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RE: Ethical Sadism - 9/30/2007 9:38:42 AM

mistoferin

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KoM, you are one of the people on these boards who I always enjoy when you talk about this topic. I believe that while you may indeed refer to it differently, you are talking about the same thing as others describe. Maybe when they refer to it as a "beast" they do so because in those moments, the thought and knowledge of what they COULD do or where they COULD go is so far outside of the ethics and principles that they believe in, practice and uphold that indeed it appears that it could be nothing less than an evil, breathing salivating entity in it's own right.

The bottom line though, no matter what you personally choose to call it, is what you said right here. It is the difference between the Ethical Sadist and those who cross the line into the unethical.

quote:

If I wish to continue to enjoy the pleasures that these relationships bring me, I need to continue to be the person that earned these specific relationships in the first place.

Thank you for your input, once again I have enjoyed it.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 21

RE: Ethical Sadism - 9/30/2007 12:13:13 PM

Arpig

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Like DV my sadism is focused on causing pain to somebody who is getting as much pleasure out of it (if not more) as I am. I dislike the idea of referring to my sadism as some sort of "beast" that has to be reigned in and controlled. It isn't an alternate entity that I have to struggle to contain, it is merely an aspect of myself, just as I like sappy movies, long dry non-fiction history books, and very spicey food. It takes no more self control to master than does my desire for vindaloo. I am an ethical sadist simply because I am an ethical person who happens to be a sadist, and I really don't think there is more to it than that.

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(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 22

RE: Ethical Sadism - 9/30/2007 1:24:41 PM

Tigrita

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KoM, great post (and great thread erin). I think, like Erin said, you are talking about the same thing as the other "ethical sadists" are, in describing their "beast" and how they recognize the responsibility to keep it chained to some degree. I think a difference in how you see it and express it is because you're defining the beast as an intrinsically bad thing, vs. your inner self that you are at peace with. I think people can be at peace with their beast, that, as you say, it is a part of them, not something to be ashamed of. But it does have destructive potential if it weren't tempered by moral, ethical parts of yourself too. So, I do think everyone is on the same page.

In coming to terms with being a masochist, one of the hardest things for me was to understand sadism. I didn't feel wrong for enjoying pain and humiliation, because I understood my motivations, and I know myself well enough to know that they are not mentally destructive to me. But what scared me was questioning the motivations of a person who would inflict that on someone else, and that made me question myself and why I'd seek out someone who could enjoy hurting someone they respected. I've come to peace with this after reading from and meeting some very high quality ethical sadists, and now I embrace the intensity, intimacy, and beauty that can come from the connection between an ethical sadist and an emotionally secure masochist and am in a beautiful relationship that explores that.

_____________________________

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There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 23

RE: Ethical Sadism - 9/30/2007 3:19:20 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

KoM, you are one of the people on these boards who I always enjoy when you talk about this topic. I believe that while you may indeed refer to it differently, you are talking about the same thing as others describe. Maybe when they refer to it as a "beast" they do so because in those moments, the thought and knowledge of what they COULD do or where they COULD go is so far outside of the ethics and principles that they believe in, practice and uphold that indeed it appears that it could be nothing less than an evil, breathing salivating entity in it's own right.

The bottom line though, no matter what you personally choose to call it, is what you said right here. It is the difference between the Ethical Sadist and those who cross the line into the unethical.

quote:

If I wish to continue to enjoy the pleasures that these relationships bring me, I need to continue to be the person that earned these specific relationships in the first place.

Thank you for your input, once again I have enjoyed it.

Thank you and Your Welcome.

I do believe that in some cases.. the issue is a semantical debate. However, on some occassions it is not. There is indeed some that divide this beast from the person they are. In these situations... it is not a semantical debate... but one of approach that is very different. I don't understand this division or dissassociation that many seem to do. It does seem that many in the early stages of their awareness of their sadistic tendencies struggle in reconciling this aspect with themself. Some never are truly able to incorporate this part of themselves and truly see this part as distinct and seperate... "The beast". Others in the early stages go beyond this. They indeed reconcile this aspect of themself and actually embrace it as apart of who they are. Control this part of themselves is not any more difficult than controling themselves from have sex with their partner in middle of grand central station.

