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Psychology - 10/6/2007 2:42:48 PM   
dmarc


Posts: 38
Joined: 11/9/2004
Status: offline 		The mind is fascinating and For a Master its equally fascinating and if anything an the ultimate adventure to work within the mind of a sub/slaves, This sounds a bit like brain surgeon stuff, for some it is for other its not. Like anything its down to preference and also the consent you gain or are given. For Me Mind bondage Must be taken seriously. You can play with a person for years and go through the ever-growing list of the bondage experience. But one area that is free even when the physical world of the sub/slave is controlled is the mind (some may argue this is not true, and again I believe its down to point of view and the people involved). So I shall share with you my understanding and thoughts of Mind bondage.   The mind is both the centre of ones self and the character of the person (mentally). The 2 facts need to be separated out.   So firstly the list of Minds elements that make it the centre of ones-self ("COS" For short), for those still wondering what the hell I am on about its like the operating system of a person and includes the following:  

1)How to walk
2)How to eat
3)How to Communicate (language)
4)How to do there Job
5)The understanding of there environment
6)The understanding of there advanced education(university & collage Education)
7)There understanding of themselves
8)There understanding of sex etc)I am sure there is more on this list.

The second area.   The character of the person ("COTP" again for short), includes the following: 

1)There Habits
2)There Likes
3)There Dislikes
4)There Techniques of life (e.g. how one wash’s themselves)
5)There dresses style
6)There preference to food
7)There Preference to sexual experiences
etc)Again I am sure there is more on this list.  

I hope from these 2 lists (which are in no means complete) give’s an idea of what I am talking about, COS should not be altered or modified. So this means that any conditioning that your training contains must be focused based so that it makes the greatest impact on the COTP.   To give you an example of a natural human habit. Take a female and although I am not a female I am sure every women has been taught to sit when going to the toilet. So say sub/slave as part of her Master's training, she is being conditioned so she will naturally always Do the toilet standing. So whenever she goes to the toilet the Master insures her position is standing, if she sits she gets punished, ok fair enough. But what the Master does not train is who she relieves herself, therefore leaving the COS alone and allowing her to function as a human being. I hope I am showing you that my views of train lead to a clear difference from conditioning the COTP and Not the COS of a person.  

Things to discuss, I will start with mine, which is habits; Habits can be hard to break. So the conditioning of a sub/slave can be long and hard regarding this, the first habit I would change is the sitting habit, were a sub/slave must sit exposed when in private premises. I would first clearly state the desires, and then enforce with punishment. I would expect at first to give many punishments out, and then as time progresses the punishments would be less and the sub would achieve my wishes and sit the way I desired without me enforcing the desire or requesting it. 

There for she has been conditioned to act in a natural way that is the desire of the Master. In other words she has been moulded.

What would you change (or desire to be changed), and how would you do it?  

< Message edited by dmarc -- 10/6/2007 2:44:57 PM >
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RE: Psychology - 10/6/2007 3:06:19 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Well you're using the wrong form of "there."  You want the possessive form "their."

I'm not sure I understand- how is how a person eats "part of self" but their habits are part of personality?  Isn't how a person eats a TYPE of habit?

Explain why you chose to put those things into those categories and why exactly you think you can/should change one and not the other.

And let's not forget that most dominants have habits, mannerisms, personality issues and more which should also be improved and changed and molded over time.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to dmarc)
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RE: Psychology - 10/6/2007 3:28:39 PM   
Babybass


Posts: 230
Joined: 7/30/2007
Status: offline 		Thank you, LA, for the correction of there/their - I wanted to hit my screen everytime i saw it!!
I also do not fully understand how the OP has come up with his list - how to eat etc. Unless he is talking about when to eat - as in obeying your body and eating when you are hungry. What he has called COTP seem to be learned behaviours - habits. Why anyone would want to change how a person behaves is slightly beyond me. Surely it is all of a persons mannerisms and habits that make them unique and to change all of those to suit you would make them exactly like the last slave you trained. It is another level of control perhaps, but I cannot see why anyone would want  to change someone in that manner. If there is a behaviour you prefer in a sub/slave, then I am sure that they will perform that task as you ask/train them to - why do you feel you need to change the essence of who they are?
I realise that you may well argue that a persons habits do not make them who they are - but it makes them who they are in relation to the world - it is how they interact with people and things. Any habit can be unlearned - and a new one formed to replace it, but if a habit is not harmful why would you want to change it?

