What if we had helped the Mujahideen in Afghanistan?

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What if we had helped the Mujahideen in Afghanistan? - 9/29/2007 1:25:14 PM

lazarus1983

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So for those that may or may not know, in the 80s the Soviet Union was fighting rebel Mujahideen (sp?) fighters in Afghanistan. The CIA was funneling equipment to the Mujahideen through Pakistan.

The guerilla war against the Soviet Union (death by a thousand cuts) was successful, and the Afghani rebels had pushed the Russians all the way into Kabul, and were poised to take the capitol and re-take their country. However at that point, all outside aid and support for the Mujahideen dried up.

Unfortunately, we weren't so much interested in helping liberate Afghanistan as we were interested in getting back at the Soviet Union for supplying arms to the North Vietnamese during the Vietnam Conflict.

Sure enough, the Soviet Union left, but the country quickly dissolved back into tribes fighting tribes, with no clear victory declared against the Soviets.

So my question is, do you think that if we had continued aiding the Mujahideen, and not just taken our ball home with us, would the situation in the Middle East be different now?

I believe so, because Afghanistan could have become a fairly stable country, and perhaps not exactly an ally with the US, but at the very least not an enemy or willing to hide our enemies.

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RE: What if we had helped the Mujahideen in Afghanistan? - 9/29/2007 1:26:41 PM

InnocentYoungSub

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I thought the Mujahideen got into power anyhow, in the form of the Taliban?

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RE: What if we had helped the Mujahideen in Afghanistan? - 9/29/2007 1:28:26 PM

Mstry

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Would you want to offer them statehood?

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RE: What if we had helped the Mujahideen in Afghanistan? - 9/29/2007 1:28:27 PM

lazarus1983

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quote:

ORIGINAL: InnocentYoungSub

I thought the Mujahideen got into power anyhow, in the form of the Taliban?

That's true, they did eventually, but they also took with them a hatred of the US for leaving them high and dry.

(in reply to InnocentYoungSub)

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RE: What if we had helped the Mujahideen in Afghanistan? - 9/29/2007 1:29:16 PM

FullCircle

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Life is not about what if's it's about what nows.

That was my platitude of the day.

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RE: What if we had helped the Mujahideen in Afghanistan? - 9/29/2007 1:30:54 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983

So my question is, do you think that if we had continued aiding the Mujahideen, and not just taken our ball home with us, would the situation in the Middle East be different now?

The Americans would have had to have given them a huge amount of aid because Afghanistan produces virtually nothing of note, with the exception of opium.

What's in your mind? Iraq? What do you mean when you say the Middle East situation?

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RE: What if we had helped the Mujahideen in Afghanistan? - 9/29/2007 1:32:14 PM

InnocentYoungSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983

quote:

ORIGINAL: InnocentYoungSub

I thought the Mujahideen got into power anyhow, in the form of the Taliban?

That's true, they did eventually, but they also took with them a hatred of the US for leaving them high and dry.

Yeah, yet another problem we have that is actually of our own making. Seems to be pattern with this country and it's foreign affairs...

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RE: What if we had helped the Mujahideen in Afghanistan? - 9/29/2007 1:32:26 PM

cyberdude611

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Osama would have still founded Al-Queda because what made the fundamentalists angry is that Saudis (muslims) allied with Americans (christians) against other muslims (Iraq). They were angry because the United States and the west allied to push Saddam out of Kuwait. And they thought the west had no business doing that.

It also would not have solved the Israeli-Palestinian confict.

So I really dont think it would have mattered all that much.

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RE: What if we had helped the Mujahideen in Afghanistan? - 9/29/2007 1:51:40 PM

LadyEllen

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I seem to remember when we went in to Afghanistan, we went in with the aid of the Mujahideen to expel the Taliban?

I seem to recall that the Mujahideen held a small part of the country, into which our special forces went, joined up with them and invaded from there?

