have championed a stupid example of Academic Freedom in the Fringes? I think so. But the overall question is valid. If Germany is fine arresting people for Unauthorized Thought, then who is anyone to question any government which practices some variant of it? Of course, the question remains, does he understand that by trying to justify what we see as the uncivilized aspects of Sharia, does he simply draw attention to an issue in Germany which is unacceptable? So, back to the real issue. Why can't Iran develop a domestic nuclear energy market, and subsequently, after the development is done, an exportable, MARKETABLE nuclear reactor?

meatcleaver -> RE: Columbia University is a joke (9/26/2007 12:03:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver What deals for peace? Israel has never offered a realistic peace deal. Israel could never satisfy your requirements for peace and so to you eternal war is the only answer, which is funny because that's exactly what you're claiming of everyone else. My requirements? I have no requirements, I'm just observing. Israel has never tried for a just peace, justice is usually a requirement for peace. You're refusing to face what is staring you in the face, the poverty of your position. Israel has been annexing Arab land, stealing Arab property and expelling Arabs for decades, it was Israel that started the 1967 war where they occpied the territories at the heart of the conflict. quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver What Israel is doing in its annexation of the occupied lands and in its treatment of the occupied Palestinians is breaking just about every international law and every human rights law on the subject and is openly supported by the USA in breaking international and human rights laws. That how interested the USA is in the rule of international law. Every international organisation has spoken out about Israel flouting international law and committing human rights violations. All Israel is trying to do is stop the rockets and the suicide children that the Palestinians and Hezbollah sends in, mostly aimed at schools, day care centers and hospitals for maximum terroristic effect. No one says anything about the suicide children or the Iranian rockets, it's all on Israel. Well, I call bullshit. quote: Hezbollah is a reaction to Israeli aggression. If Israel hadn't made an aggressive invasion of Lebanon they wouldn't exist. I suppose you would have called Native Americans fighting for their land in the face of white settlers as Indian aggression too. I think I'm beginning to see where your fucked up logic is coming from. It goes to justifying your own position in taking someone elses land. quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Oh. On your idea that muslims have been trying to kill Jews for centuries....Total and utter bullshit. If you said Christians, you would be onto something. No, I said Jews and Infidels. Anyone who got in their way. And I didn't say Muslims, I said Muslim extremists. It's funny how you try to twist my words around. Now you're having a laugh, the Arabs have been a subjugated nation for centuries. Jeez, don't you know a modicum of history? quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver No you haven't. It is the US that is pushing the Iraqi parliament into privatising the oil industry and to give American companies lucrative contracts. Even the British at the height of the empire bought goods from their colonies, the idea is to get lucrative contracts that keep out the competition. The US is getting nervous because of the amount of oil it consumes and it is making enemies of most of the large oil producers and so needs sources it controls. Oh, bullshit. The contracts are practically everywhere EXCEPT to the USA, and the United States isn't pushing for any fucking thing. Don't you ever tire of pushing pure garbage as facts? The USA buys all the oil it needs with cash, just like everyone else. The moment you catch a soldier coming home with his canteen filled with oil be sure to let me know. Okay? Er...US corporations have cleaned up 50 billion in contracts, now you tell me any corporations from any other country that has any significant contracts. The truth is there aren't any. The oil contracts have still to come, the US has to strong arm the Iraqis into privatising the industry but I'd place bets with you as to who gets the contracts. Just look at the other contracts awarded, there is a pattern. quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Iraq has a legitimate claim over Kuwait that has been internationally recognized as a valid claim because Kuwait was originally a part of the province of the Ottoman province that makes up southern Iraq. The British turned Kuwait into a seperate country so a weak state Britain could control would be in control of a large quantity of oil. Do you even hear yourself? You support the rape of Kuwait by a filthy-rich, crazy, evil dictator who keeps his slave people impoverished, broken and miserable. What kind of person are you, anyway. I didn't say I supported it, what I was saying is that American propaganda was just that. The US and the west was concerned about Kuwait because of Kuwaiti oil, not because of the rape of Kuwait. If Kuwait never had oil we all know the Kuwaitis could go and fuck themselves and Iraq could have their stolen province, the US wouldn't have invested in a war of liberation. quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver The Persians have been in Iran for probably more than 4,000 years. In reality things are different. Muslims have only been in Iran (off and on, with a lot of bloodletting) for about 1400 years. Anyone living there now is of course a Persian, but since just killing off the original inhabitants and then settling there makes it your land then Israel belongs to the Israelis. What's the difference... except that the Israelis were given their homeland after they were nearly exterminated by the Aryan Adolf Hitler Now you are exposing your hatred of muslims and once again exposing you ignorance of history. You're talking arrant nonsense again. Britain has only been Christian for 1400 years, you never discuss those vicious Christians. The Arabs didn't kill off indigenous populations as they expanded their culture. By the time the Arabs invaded Spain, 95% of the army were people indigenous to what is now Morocco. The majority of Egyptians are indigenous stock, the dame with all Arab countries. To say all Arab countries are ethnically Arab is like saying all English speaking countries are ethnically English. If Arabs claimed the USA, Canada, Australia, etc. etc. English, I'm sure the people in those countries would disagree strongly. The indigenous people of Iran are still the majority in Iran and have been there for at least 4,000 years, yes there have been additions like some Arabs, Jews, Mongols, Greeks etc. from immigrants and invading nations. Hitler wasn't Aryan, he was an ignorant right wing fool who didn't know his history, I'm sure he would have been shocked to realize he named himself after the Persians. If'm not against the Jews having their own land but why is it that the Palestinians have to pay for western guilt over the holocaust. If you are so concerned why don't you give them part of the USA instead of insisting other people should give up their land for your cause? As Ben Gurion said.... “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” If anyone should have given up land to the Jews it should have been the Germans but the Yalta conference on dividing up Europe, which FDR was one of the two main players was never interested in considering them. To hell with the format, my answers are in blue.