_____________________________

"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best day and night to make you like everybody else means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight and never stop fighting" - e e cummings

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Psychology - 10/6/2007 3:43:01 PM   
kirii


Posts: 79
Status: offline
I am sorry, but I totally and completely disagree with everything that you have put here.
Both of your lists are ‘habits’ (actions learned over time ) not traits ( personality/mentality/physicality )
In my opinion, mental bondage comes from UNDERSTANDING how and why a person ACTS a certain way, and then striving to control the how and why. Not the reason, but the action.

(in reply to dmarc)
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RE: Psychology - 10/6/2007 5:02:40 PM   
Darkmike


Posts: 76
Joined: 6/3/2006
Status: offline 		While I feel Dmar is trying to make an interesting point I think he is going about it in a bad way.
for me the core of ones being are the actions defined by the brain stem, beating of the heart, autonomic responses, then wrapped around that you have the middle layer, the emotive mind, the limbic system, the bridge between the core and the ego, then wrapped around that you have the neo cortex, the egotic mind.
Habits are generally formed in the neo cortex, and for basic survival they are not strictly necessary.
Walking and talking are the only autonomic/semi-autonomic responses on that list.

If a submissive has a positive habit I will let it be.
if she has a negative habit or a phsycological limit i will attempt to help her break free of a limiting phsycological block.

With regards to peeing sitting down, or even peeing in public, that is a very deeply ingrained habbit that is embedded into the subconcious at a very early age, normally the first scolding a child gets is when it goes to the toilet somewhere that the parent disapproves.
Removing this phsycological block is actually a very powerfull way of overcomming the shame based mentality that has been enforced on the person.
It can also be very liberatingfor a submissive.


(in reply to kirii)
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RE: Psychology - 10/6/2007 5:06:31 PM   
dmarc


Posts: 38
Joined: 11/9/2004
Status: offline 		Well with my dyslexia I find it extremely hard to distinguish there and their. In fact I have tried not to write in forums because the grammar errors take the attention away from the subject that I am writing about. With that said here are some answers to the comments.

As for the issue about eating, this is basically about a person’s personal development for example “how to eat” meaning using a knife and fork (say against using chopsticks or figures), other form of personal development include: Career (Job), the way they live, there preferences in sex(what they like and dislike).

In talking about habit, it's not necessary to change a major habit like how one sits but it can be simple like to help one stop biting there nails or something similar (which lets face it that could be a positive to the sub/slave). Of course its changing anything of the other is down to the people involved in the relationship, So people will completely disagree with it & some will adore it, either way its personal preference.

As for the statement that all that I said is habits, a baby communicates with there mother, that’s not a habit. It’s a natural mental ability. Oh another point one will always have a reason to do an action (be it consciously or subconsciously for example. One picks up a fork because they intend to use it (yet at they can also forget why the picked it up).

In regards to this statement “as in obeying your body and eating when you are hungry. What he has called COTP seem to be learned behaviours - habits. “

Exactly that is why habits were the first on the list:, but habits have to start from somewhere:   the definition of habits include: Practice; tendency; pattern; routine.

It can be said that when one is hungry they are feeling the condition of being hungry and reacting to it by eating which in turn creates a routine.

LuckyAlbatross stated it well “And let's not forget that most dominants have habits, mannerisms, personality issues and more which should also be improved and changed and molded over time.”

No person is perfect, and nor psychology.