I can appreciate that for individuals like yourself it is difficult to comprehend how such individuals as myself find it rather easy to control this aspect of myself. Just as I find it difficult to comprehend why you would subject and endure the sadistic pleasure that I would do to you. We don't walk in each other's shoes... but we do admire the power that it takes to be in those shoes... even thou we ourselves find it no great difficulty to be in these shoes in the first place. The power of the river is incredible... but when we follow with the current, we barely feel it's power. Attempt to go against the current... and then you will feel the incredible effort need to over come such power. When Sadist and Masocist come together... it's like to rivers joining. Each with their own power... but the two together create a power that is beyond their own individuality.

I expressed an opinion of the Dance of SM a while back in the following quote

quote:

.... But, it is the realization of Personal Empowerment that occurs that has allowed me to move beyond the popular Power Exchange label to a Power Enhancement Play. I don't see the play as an exchange. We both exert effort and contribute to a create an energy in the play from our own individual power or energy. It is our individual energy expended that makes us feel consumed or drained from the play. But, it this melding of individual power that we feed from and makes us feel Empowered and Enhanced from the scene. In fact, I think both Top and bottom... or more specifically Sadist and Masochist both feed off the energy that they create together. Even those not directly in the play can contribute to this energy and even feed from it.

To me, with regards to SM play.. it is not a A+B.... it is a A*B... our individual power multiples together.. and creates a power dynamic that is greater that a simple adding of it together. This multiplication is why we can feed off it... and still their much left over. It is why we can feel both drained and incredible empowered and enhanced....

just a few more of my thougths on the subject.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 24

RE: Ethical Sadism - 9/30/2007 3:39:22 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

I think a difference in how you see it and express it is because you're defining the beast as an intrinsically bad thing, vs. your inner self that you are at peace with.

mmmmm me thinks you misread what I have said.. or I haven't been clear.

I don't see the beast as an intrinsically bad.. or even a good thing. I don't see a beast.. I see me! The beast label is irrelevant. I am a Sadist... being a Sadist means I can gain pleasure in the causing of pain... nothing more and nothing less.

However, I do see many that use the term Beast.. and they seek to chain it and control it... they often make great drama about how not controlling it would be bad etc etc etc. As I said before.. this is more drama for the sake of inflating ego than it is anything else. Fact of the matter... I am required to control my choice in all aspects of who I am... be it my sadistic pleasure or otherwise. to quote myself

quote:

If I wish to continue to enjoy the pleasures that these relationships bring me, I need to continue to be the person that earned these specific relationships in the first place.

to state it another way

If I wish to continue to enjoy what I enjoy.. I need to continue to make appropriate choices that allowed me to enjoy them in the first place. If I want to maintain my job.. well... I better not tell the boss to go fuck himself. If I want to maintain my play partners.. I better not harm them. There is no special chain to for a Sadist to control is urges than their is any other urges that are self-destructive. Fact is.. individuals all over the map will make destructive choices in their activites.. be it sadomasocist activities or otherwise. But... people all over the map make all sorts of constructive choices in their activities. A person's ethics just happen to be an important consideration with our choices that can be constructive or destructive to ourselves and those around us. I personally enjoy individuals that can and do make constructive choices the norm and don't need to overly dramatize what it takes to make these constructive choices in the first place.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Tigrita)

Post #: 25

RE: Ethical Sadism - 9/30/2007 4:00:16 PM

DocRudy

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I think the drama lies more in how "difficult" some people make it seem to keep that inner part of you at bay. Like it's some monumental battle taking place on a daily basis.

But whether it is or isn't difficult for a particular person, I don't think is the issue. The issue is that there IS an inner part of every sadist that we either allow to act or keep a bit more private.

For sadists this inner part of us may be just a bit more dramatic in its nature though.

Average Joe's inner self is a solitaire nut. Oooooh, aaaaah, anything but that!
Sadist John's inner self, however, is that he likes to inflict pain on people.

John's probably gonna raise more eyebrows among the public than Joe will.

-DR

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 26

RE: Ethical Sadism - 9/30/2007 4:33:32 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Maybe when they refer to it as a "beast" they do so because in those moments, the thought and knowledge of what they COULD do or where they COULD go is so far outside of the ethics and principles that they believe in, practice and uphold that indeed it appears that it could be nothing less than an evil, breathing salivating entity in it's own right.