Real0ne -> RE: Columbia University is a joke (9/27/2007 10:10:55 PM)
Bollinger: Frankly and in all candor Mr President I doubt that you will have the intellectual courage to answer these questions but your avoiding them in itself will be meaningful to us. I do expect you to exhibit the fanatical mindset that characterizes so much of what you say and do. Fortunately I am told by experts in your country that this only furhter undermines your position in iran with all the good hearted intelligent citizens there. A year ago I reliably told your preposterous and beligerent statements in their country as at the meeting of the council of foreign relations that so embarrased your sensible iranian citizens that it led to your parties defeat in the december elections, may this do that and more. <applause> I am only a professor...............and today I feel all the weight of the modern civilized world yearning to express the revoltion you stand for. I only wish I could do better. Lets begin at the beginning, Mr president you exibit all the signs of a petty and cruel dictator and so i ask you whay have women and homosexuals become targets...... Mahmoud: In Iran when you invite a guest you respect them it is our custom. ....... Why are the palestian people paying for world war 2 they had nothing to do with world war 2. Why should an academic like myself face insults for asking questions like this, is this what you call freedom? 3 monopolistic powers want to force their word on the iranian people and deny them their rights. I wanted to speak with the press. The september 11 tragic events they led to other events afterwards. after 911 afghanastan was occupied and iraq is occupied and for 6 years in our region there is insecurity and terror and fear. You need to rexamine history. If the root causes of 911 are examined properly; why it was happened; what caused it; what were the conditions that led to it; who truly was involved; who really was involved and put it all together; to understand to prevent a crisis in iraq; fix the problems in iraq and afghanastan combined. (not worth talking about we have all the answers figured out for us) So we showed iranians that we really know how welcome a guest in our country. He is allowed to talk but not travel through america. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7808115407157394479 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4429178030453854833 Arent we the civil ones?

thompsonx -> RE: Columbia University is a joke (9/28/2007 7:26:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 The Minutemen are doing to job Bushh should be doing but isn't and he call's them "vigilantes? What a POS. As for Columbia what do you expect? The kids who go to that "school" are mostly upper middle class and never had to struggle for anything. It is a private school that charges a ton of money to attend... who did you expect to go there??? They've never done anything in their lives.We're talking 18-21 year olds here. Just how many 18 to 20 year olds have done anything in their lives? It appears that you do not feel that going to school is a worthwhile endeavor. Why would the Press even think that the public would care about what those kids "think." perhaps because the graduates of prestigious schools like Columbia go on to become leaders in both the public and private sector. And that goes for a lot of the faculty there too. Must have been a slow newsday. Editor; "Bobby, go down to the corner pub and pick up a cameraman and sound technician before they get too drunk and get me some kind of story, we're dyin' here!" Reporter; "a campus protest maybe?" Editor; "Fine, anything!" "Start a fire I don't care! We need "NEWS!" Slow news day...the war in Iraq and Afghanistan are over? The illegal alien problem has been solved? Hunger and malnutrition in America no longer exists? The fundies have quit bombing abortion clinics? ...well you get my point....