Darkmike I do agree with some of your comments though, we just have different ways of looking at it, there is no right or wrong way of viewing this. History has shown that people can recover from brain damage to some degree, which means that the brain structure is capable of changing, in response to the individual’s environment (even though it maybe be a very limited adaptation)

There are hundreds of ways to view psychology and each person will view it in there own way, I never wrote this piece to interrupt anyone else’s view except my own, and my aim was to hear other peoples OWN view of Mind bondage and how they would wish to use it (if at all).
Dmarc

< Message edited by dmarc -- 10/6/2007 5:17:42 PM >

(in reply to kirii)
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RE: Psychology - 10/6/2007 5:10:43 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		It sounds like you're trying to create a new term "mind bondage" for a concept we already have a completely workable and known term for already "training."

Can you specify exactly what the difference is between the two concepts in your mind?

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to dmarc)
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RE: Psychology - 10/6/2007 5:32:45 PM   
dmarc


Posts: 38
Joined: 11/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross


Can you specify exactly what the difference is between the two concepts in your mind?


Concept 1) (COS) INTERNAL DEVELOPMENT: experiences that happy no matter where a person is or what there doing for example feeling hungry (which then will developed into the solution of using a fork and eating the food).

Concept 2) (COTP) EXTERNAL DEVELOPMENT: They use the fork because the parents or Guardian has trained them to use it (they could eat with there hands). The environment has conditioned them to use the fork through repetitive training. This experience will then link into either they like to use the fork or don't like to use the fork or that it becomes a habit and they don't think about it.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Psychology - 10/6/2007 5:41:44 PM   
dmarc


Posts: 38
Joined: 11/9/2004
Status: offline 		I would also like to point out that although very clearly mind work is also a moral issue, I tried to stay clear of that debate simply because each person has there own set of morals, and I want to respect that.

(in reply to dmarc)
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RE: Psychology - 10/6/2007 7:34:19 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		So you're saying it's impossible to train someone on an internal aspect of themselves?

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to dmarc)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Psychology - 10/6/2007 8:25:09 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dmarc

So firstly the list of Minds elements that make it the centre of ones-self ("COS" For short), for those still wondering what the hell I am on about its like the operating system of a person and includes the following:  

1)How to walk
2)How to eat
3)How to Communicate (language)
4)How to do there Job
5)The understanding of there environment
6)The understanding of there advanced education(university & collage Education)
7)There understanding of themselves
8)There understanding of sex etc)I am sure there is more on this list.

The second area.   The character of the person ("COTP" again for short), includes the following: 

1)There Habits
2)There Likes
3)There Dislikes
4)There Techniques of life (e.g. how one wash’s themselves)
5)There dresses style
6)There preference to food
7)There Preference to sexual experiences
etc)Again I am sure there is more on this list.  



Well, first, neither of these two lists seem to be in any kind of logical order whatsoever and many of the things listed cross over from list to list.

I personally fail to see how walking, eating and job performance are included in this concept of the internalized hardwired self that should not be changed or can be changed.

If I was hard pressed enough, I could train someone to crawl on their hands and feet instead of walking normally, eat a variety of different foods, eat in a variety of different ways, or resist the urge of hunger to eat less than they normally would before.

I fail to see how job performance is something that should not be changed or makes up this "part of the self" that shouldn't be messed with. My job performance is modified and changed by the influence of other individuals every day, especially when I am doing a bad job.

If I have a slave who is in service to me and she is doing a crappy job at work and failing to meet her performance reviews for raises, I plan on doing what I can to help and improve that problem so she can meet her goals.

As far as understanding of ourselves, our environments, and our education, well, these are things that are constantly evolving and changing in some way every single day. I came to new revelations and epiphanies of my environment when I read B.F. Skinners "Beyond Freedom and Dignity". I came to new ground breaking understandings of my self through the works of Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Sadre, and Fische. My education is constantly changing as I learn new facts or discover old ones to be false.

As far as understanding of sexuality, once again, I fail to understand how this is something that shouldn't or cannot be changed. An all new paradigm of understanding of my sexuality began the first time I logged on to a BDSM website and forum. Were all these people supplying new information and new understanding somehow doing something wrong because they aided and manipulated my own growth?

Then under your list of things that are primarily the focus of behavior modification, you have "Likes and Dislikes".

I would be interested in hearing now one goes about "training" (or "using Mind Bondage") someone into having a love or like of football when they previously hated it.