I also seem to remember that the Mujahideen despised the Taliban for being as much foreigners (for the most part) as the Soviets and for being competely nuts?

E

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RE: What if we had helped the Mujahideen in Afghanistan? - 9/29/2007 2:03:47 PM

Level

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Mujahideen is any Islamist that engages in jihad, which included the Taliban. Once the Soviets were defeated, the tribes and factions began to fracture, I believe.

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RE: What if we had helped the Mujahideen in Afghanistan? - 9/29/2007 2:37:48 PM

PlayfulOne

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We did help them, thats how we got into this mess. We would have been much better off had we just let the Soviet Union slap them around. The enemy of our enemy is our friend. Problem being they nevver liked us to begin with so when they defeated the Soviet Union they turned their attention to us.

We were so intent on getting back at the Russians that we ignored what was actually happening. The Russians were teaching women to read, building schools, hospitals, athletic complexes, they were doing many things that benefited the Afghan people. The radical Islamist were livid (funny we kept referring to these people as "freedom" fighters, they were about many things but freedom was not actually one of them). The Russians viewed radical Islam as one of their biggest problems (funnny again how late we were to that show).

The big event that brought the Russian troops into the country? Every man, woman, and child in a consulate were beheaded. What did they do wrong? They were teaching women to read. (Oh those terrible Russians)

We doomed the Afghanistan people to rule under the Taliban because Regan wanted to get at the Russians. We also screwed up our own fates because those are now the same terroist we have been fighting.

K

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RE: What if we had helped the Mujahideen in Afghanistan? - 9/29/2007 5:05:02 PM

FatDomDaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I seem to remember when we went in to Afghanistan, we went in with the aid of the Mujahideen to expel the Taliban?

I seem to recall that the Mujahideen held a small part of the country, into which our special forces went, joined up with them and invaded from there?

I also seem to remember that the Mujahideen despised the Taliban for being as much foreigners (for the most part) as the Soviets and for being competely nuts?

That about sums it up.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

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RE: What if we had helped the Mujahideen in Afghanistan? - 9/29/2007 5:09:07 PM

lazarus1983

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I seem to remember when we went in to Afghanistan, we went in with the aid of the Mujahideen to expel the Taliban?

I seem to recall that the Mujahideen held a small part of the country, into which our special forces went, joined up with them and invaded from there?

I also seem to remember that the Mujahideen despised the Taliban for being as much foreigners (for the most part) as the Soviets and for being competely nuts?

E

As explained below, Mujahideen is anyone involved in a jihad, Taliban or otherwise.

All aid was funneled through Pakistan, because the various tribes of the Mujahideen wouldn't accept direct help from the US. That includes our various SF groups.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

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RE: What if we had helped the Mujahideen in Afghanistan? - 9/29/2007 5:27:10 PM

ChicagoSwitchMal

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If we hadn't supported the mujahideen we'd probably be fighting Maxist right now. Who knows. Could be a case of damned if we do, damned if we don't. A good summary of the conflict is here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan

(in reply to lazarus1983)

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RE: What if we had helped the Mujahideen in Afghanistan? - 9/29/2007 5:56:27 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I seem to remember when we went in to Afghanistan, we went in with the aid of the Mujahideen to expel the Taliban?

I seem to recall that the Mujahideen held a small part of the country, into which our special forces went, joined up with them and invaded from there?

I also seem to remember that the Mujahideen despised the Taliban for being as much foreigners (for the most part) as the Soviets and for being competely nuts?

E

As explained below, Mujahideen is anyone involved in a jihad, Taliban or otherwise.

All aid was funneled through Pakistan, because the various tribes of the Mujahideen wouldn't accept direct help from the US. That includes our various SF groups.