Or perhaps it's just like the cut that would heal if one just stopped picking at it: because they worry about these things, trying to distance themselves from what they could, might, want to, or will do. Distancing yourself from part of yourself can tend to give it an identity of its own, albeit one that is internal to your own mind. Few go so far as to be dissociating themselves from it, although I imagine that could be possible, as well.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 27

RE: Ethical Sadism - 9/30/2007 5:01:49 PM

Tigrita

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Thanks for the insights KoM. I think I do understand what you are saying (though how can anyone ever be sure of that lol), and I think it is I who haven't been so clear. I just identify sadistic tendencies as something beastial, something primal. Neither good nor bad, a part of the nature of certain people. I suppose I'm just using the word beast rather than sadist, maybe just because it sounds more romantic... maybe also because it is a little broader in scope. I do agree with the things you've said, and they represent the type of SM relationship I've sought out and found. Thanks for being an ethical, and eloquent, sadist!

_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 28

RE: Ethical Sadism - 9/30/2007 6:56:30 PM

Kalista07

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Mistoferin,
Thank You so much for starting this thread. i must admit i was a bit more than shocked and dismayed at some people's beliefs on the other thread. Up until two and a half months ago, my response to this topic would have been (at best) much different. Fortunately for me, however, things in my life have changed so dramatically... A while ago i became involved with a self proclaimed sadist. About a month or a month and a half into this relationship, i began questioning his identification with sadism.. Because the truth is He's never been anything less than encouraging, nurturing, supportive, and probably one of the best human beings i've ever met. So, i asked Him about this. And He explained to me that anyone can beat a woman, can tie up a woman, can cause her to cry, etc. however when You are with someone who thinks this is the best they can get are they really consensually submitting? And then He went on to explain to me, that it's pretty much of no value to Him to have a woman serve Him who's submitting out of lack of belief about them getting or deserving any better. Which, He also went on to explain to me was why nothing M/s or D/s would occur with us until i realized what a wonderful and strong person i am...
i have no idea if i'm even communicating clearly tonight. i apologize if i've been unclear...
Kalista.

_____________________________

“Love me when I least deserve it, because that's when I really need it.”
~~Sweedish Proverb

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 29

RE: Ethical Sadism - 9/30/2007 7:44:19 PM

mistoferin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
I expressed an opinion of the Dance of SM a while back in the following quote

quote:

.... But, it is the realization of Personal Empowerment that occurs that has allowed me to move beyond the popular Power Exchange label to a Power Enhancement Play. I don't see the play as an exchange. We both exert effort and contribute to a create an energy in the play from our own individual power or energy. It is our individual energy expended that makes us feel consumed or drained from the play. But, it this melding of individual power that we feed from and makes us feel Empowered and Enhanced from the scene. In fact, I think both Top and bottom... or more specifically Sadist and Masochist both feed off the energy that they create together. Even those not directly in the play can contribute to this energy and even feed from it.

To me, with regards to SM play.. it is not a A+B.... it is a A*B... our individual power multiples together.. and creates a power dynamic that is greater that a simple adding of it together. This multiplication is why we can feed off it... and still their much left over. It is why we can feel both drained and incredible empowered and enhanced....

just a few more of my thougths on the subject.

I remember the post well, as a matter of fact, it may surprise you but I have a file saved of that post and some others that you have made on the topic of sadism. I like to reference back to them when I am trying to resolve or understand something. As I said, I always enjoy it when you speak on this subject because the way you explain things generally has a way of resonating within me. One of my all time favorite threads (and also one of my favorite exchanges with you) is the thread from which your quote came:
http://www.collarchat.com/m_487582/mpage_1/key_sadism/tm.htm

Thank you for your thoughts....and please feel free to keep them coming.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 30

RE: Ethical Sadism - 9/30/2007 8:47:50 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I remember the post well, as a matter of fact, it may surprise you but I have a file saved of that post and some others that you have made on the topic of sadism. I like to reference back to them when I am trying to resolve or understand something. As I said, I always enjoy it when you speak on this subject because the way you explain things generally has a way of resonating within me. One of my all time favorite threads (and also one of my favorite exchanges with you) is the thread from which your quote came:
http://www.collarchat.com/m_487582/mpage_1/key_sadism/tm.htm

