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ORIGINAL: anthrosub
It really bothers me when Bush refers to terrorists and insurgents as "thugs" or "bullies." It's like he's totally missing the point and makes me wonder if where we're putting our efforts and people's lives at risk isn't somehow misguided by this mindset.

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Religious wisdom suggests that the more overwhelming the military might, the more dangerous its capacity for self- and public deception. If evil in this world is deeply human and very real, and religious people believe it is, it just doesn't make spiritual sense to suggest that the evil all lies "out there" with our adversaries and enemies, and none of it is "in here" with us -- embedded in our own attitudes, behaviors and policies. Powerful nations dangerously claim to "rid the world of evil" but often do enormous harm in their self-appointed vocation.

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ORIGINAL: onceburned

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ORIGINAL: anthrosub
It really bothers me when Bush refers to terrorists and insurgents as "thugs" or "bullies." It's like he's totally missing the point and makes me wonder if where we're putting our efforts and people's lives at risk isn't somehow misguided by this mindset.

Yes, I agree. Bush is guilty of "bad theology" in that he is quick to recognize the evil in others, and to christen our side as the forces of good and of God. Jim Wallis, in his book God's Politics : Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It, explains:

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it just doesn't make spiritual sense to suggest that the evil all lies "out there" with our adversaries and enemies, and none of it is "in here" with us -- embedded in our own attitudes, behaviors and policies. Powerful nations dangerously claim to "rid the world of evil" but often do enormous harm in their self-appointed vocation.

If there is any chance of eliminating terrorism, (and I believe there is) we must get at the root causes of such violence. Opposing them with death is not going to destroy terrorism. Instead we should be promoting ways for them to find opportunities within their lives for meaning.

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ORIGINAL: anthrosub

There's a quote in particular that rings true to me...

"...faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for the lost faith in ourselves."

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ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig
I agree and wonder how you got to be inside of my head

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to think same things and articulate so much better than I.

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Fighting with people who live in such misery that they have nothing to lose by dying is a losing battle to take on, has cost and will cost us more than we ever bargained for unfortunately.

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ORIGINAL: NYsubforbbw
4. To those who say it is not our moral right to forcibly reform these societies, while in the abstract your view is ethically solid, we should remember that in the age of possible nuclear terrorism by privateering zealots, the costs of being ethically pure may be rather higher than in the past.
Just trying to balance the picture. I'm not saying the anti-Bushites among you are all wrong, but there is another side to it.

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1. It will take many years before economic development, political accomodations, and education can change the alienation and fanaticism of many Arab youth - I wonder if we could have a "volunteer list" of understanding people in the West who will agree to be the bombing and beheading victims of these misunderstood youths.

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I think you assume we do not see there is another side; the other side is being played out as we sit here thinking about it and thousands-millions of people die to prove they are right

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If the USA turns out to be wrong in its policy on Iraq, I think it will be a Vietnam-style mistake i.e. having good intentions, but taking on a harder task that we are capable of. I have not come to the apparent cynicism you have about the motives of the USA - after all, the invasion was also supported by non-rightwing, non-fundamentalist people (Colin Powell, Tony Blair, most of the Democratic senators at the time).

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ORIGINAL: NYsubforbbw
But I think you are saying that we should only use economic and political means and never use military means to defend ourselves and build a world order that better preserves our values. I say it has to be both.

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1. It will take many years before economic development, political accomodations, and education can change the alienation and fanaticism of many Arab youth

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2. There does exist a version of Islam that aims at world conquest and defeat of the liberal corrupt societies of the West.

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3. If you accept the second prong of what FDR said, that there is no justice without order, the current attempt to establish a democratic, tolerant, and moderate Iraq should not be dismissed. It may fail, and there are som real questions about how we got in there, but the USA should not be regarded as attempting anything less than a noble experiment.

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4. To those who say it is not our moral right to forcibly reform these societies, while in the abstract your view is ethically solid, we should remember that in the age of possible nuclear terrorism by privateering zealots, the costs of being ethically pure may be rather higher than in the past.

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ORIGINAL: imtempting
I have not read the article or most of the posts but is this just another religious thread?

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ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

Not forming a volunteer list, but apparently you are suggesting that bombing them and killing their parents, brothers and sisters will make them much nicer and make them understand they must stop these learnings at once, or we'll do what? How many generations would you propose we carry the killings for?

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ORIGINAL: pantera
I think we are hunting down and killing terrorist, and yes...that is exactly what we should be doing- at the same time we are bringing freedom and dignity to the lives of millions- and I give us credit for that- We are also opening their eyes to a better futre and way of life-

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]Plus: the terrorist masterminds are not these "poor people with nothing to lose giving their lives for a cause" They have power, money, and they are not giving their lives for anything...they are sending brainwashed, short-sighted, stupid kids to do it

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ORIGINAL: pantera
at the same time we are bringing freedom and dignity to the lives of millions- and I give us credit for that- We are also opening their eyes to a better futre and way of life-

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Indeed, the State Department's most recent Iraq Weekly Status Report shows progress is uneven. Education is a positive; official figures show 3,056 schools have been rehabilitated and millions of "student kits" have been distributed to primary and secondary schools. School enrollments are increasing. And there are also 145 new primary healthcare centers currently under construction. The official figures show 78 water treatment projects underway, nearly half of them completed, and water utility operators are regularly trained in two-week courses.

On the negative side, however, State Department figures show overall electricity production is barely above pre-war levels. Iraqis still have power only 12 hours daily on average.

Iraqis are almost universally unhappy about that. Fully 96 percent of urban Iraqis said they were dissatisfied when asked about "the availability of electricity in your neighborhood." That poll was conducted in February for the U.S. military, and results are reported in Brookings' "Iraq Index." The same poll also showed that 20 percent of Iraqi city-dwellers still report being without water to their homes.