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mnottertail -> RE: A new thorn in our lives (7/27/2005 6:46:38 AM)
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ORIGINAL: Pavel
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What has always bothered me is the number of anti-war types that I run into that claim an intellectual high ground, when they're simply parroting the words of someone else.
"and we will see who's words you parrot". Who's words do I parrot?
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I get rather sick of being told that Farenheit 911 will "open my eyes" and the like.
Read "The Ugly American" the reason will become evident later if you watch for it.
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There's almost this belief that if it challenges the mainstream, or even worse supports the mainstream for a different view (come off it, the left is just as sheepish as the right), then it must be right.
John Brown was a terrorist, not mainstream. But ultimately right, who disagrees?
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I think the anti-war movement is crippled by the older generations who view this as Vietnam Mk-2 (this War not takeing place during a youth revolution, civil rights movement, and draft makes it rather hard to re-do the Vietnam trick),
That ain't what makes it like vietnam by a damn site.
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or by the fact that many on the left just don't seem in touch with the rest of the country.
See John Brown comment above. The sheepish are always mainstream.
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What brought Vietnam to an end was the average red state voter realizing it wasn't going to work, and expressing it. The protests this time around have mostly been by and for the left. Preaching to the choir.
More by LBJ admitting it wasn't winnable............"Accordingly, I shall not seek........."
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Also as an amuseing tangent, I was singularly unimpressed back when I was Navy/Marines rather than Army, back in March 2003. My unit was comeing back in from exercises in the field. As we passed through campus there was a small protest against the war. As we passed by with our rubber M16s, and cadences about eating babies they all proceeded to bug out on their mountain boards and expensive bikes. I watched the same protestors get dispersed by a brief rain shower some weeks later. I would have to claim the 60's hippies were built of sterner stuff.
We are a service oriented economy now, so long as this can stay in the PlayStation2 realm, we are all set.
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Vietnam is not Iraq. There are lessons to take from Vietnam to apply to Iraq, but to simply say "we're fighting an insurgency over a period of time, thus they're the same!" is just stupid.
How so? it is exactly the same, an uninvited, unwarranted and uncouth intevention into another country's internal affair.
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I would claim that Vietnam was winnable, but not when the US got involved (maybe if we'd just let them go independant rather than propping up French attempts at keeping an empire, there'd be a whole lot less dead people all around).
The Ugly American: French Indochina was unwinnable some 24+ years before american policy (concieved by the red states types) decided that the french (who havent won anything, just didn't know how to get these gooks in line, and by god, we did.
But yeah, novel concept...they wanted independance at took it. What was that to us?
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I would also claim Iraq is winnable.
What is to win? The fact that we invaded a country on false pretenses and if we keep at it long enough that everyone forgets we are once again an aggressor? You think we are gonna stabilize the middle east by intervention? Jesus H. Christ man, read a 1st grade history book.
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The problem is we're fighting brushfire wars. There's no capitals to take, no lines to break, just dumb bastards with bombs and AKs that need killing. The war won't be won in stunning blows, but rather in degrees.
WE ARE WINNING THE WAR OF ATTRITION!!!!!!!!!!!! (who said that?) (hint: in the VietNam era)
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As more Iraqi security forces come online, and more things are restored to the Iraqi people, the insurgency will have less of a leg to stand on. There will be continued violence and anti-Americanism, but that's the nature of the beast, we just have to help the Iraqis forge a state that can withstand that.
Do you suppose that Saddam had power because the security forces were not up to snuff?
How about we get out now and let them run their country as they have for lo, these thousands of years. So there will be internal strife, WTF! We can't run our own country and have no business dictating policy to the world.
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In Vietnam, a good number of the populace was in favor of the Viet Cong, at least intially (judging by the exodus after the war, I'd say some people changed their minds). I would be willing to claim that a vast majority of Iraqis oppose the goals of the insurgents (which range from Saddam comeing back, to a full on Taliban style state, to whatever bull plop a bunch of thugs could come up with). I believe we have a duty to deny the insurgents victory, and allow the Iraqis a time to build their own future.
You have polled this then? How do you account for Iran? Insurgents and terrorists are two entirely different entities here.
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I also believe that it's imperitive to stay commited to this war until it's reached a conclusion. The reaccuring theme of US troop deployments in the past has been once a goodly loss of life occurs, we flee tail between our legs (Beruit, Somlia and the like being examples).
Other places we should never have ran our bigass into anyway. They were not at war with us. By this reckoning, the American Revolution (1776 one now) should have been squashed by the world. Furthermore what would constitute a conclusion?
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This has sent a clear message to the terrorists of the world, that if they can manage to kill enough US service people, they'll win.
I am gonna come to your house and kick your ass and boss you around, maybe kill your son or some relatives, might even lob a few bombs at or near your house, cause it is in 'American' interests. How many of the insurgents are pissed off simply because you invaded their native land? Was Polish resistance wrong to oppose Hitler, just because they couldn't win? And terrorists are not spending a great deal of time killing US service people...That's the trouble, you argue a buy the assumption buy the deal (which may work in sexual situations but not this venue)
THERE IS NO FUCKING LINK HERE!
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The goal simply becomes killing enough people in a visable enough way as to cause a withdrawl. Bin Ladin himself has stated this as a weakness (our cowardice) to be exploited.
Bin Laden is a horse of differnt color, a worldwide terrorist (NOT INSURGENT) now-- he is responsible for agression, he should be squashed and wiped up with donut napkins.
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As to why we went into Iraq in the first place, US intelligence wasn't the only group believeing there were weapons of mass destruction. Russian, German, and French Intelligence agencies all came to the same conclusion that Saddam still possesed some kind of WMD program at the time of the invasion.
Where is the evidence of this? Saddam playing cat-and-mouse about this WMD question to keep Iran on edge? (everyone and their brother in the intelligensia knew that) Because he was trying to defend against a TALIBAN or Fanatical fundamentalist government?
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This might be credited to Saddam's attempts to decieve his own people. He attempted to maintain a balance of terror, that any rebellion would be dealt with chemical attacks, such as the kind visited on the Kurds.
First sentence is see above, fool his own people? I am coming pretty close to asking who is fucking stupid here.
The Kurdish question is far older than Saddam. Turks, Iranians, Iraquis and more have had at them. All they want is their own country....they have been very patient there and extremely stable (with no intervention from us, who in our infinite and righteous governmental and benevolent wisdom will and have fuck them over some more).
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By acting like he still had these weapons, while still showing the UN the picture of a WMD clean state, he gave the perception of being armed, and hideing said arms.
For aforementioned reasons. How would you act knowing you have nuclear capability to your left, and demonstrated will to use it?
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I'm not excuseing the fact that there were no WMDs, I'm just saying it wasn't like a bolt from the blue to some mentally handicapped redneck in the basement of the CIA. These were smart educated people comeing to what was a logical conclusion shared by other people doing the same job globally.
Once again, no evidence of that. Do not confuse a college degree because your family's shit don't stink with the impossibility of their being
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some mentally handicapped redneck in the basement of the CIA.
There are no american interests in the area. We deposed a dictator, ok good enough. They have a fragile government but will survive without our babysitting them. Get out!
Ron
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