Thank you for your thoughts....and please feel free to keep them coming.

yes... actually I am surprized... and I am not exactly sure why. But either way... I hope the references have been helpful in some small way and if they are insufficient send a complaint to the writer and ask for more data *w*.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 31

RE: Ethical Sadism - 9/30/2007 9:04:32 PM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I do believe that in some cases.. the issue is a semantical debate. However, on some occassions it is not. There is indeed some that divide this beast from the person they are. In these situations... it is not a semantical debate... but one of approach that is very different. I don't understand this division or dissassociation that many seem to do. It does seem that many in the early stages of their awareness of their sadistic tendencies struggle in reconciling this aspect with themself. Some never are truly able to incorporate this part of themselves and truly see this part as distinct and seperate... "The beast". Others in the early stages go beyond this. They indeed reconcile this aspect of themself and actually embrace it as apart of who they are. Control this part of themselves is not any more difficult than controling themselves from have sex with their partner in middle of grand central station.
.

I can relate to a lot of this being in the early stages of discovering and exploring my own sadism. I wasnt concious of any of this a year ago and more aware now than I was a few months ago. When the oppurtunies to play with the girls I know presents itself, its quite amazing and somewhat discerting what I find out about myself. Things I am capable and able to do that I didnt think I would ever do and enjoyment in things I would never have thought I would find enjoyment in.

I agree thats its semantical because the "Beast" is merely a metaphor for what you describe in your posts. A part of myself.

I also agree thats not really so much an issue of control. For me, mostly its a moral issue.

I was raised with strong Catholic influences and because of this, my sense of a moral compass comes from this. I often think in terms of Sin.

Its not logical or rational or a matter of religous belief. Its just something I struggle with from time to time because the desire to hurt and the enjoyment of suffering are very much opposed to the notions of "good and evil" that I have been taught. Its the pinnacle of "Sin", the nature of Lucifer himself, the embodiment of the Morning Star. To me, in my mind and the way I think, these things are just bad.

That might sound silly or overdramatic to some of you, but hey...its just honestly how I think at times and my own internal struggle with it. I think this is the prime reason I distanced myself away from being a Top for awhile.

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(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 32

RE: Ethical Sadism - 9/30/2007 9:38:59 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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One of the few fantasies which bothered me growing up were the ones which came out of nowhere and had me torturing my school tormentors- and we're talking an 11 yo girl imagining chaining up and flailing away with a morning star at her attackers. That freaked me out a lot more than my rape fantasies I think because I really had NO connection to pleasure in life and NO idea where those ideas came from.

So while I would upset myself with 'Why do I want to be raped?" questions, the sadistic fantasies were firmly locked tight away and denied for quite a very long time.

Now, it's nice to meet up with sadists- the ones who really want to feed, who need it. Not just the smile of a blissed out bondage babe, or a cracking whip- but just the fucking carnage of desecration.

On the other hand, my 8th grade social studies class voted unanimously during our "communism project" that our most severe punishment would not only be murder, but upside down hanging with barbed wire. This idea was specially appealing once the teacher informed us the person would die likely of suffocation. So maybe most kids are just sick fucks in their own world and we get it slowly drained out of us in some way as we age.

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Post #: 33

RE: Ethical Sadism - 9/30/2007 9:53:08 PM

Aswad

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I get what you say about thinking in terms of sin, MadRabbit, although I was never a fan of the concept of sins.
That's in the past for me, though, as I expect it will come to be for you as well.

Minor aside, the Lightbringer is a character that bears further inspection in dispelling some of the notions you appear to reject on an intellectual level but struggle with at a deeper level; an ambiguous figure, really, possibly a saviour through redemption, bringing light to this world by example. In any case, "the devil" would be Sammael, if memory serves, not the Lightbringer. When you find such a problem, my advice, for whatever it's worth, would be to go back to the source, bringing along what you know and have experienced, and read it anew in light of those things. You may find an entirely different message, as I did.

We now return to the regularly scheduled programme...

