too strong to be a slave? (Full Version)

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Treasure3 -> too strong to be a slave? (10/1/2007 5:33:31 PM)

Tonight I was told something that, well... I just don't know what to think.  Now, I'm just putting this topic out there to generate discussion, as I am now totally fascinated to hear other's opinions and perceptions.  DISCLAIMER:  I am not in any way saying there is "one true way" or that your kink is wrong or anything like that.  Everyone has the right to what is right for them, and I am not trying to infringe on that at all.  I simply want to bring this to the board for discussion and debate.

I know there are those for whom the term slave in this lifestyle means someone without will or opinion, who has no alternative other than abject obedience because she (feel free to change gender as needed) is not capable of leaving the relationship because, well, because she is a slave.  Her needs have no importance, she has no worth.  Great, if that is what both agree to going in, and what fulfills them. 

I'm sure by now, it is apparant that this view doesn't match mine.  The first Master I ever served told me something that stuck with me because it was true FOR ME.  He said the only kind of slave worth owning was a strong woman, otherwise what value was there in it?  What use is there in owning a woman whose ONLY choice in life is to subjugate herself?  Any slave he would consider would come to slavery from a position of personal power.  In other words, she would have other options, but would choose to yield to one who she respected enough to call Master.  Her mind is to be made use of and her purpose was to make his life easier, and if he somehow told her to do something that was detrimental in some way, he expected he to speak up and voice her concerns so that he could reevaluate and decide if he wanted to continue whatever course he had started.  It didn't mean he would necessarily change his mind, and by the tenents of the agreement, she would have to obey, but she was expected to exercise her mind and her judgement. 

Tonight I was told that I am in the minority, that MOST people accross the country and around the world would vehemently disagree with the idea of a strong slave, that the majority of people expect a slave to be basically a mindless, spineless creature who blindly follows her Master simply because she is a slave.  Is this the case?  Is the majority opinion in the BDSM community that a strong woman can never be a slave?  If so, why?

I hope I have been able to explain my question clearly.  I am looking forward to reading the opinions of others.



CuriousLord -> RE: too strong to be a slave? (10/1/2007 5:37:21 PM)

I think you're just describing what most people would call a "sub", and calling it being a "slave".

If you perfer to use "slave", that's fine.  Just.. well, if you tell someone else the word "slave", they're going to think of something different.  And that's just not very practical for communication purposes.


PS-  A lot of posters on CM are very liberal with terms.  "slave" and "strong" are both two things that you may use very differently from others.  The conflict/disagreement you sense and the conflict/disagreement others might sense are likely to be illusionary due to misinterpretation and misunderstanding.

I just see another confused thread with people "debating" skew ideas to a lack of understanding of eachother coming up.



Stephann -> RE: too strong to be a slave? (10/1/2007 5:38:14 PM)

Anyone who says a slave shouldn't be a strong woman, clearly has never owned one.

I, personally, in the type of dynamic I expect, would be bored with a woman I didn't feel could challenge me. I actively tell my girls "fight me, if you can, if you can best me you deserve someone stronger."

Their job isn't to submit to the collar, their job is to let me do my job; dominate them.

Sounds to me like you're either not willing to submit to a man who is, in fact, stronger, or you simply haven't met a man who was strong enough to own you.  Assuming you actually want to be owned by someone that strong, that is.  Being owned by a very strong individual is...well, honestly not for the faint of heart.

There are other dynamics you can involve yourself within mind you; a very strong woman can still submit to a strong man, without being his slave.

Regards,

Stephan





kyraofMists -> RE: too strong to be a slave? (10/1/2007 5:45:49 PM)

I remember being told several years ago that I was "too smart to be a slave".  Hmmm... yeah, ok.

I have been a slave for two and a half years and my intelligence and critical thinking is one of the things that he quite enjoys about me and puts to his own use.  Strength of character is something that is definitely needed to be his slave as well. 

Of course for some people I would be a really crappy slave because of the things that he finds of value, but for him I am the perfect slave.

Knight's Kyra



AquaticSub -> RE: too strong to be a slave? (10/1/2007 5:46:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Treasure3

He said the only kind of slave worth owning was a strong woman, otherwise what value was there in it?  What use is there in owning a woman whose ONLY choice in life is to subjugate herself? 

*snip*

Tonight I was told that I am in the minority, that MOST people accross the country and around the world would vehemently disagree with the idea of a strong slave, that the majority of people expect a slave to be basically a mindless, spineless creature who blindly follows her Master simply because she is a slave.  Is this the case?  Is the majority opinion in the BDSM community that a strong woman can never be a slave?  If so, why?