The Mujahideen ( strugglers ) were involved in a Jihad ( it means struggle not holy war ) and were mainly a loose knit coalition of various tribal warlords. Each group being independent but sometimes joining forces to fight the Russians.
When Russia pulled out the different warlords started to fight each other. Corruption was rife and some pashtun Mullahs formed the Taliban ( religious students ) to fight the warlords. Who the Taliban considered, and rightly so, to be corrupt.
The group of warlords left fighting the Taliban became known as the northern alliance.
Americe funded the Mujahaideen through Pakistan, nothing to do with the Afghans not wanting Western aid, and everything to do with America not wanting to be seen to be pushing Russia.

(in reply to lazarus1983)

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RE: What if we had helped the Mujahideen in Afghanistan? - 9/30/2007 10:46:34 AM

Alumbrado

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quote:

So my question is, do you think that if we had continued aiding the Mujahideen, and not just taken our ball home with us, would the situation in the Middle East be different now?

Yeah... the Hindus would be mounting suicide bombers to blow us up for helping the people who are trying to destroy them.

Applying 'what if' logic to religion, hatred, or politics is sometimes known as 'pissing up a rope'.

(in reply to Politesub53)

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RE: What if we had helped the Mujahideen in Afghanistan? - 10/1/2007 7:20:45 AM

Quarry

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quote:

So for those that may or may not know, in the 80s the Soviet Union was fighting rebel Mujahideen (sp?) fighters in Afghanistan. The CIA was funneling equipment to the Mujahideen through Pakistan.

There's a bit more to the story. We began arming the the Mujahideen six months prior, to provoke a reaction.The US wanted the Soviets to invade Afghanistan. We wanted them "bogged down" in a Viet Nam style conflict and we preferred they do it in Afghanistan - where we didn't care much about the people or the politics - rather than in, say, Germany or Poland. You can read more about it here: http://www.oilempire.us/afghanistan.html

quote:

Unfortunately, we weren't so much interested in helping liberate Afghanistan

We were never interested in liberating Afghanistan. Quite the opposite. If we'd wanted a free, independent, human rights respecting, civilized country, we could have supported the (halfway decent) government they already had. It certainly wasn't paradise, but it was a lot better than what they had when the whole thing was finished.

But we didn't want them to be independent. This was called "the threat of a good example". If one country went independent, pursuing its own interests and telling both the US and USSR to go screw, and it got away with it, other countries in the region might start doing the same. Iran did it in the late seventies and holy jesus did it piss off the American government. We're still hoping to bomb them for this crime. What if Saudi Arabia or the UAE followed suit? Can you imagine the reaction in Washington?

In any case, since we ended up not controlling the country, we wanted it to remain chaotic, violent, and as close to destroyed as we could get it. It was, in some sense, independent, but it there was no way Syria or Pakistan or Iraq would ever look at it and say "Hey! Yeah! That's what want our country to look like!" It's kind of like the bully who beats the living hell out of the kid who dares to stand up to him. The other kids see it and know that they'd better not try the same thing.

quote:

So my question is, do you think that if we had continued aiding the Mujahideen, and not just taken our ball home with us, would the situation in the Middle East be different now?

Well, it's impossible to know for sure, but we might ask the obvious question: what happened in other middle eastern countries where we DID continue to support fascist, oppressive governments? So take for example Saudi Arabia. They have an elite ruling class loyal to the United states and, through terror and violence, they keep in line the rest of their citizens. We supply them with arms and training - hell, they even get figher jets. Or, we could look at Pakistan: again, the government there does what we tell it to instead of what its citizens want. Both countries are, for obvious reasons, on the brink of violent revolution (Saudi more so than Pakistan, but Pakistan is gaining ground every day). Both countries use secret police, terrorism, torture, (not to mention suppression of democracy and freedom of speech) and all sorts of other nastiness to keep the general public in line. The situation in places like the UAE or Egypt may be a bit better, but it's hardly what you could call freedom and independence.

So sure, we could have an Afghanistan today that looked like that. Is that desirable? Well, for a lot of people who work in Washington DC, sure it is. But for those of us who like freedom, democracy, and human rights, it's not.

(in reply to lazarus1983)

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