GoddessMine -> RE: Columbia University is a joke (9/28/2007 7:57:33 AM)
Not sure if this was already brought up, as I'm such a busybee Goddess doing important Goddess things during this beautiful Goddess morning, but - was anyone else unsettled by the introductory speech given by Columbia's president Bollinger? How the hell will progressive dialogue and steps towards diplomacy, mutual understanding, and improved foreign policy ever occur when it's preceded by, "petty and cruel dictator"? Love, GM

Alumbrado -> RE: Columbia University is a joke (9/28/2007 8:35:05 AM)
Progressive dialogue on what? Ahmadinejad's claims that the Holocaust was a myth? And what diplomacy or foreign policy does a college dictate? It is pretty standard in a forum to be greeted with ridicule when one show's up promoting crackpot theories. Ahmadinejad was given a chance to face his doubter's in an academic forum, and he took his chances. Pretending that his notions deserved to be met with respect, and a polite 'all ideas are valid' response is all well and good in a social setting, but this wasn't someone's living room. I hope the next petty dictator, and the next lying politician, receive the same 'exposure'.[:D] .

Real0ne -> RE: Columbia University is a joke (9/28/2007 5:02:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Progressive dialogue on what? Ahmadinejad's claims that the Holocaust was a myth? And what diplomacy or foreign policy does a college dictate? It is pretty standard in a forum to be greeted with ridicule when one show's up promoting crackpot theories. Ahmadinejad was given a chance to face his doubter's in an academic forum, and he took his chances. Pretending that his notions deserved to be met with respect, and a polite 'all ideas are valid' response is all well and good in a social setting, but this wasn't someone's living room. I hope the next petty dictator, and the next lying politician, receive the same 'exposure'. . When has bush or clinton been introduced so venomously? I listened to 2 translations of his speeches and did not hear him "deny" the holocaust. I heard him question the numbers. Seems to be alot of that going around now days, including the numbers I came up with were considerably lower than the claimed 6million. But then the WTC was brought down by MASSIVE and INTENSE fires that defy the layws of physics but thats the world today. Really so we should treat bush that way? LOL Hey this whole episode was a disgraceful and morally bankrupt as if we have something to toot our horns about. We are worse.

farglebargle -> RE: Columbia University is a joke (9/28/2007 5:22:28 PM)
What would happen if anyone introduced Bush in a similar manner? OH, RIGHT. Bush is so paranoid of being caught out as a coward, that he doesn't ever emerge from the bubble of control enough to be confronted by someone with an opposing viewpoint. I forgot... Sorry. Ignore the question, it's moot.

InnocentYoungSub -> RE: Columbia University is a joke (9/28/2007 10:23:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 The kids who go to that "school" are mostly upper middle class and never had to struggle for anything. How cute, you can put a word in quotations to make it look like you're clever. And yes, all liberals are little trust fund babies who've never experienced hardship. Thats why I'm practically a socialist and I come from a working class background, couldn't afford to get into college, spent the majority of my childhood in trailor homes and apartments, saw my father go to prison etc. quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 They've never done anything in their lives.We're talking 18-21 year olds here. And so obviously your opinion is right and their's is wrong. [8\|] And tell us, bucko, when was it that you found the cure for cancer?

Owner59 -> RE: Columbia University is a joke (9/28/2007 10:27:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: InnocentYoungSub quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 The kids who go to that "school" are mostly upper middle class and never had to struggle for anything. How cute, you can put a word in quotations to make it look like you're clever. And yes, all liberals are little trust fund babies who've never experienced hardship. Thats why I'm practically a socialist and I come from a working class background, couldn't afford to get into college, spent the majority of my childhood in trailor homes and apartments, saw my father go to prison etc. quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 They've never done anything in their lives.We're talking 18-21 year olds here. And so obviously your opinion is right and their's is wrong. [8\|] And tell us, bucko, when was it that you found the cure for cancer? Go get`m kid,that guy needs a spank`n.[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m26.gif[/image]