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 34

RE: Ethical Sadism - 9/30/2007 9:54:47 PM

Aswad

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You may be on to something, LA.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 35

RE: Ethical Sadism - 10/1/2007 7:13:25 AM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

There should be a book written The Ethical Sadist just like the book The Ethical Slut. What i found ridiculous about that other thread was the fact that as long as you used different terms like "pain play" or for masochists "pain slut" everything was ok. If you enjoy pain play you are either a sadist or a masochist. You cannot hide from what you are by sticking a different label on yourself that you think makes you look more acceptable, nor should you want to.

You know, I posted this and then I had to go to work. While I was there tonight, I thought a few times about this topic. You said exactly what I was thinking...there ought to be a book. The Ethical Sadist. I think that it would help a lot of people come to terms with their sadisitic tendencies. Especially early in their journey, I think many of them are conflicted by guilt from social conditioning.

I also agree, you are what you are and a softer or more acceptable label won't change that.

I know that I was. I was 15 years into my practice wherein "harming NO one" meant just that...you did not harm people. I grew up in a family where a woman was always treated as a lady...not exactly like a fragile package but not exactly like a tackling dummy either. Society during the late 60's and through-out the 70's was filled with the "guilt-inducers"---those that did their level best to make you feel guilty for even daring to be a male, let alone all YOU had done to abuse women, hold them back, rape them, assault them, insult them, degrade them. A great majority of the women were busy telling us that we needed to get in touch with our emotions (only the good ones, of course) and learn how to express them. Of course, the fact that they wound up with a bunch of wimpy men and wimpy boys and a new generation of girls who wanted men who weren't such emotional wimps was an end result is a topic for another thread.
Suffice it to say that the idea of letting that beast out...the one who wanted to hurt women, the one who wanted to savor the pleasure of a scream over the crack of a belt on a soft ass and delight in the visual pleasure of watching the stricken flesh turn red, the one who wanted to sate his thirst on the tears streaming down a woman's face...was incomprehensible, almost horrifying in the prospect of its existence.
But learning that there were women who yearned to be at the mercy of just such a beast was a first, substantial step in letting that beast out. But it took a lot of reassurance and a lot of fruitless searching to find some well-written crumbs that began to assuage the guilt brought on by societal and religious and cultural conditioning.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 36

RE: Ethical Sadism - 10/1/2007 7:20:31 AM

RRafe

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I have as much to lose as the bottom. If not more.

That's my ethical solution.

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Post #: 37

RE: Ethical Sadism - 10/1/2007 7:31:00 AM

DocRudy

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Well said CD. And while not everyone grew up during that time period, all sorts of people grew up in a "traditional" household. Definitions of which will differ, of course, but I think most will agree that it boils down to a man being the head of the household, yet the women are to be highly respected and cared for. As you said, not quite fragile packages, but certainly not to be beaten, chained and whipped.

These type of conditions no doubt brings about a tendency to create (if even in one's own mind) the persona of this "beast" everyone mentions. Not an entirely disassociated personality (for most people), but merely a vizualization for some actions which you can only indulge in while in private.

Semantics indeed IMO.

-DR

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 38

RE: Ethical Sadism - 10/1/2007 7:35:56 AM

LordVelvet

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mist,
I posted the Webster's definition on the other thread. The purpose was to show how "others" define it. I view Myself as a Sadist. I was asked recently, if you hurt Me, I mean really hurt Me, would you still enjoy in. My answer was, since you wouldn't tell Me until after the fact, then yes I would. I think that most people who are Sadists walk a very fine line. If the can't control "the beast", as others have used, then they show be very cautious about things. I agree with Knights of Mist, though, as I am what I am, which blurs that line even a little more for Me. Just My opinion.
LordVelvet

(in reply to RRafe)

Post #: 39

RE: Ethical Sadism - 10/1/2007 5:33:32 PM

mistoferin

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CD, just to let you know, you're not alone in that boat. As a female from that same time frame, I can tell you that all of that guilt, social conditioning and Catholic brainwashing had it's impact on the women too. I can't begin to relate how much flak I have taken over time from my own peers because I couldn't relate to all of that bra burning and ball busting. Not to mention, the mental image of my Father, in his tough Brooklyn accident, over and over, "If I find out that any man hits you, I'll break his face".

Yes, those outside influences are hard to sort through. Eventually the voice inside of me just kind of drown them out.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 40

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