That is how Valyraen feels. Any woman who didn't have a choice, who submits to everyone just isn't worth owning to him. He enjoys the fact that I don't have to submit to him, that I do just fine on my own. He feels my submission is worth more that way. Obviously that doesn't work for everyone - others would find me completely unsuitable!

I really wouldn't say you in are in the minority or the majority. Those I've encountered out in the real world follow our line of thinking, but there are definately enough people on CM that follow the other line that it isn't a rarity. There are several things about BDSM that just boil down to personal preference and philosophy. If I were you, I wouldn't worry about it. [:)]



Treasure3 -> RE: too strong to be a slave? (10/1/2007 5:49:09 PM)

Stephann,

This post was sparked by a conversation I had with another sub.  Personally, I wouldn't consent to being someone's slave unless I was POSITIVE they were stronger than me, and I believe that it is my job to choose a Master wisely as I do view the position of slave extremely seriously.  I just don't believe the position requires me to check my brain at the door.  I haven't found that yet, so this isn't a case of me not willing to submit, but rather at the moment a case of not having the right person to call Master in my life yet.  The sub I was speaking with tonight just kind of threw me for a loop when she said that most in the lifestyle wanted basically what on the forums people seem to call a doormat and that because I wasn't willing to be that that I had no hope of ever being a slave.   



pseudopsychotic -> RE: too strong to be a slave? (10/1/2007 5:49:11 PM)

quote:

 that the majority of people expect a slave to be basically a mindless, spineless creature who blindly follows her Master simply because she is a slave.


Why would anyone want to own something worthless?
I personally don't see the fun in it.



mistoferin -> RE: too strong to be a slave? (10/1/2007 5:58:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
I remember being told several years ago that I was "too smart to be a slave".  Hmmm... yeah, ok.


Yup, yup...been told that too. Or my favorite....you're just not NEEDY enough. LOL.

What a great big, stinky crock.....



sweetnurseBBW -> RE: too strong to be a slave? (10/1/2007 6:00:25 PM)

Most of the time ignorance breeds words like that. Most people that say things like that have never met a slave. I have been a slave a long time and have always served those that want an intelligent, strong willed, strong minded slave.

I know subs, slaves and dominants that are weak, it isn't just a slave thing. Being a slave is what you both want it to be. I find that people that say " you don't do __, so you aren't a slave" are mostly just misinformed and ignorant. I know my Maser doesn't want to own someone that feels they are weak or doesn't use their own mind.



mistoferin -> RE: too strong to be a slave? (10/1/2007 6:11:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Treasure3
Tonight I was told that I am in the minority, that MOST people accross the country and around the world would vehemently disagree with the idea of a strong slave, that the majority of people expect a slave to be basically a mindless, spineless creature who blindly follows her Master simply because she is a slave.  Is this the case?  Is the majority opinion in the BDSM community that a strong woman can never be a slave?  If so, why?


I think that it may be the majority opinion if your pool consists primarily of weak or insecure men who are intimidated by strong women. It gets further perpetuated by the mindless and spineless who proudly wave their inability to be responsible for themselves as if it were the hallmark of what it takes to be a "true" slave.



KnightofMists -> RE: too strong to be a slave? (10/1/2007 6:16:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Treasure3

He said the only kind of slave worth owning was a strong woman, otherwise what value was there in it?  What use is there in owning a woman whose ONLY choice in life is to subjugate herself?  Any slave he would consider would come to slavery from a position of personal power.  In other words, she would have other options, but would choose to yield to one who she respected enough to call Master.  Her mind is to be made use of and her purpose was to make his life easier, and if he somehow told her to do something that was detrimental in some way, he expected he to speak up and voice her concerns so that he could reevaluate and decide if he wanted to continue whatever course he had started.  It didn't mean he would necessarily change his mind, and by the tenents of the agreement, she would have to obey, but she was expected to exercise her mind and her judgement. 



I general... I very much agree with what you are sharing here.  But.. I would add.....

When we become involved deeply and strongly with another person... the idea that their is a choice of other options slowly begins to disappear.  It is actually a good thing in my opinion.  It is more a reflection that the relationship is going well that no person in the relationship sees a viable option outside of having the given relationship.  In time as the relationship goes on... you stop believing their is an option.  I have been with Alandra for more than a few years.. and I personally don't see an option/choice outside of her being mine!  Is it possible...yeah sure it is .... but it is not a choice or option to be considered. 