InnocentYoungSub -> RE: Columbia University is a joke (9/28/2007 10:35:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Yup, they see the country the way that "they" want to see it and not the way it really is. Sounds like someone else we know! quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Some of these "colleges" are more closed-minded than the Ku Klux Klan or "La Raza." Isn't Columbia the "school" that came out with a "code of speech" a few years ago limiting what their people could and couldn't say? Schools like Columbia and Yale aren't serving their students very well. If I were looking to hire people I'd take a "pass" on graduates from schools like that! They wouldn't be good "team players" with all that radicalism rattling around in their heads. If you haven't noticed there's some damn good reasons to be radical these days. The working man in this country is being sold down the river. I can see it first hand with how me and my dad struggle to get business(we're painters), the market around here is saturated with cheap illegal labor. The rich apparently care more about paying less to get their lawn cut than they do about the working class. I experience their attitudes first hand, I work in their neighborhoods and I am made to feel like a carnival sideshow. You wouldn't believe the attitudes of these people. I pass out circulars for our business and they treat you so suspiciously and with utter contempt. Its not good enough that they're well off and I'm struggling. Its like they're also thinking "how dare you come into our neighborhood and try to make a living, PEASANT!". This country is going downhill. quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 What's next, is Columbia going to hire "Perfessor" Ward "TONTO" Churchill? I'm no PC nut but come on! Tonto? Racist much?

InnocentYoungSub -> RE: Columbia University is a joke (9/28/2007 10:42:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: camille65 Actually I'm disappointed at how he was treated. Yes we all want to smush him under our shoes but.. I think it would have been much worse for him if he had hung himself out to dry without the excuse of being provoked. That just gave him more credence to those that believe him. He would have done it to himself given a few minutes. I agree. We made ourself look like fucking children. I'm ashamed by it. I mean can you believe it- oh wait, this is America we're talking about. We're quite infamous for biting off our own nose to spite our face! Especially after all that business over in Mesopotamia... [8\|]

MasterKalif -> RE: Columbia University is a joke (9/29/2007 11:34:36 AM)
Alumbrado, we all may have biases and may hate a specific regime, but in an international forum respect is th first step to understanding; the idea was to understand Ahmaddinejad not to get a chance to throw "shite" at him. The idea is to set up an intellectual dialogue and come to certain points of understanding and take it from there. I dislike the Ayatollahs tremendously, and if up to me, the Shah would be back in a heartbeat. However the truth of things are different and diplomacy must prevail not personal opinions such as Bollinger. He did that to appease the government and his own pro-Bush agenda I am sure.

InnocentYoungSub -> RE: Columbia University is a joke (9/29/2007 11:45:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterKalif Alumbrado, we all may have biases and may hate a specific regime, but in an international forum respect is th first step to understanding; the idea was to understand Ahmaddinejad not to get a chance to throw "shite" at him. The idea is to set up an intellectual dialogue and come to certain points of understanding and take it from there. I dislike the Ayatollahs tremendously, and if up to me, the Shah would be back in a heartbeat. However the truth of things are different and diplomacy must prevail not personal opinions such as Bollinger. He did that to appease the government and his own pro-Bush agenda I am sure. Um, how about neither the Ayatollahs OR the Shah? Thats how it would have gone if not for our wonderful little band of heroes known as the CIA. Doesn't it seem like we're ALWAYS our own worst enemy?

Alumbrado -> RE: Columbia University is a joke (9/30/2007 10:02:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterKalif Alumbrado, we all may have biases and may hate a specific regime, but in an international forum respect is th first step to understanding; the idea was to understand Ahmaddinejad not to get a chance to throw "shite" at him. The idea is to set up an intellectual dialogue and come to certain points of understanding and take it from there. I dislike the Ayatollahs tremendously, and if up to me, the Shah would be back in a heartbeat. However the truth of things are different and diplomacy must prevail not personal opinions such as Bollinger. He did that to appease the government and his own pro-Bush agenda I am sure. Sorry, that isn't what a forum is, international or otherwise... a forum is an open exchange to weed out the BS from things worth considering, it isn't governed by the artificial rules of a society page tea party or of diplomacy. And in a forum, as elsewhere, respect should be earned, not assumed or demanded. A dialogue is what a telemarketer tries to get suckers to engage in, it has no place in science or discourse. This was not a government or political event, this was someone claiming to have a doctorate, demanding entre to an academic forum at a private school, to put his theories up for scrutiny and critical analysis. And scrutiny and critical analysis lead some people to think that his Holocaust revisionism deserves ridicule...on that topic, you are of course free to follow your own notions. ETA: I personally would rather see a freely elected President back in charge in Iran, but again, YMMV.

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