I have had a girlfriend attempt to "train" me into developing a new love of musicals, but, I assure you her methods failed miserably because at the end of the day, I am still just a guy who doesn't like musicals. Its just part of my "self".

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 10/6/2007 8:28:47 PM >

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to dmarc)
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RE: Psychology - 10/6/2007 8:38:33 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dmarc

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross


Can you specify exactly what the difference is between the two concepts in your mind?


Concept 1) (COS) INTERNAL DEVELOPMENT: experiences that happy no matter where a person is or what there doing for example feeling hungry (which then will developed into the solution of using a fork and eating the food).

Concept 2) (COTP) EXTERNAL DEVELOPMENT: They use the fork because the parents or Guardian has trained them to use it (they could eat with there hands). The environment has conditioned them to use the fork through repetitive training. This experience will then link into either they like to use the fork or don't like to use the fork or that it becomes a habit and they don't think about it.



Once again these things dont make much sense to me.

It would make more sense if you said the first category included human feelings and desires that cant be changed. For example, I cant make the feeling of hunger or a desire for sadism just magically disapear into thin air. However, I can train how they react or respond to the desire or feeling.

Perhaps thats what you mean by Internal and External Development? Internal being the feelings and desires themselves.

That would make more sense, since whether the behavior is a byproduct of grandparents training or a purely independent development such as a response to hunger, doesnt influence whether or not the behavior can be modified.

Further more, in this definition of your two categories, you seem to be identifying two seperate sources that can create behaviors.

In your orginal definition, your categories seemed to be lists of different parts of human psychology that can/cannot or should/should not be influenced or changed.


< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 10/6/2007 8:40:38 PM >

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to dmarc)
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RE: Psychology - 10/7/2007 1:00:56 AM   
dmarc


Posts: 38
Joined: 11/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

So you're saying it's impossible to train someone on an internal aspect of themselves?


No I am not saying that, I believe it is possible to retrain someone on the internal aspects of themselves.



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RE: Psychology - 10/7/2007 3:24:53 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		You have some control fantasies. You also have no experience whatsoever, I gather. Happily, for you would damage a girl.
 
To control is what a master or owner does, but his function does not stop there. He takes on full responsibility for his slave, for her safety. The training that you fantasize about is harmful. Therefore you are not (yet) ready to be a master.
 
A natural slave benefits from having an owner, because he enables her to reach her full potential as a superhuman being. A natural master has an innate ability to do this with a natural slave. I see no indication that you have any such awareness.

(in reply to dmarc)
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RE: Psychology - 10/7/2007 5:17:44 AM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

You have some control fantasies. You also have no experience whatsoever, I gather. Happily, for you would damage a girl.
 
To control is what a master or owner does, but his function does not stop there. He takes on full responsibility for his slave, for her safety. The training that you fantasize about is harmful. Therefore you are not (yet) ready to be a master.
 
A natural slave benefits from having an owner, because he enables her to reach her full potential as a superhuman being. A natural master has an innate ability to do this with a natural slave. I see no indication that you have any such awareness.


LOL

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Psychology - 10/7/2007 5:29:56 AM   
sundownhawk


Posts: 151
Joined: 8/17/2007
Status: offline 		Rule, I would give dmarc the benifit of the doubt here. It seems he is trying to explore the psychology of training from a different perspective which should provide some interesting discussion and perhaps it is just that he seeks to see how his thoeries can be blended with traditional methods while he organizes these thoughts.



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The number one job of the dominant is to continually seduce consent from the bottom. ~Joseph W. Bean~

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RE: Psychology - 10/7/2007 5:41:08 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		I advise him to join a local bdsm society and to observe and to give this a lot more thought. At the moment he gives the impression of wanting to study medicine and deciding to perform open belly surgery before having attended one class of college and without having a scalpel.
He races in where nearly all psychologists would fear to go.
 
The God of the Dead does not appreciate it when someone messes up one of the incarnations of the Goddess of Slaves.

(in reply to sundownhawk)
Profile   Post #: 17
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