I very much consider that persons of strong character bring alot into a relationship.   I don't want weak person in my life... but I appreciate that we all can have weak moments in life.  I value a strong person.... no matter the relationship.  Be they Slave, friend or whatever....   Strong character is something to be admired in my eyes.



MsBearlee -> RE: too strong to be a slave? (10/1/2007 6:19:45 PM)

Can a submissive or slave be ‘too strong’?  Personally, I believe it takes real strength to BE submissive.
 
Does it take a strong person to handle a strong submissive?  I would say no…not if she was submissive to that person. 
 
While the Dom/mes we consider when we say ‘Dominant’ ARE, by and large…strong people; the best ones are not domineering and most of them are probably not even particularly physically strong.
 
I believe the choice belongs to the submissive; if one chooses to follow; all the Dominant has to do is lead.
 
Okay...with regard to the one who stays because they have no choice; that is not a consentual submissive; that is a person who needs help.  Serious help.
 
B



amelliagrace -> RE: too strong to be a slave? (10/1/2007 6:23:24 PM)

Fast reply to the OP -
 
Weak slaves are for weak Dominants.
 
-grace



amelliagrace -> RE: too strong to be a slave? (10/1/2007 6:27:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsBearlee

 
While the Dom/mes we consider when we say ‘Dominant’ ARE, by and large…strong people; the best ones are not domineering and most of them are probably not even particularly physically strong.
 


Yes, indeed.  "Dominant" and "Dimineering" are not the same thing.
 
-grace



MidMichCowboy -> RE: too strong to be a slave? (10/1/2007 6:39:27 PM)

I want strength, intelligence and honesty. Then its up to me to prove I'm worthy of them. Besides, struggle and such brings some spice to a relationship. :)



HouseBetwnWorlds -> RE: too strong to be a slave? (10/1/2007 6:49:00 PM)

We fully believe that a slave serves through strength and intelligence. In recorded history you constantly hear of slaves that are generals, governors of territories (See Janisaries) artisans, teachers, craftsman etc. (See Roman Empire & Greece) In all of those situations it was very strong and secure Masters that owned them.

A slave is suppose to be the most valuable thing you can own. Why do you want anything weak and will give you just a lifeless body and not a think mind and soul too?



Lashra -> RE: too strong to be a slave? (10/1/2007 6:58:38 PM)

I wouldn't have a slave that wasn't strong. I do not want a man who is weak, but who is strong and knows what it is that he wants. And he has to want to kneel at my feet.

~Lashra



Tigrita -> RE: too strong to be a slave? (10/1/2007 7:02:33 PM)

Note, I'm not a slave, but I've had the same impression you had at first, that dominant men who want strong submissives are rare.  But the real dominants are out there, who do want and can master strong women.  Hang in there, and never settle!  Of course you won't, you're stronger than that ;)

Something Stephan said to me: "You can be as strong as you want with me.  And as weak as you want." 

He knows, respects, and appreciates my strength, and knows that being strong is the easy part for me.  The later is much harder for me, a strength in its self, one I'm working on, and makes our bond stronger than any other I've experienced.



xoxi -> RE: too strong to be a slave? (10/1/2007 7:03:36 PM)

A favorite quote of mine, that is now lost somewhere on page 2 of my CM journal.  I think I will add it to my profile:

A man's sexual choice is the result and the sum of his fundamental convictions. Tell me what a man finds sexually attractive, and I will tell you his entire philosophy of life. Show me the woman he sleeps with, and I will tell you his valuation of himself. ... He will always be attracted to the woman who reflects his deepest vision of himself, the woman whose surrender permits him to experience - or to fake - a sense of self-esteem. The man who is proudly certain of his own value, will want the highest type of woman he can find, the woman he admires, the strongest, the hardest to conquer - because only the possession of a heroine will give him the sense of an achievement, not the possession of a brainless slut.
-Ayn Rand



DiurnalVampire -> RE: too strong to be a slave? (10/1/2007 7:07:55 PM)

I agree with Lashra.
A slave that is strong enough not to have to subjugate himself, but has chosen to do so becasue of who I am, is the only slave worth keeping.  I have had phenomenal servants who had no backbone, and I couldnt stay interested in them becasue I couldnt respect them enough.
Strenght is admirable and attractive.  Strong slaves are my preference simply becasue if smeone isnt at least as strong as I am, I know I will never be able to respect them long enough to keep them long.

DV




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