RE: Abortion

RE: Abortion (Full Version)

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CuriousLord -> RE: Abortion (10/8/2007 2:21:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 I'm not sure how YOU could "screw up something they like". The law in the United States if very clear and there's no indication it's going to change regarding abortion any time soon. The majority of the United States Supreme Court supports and recognizes as rights, freewill and the woman's right to decide. Just because, every time someone realizes the colleratal damage of their actions a bit more, it's less of a positive discision in their favor (assuming a lack of sadism). It's unlikely that I would change the law, laurell3. But if people actually listen to reason and work it out, the simple answer of "kill the baby" won't be as viable anymore. Then they'd have more problems to deal with. quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 If you shovel dirt into your logic, people are going to respond to the dirt. If it's a logical debate on the merits you truly desire, I would suggest keeping the dirt out of it, which you have not done in this thread despite your assertations now that you want to debate on logic. Everyone has a right to their opinion and honestly many posters here have dealt with the subject up close and intimately and struggled with it. In response to their posts you shovel dirt. Well sometimes you get what you ask for, that's just how it works. Now my opinions and reason are, in your own words, dirt. And you've accused me of not caring for what other people have to say.

iracnia7 -> RE: Abortion (10/8/2007 2:21:53 PM)
I have four wonderful children who I love dearly, but I have also had an abortion, I am very fertile, and despite my contraception I got pregnant. I had four children allready, and health problems which meant it would be hard for me to have another child. So I chose to have an abortion. I was quite aware when I went into the hospital that it was murder in a sense, and to take the life of your own child is a very difficult thing to do. But as my relationship had ended, I had no prospect of being able to give this new baby a good life, and was not even sure if I would be able to carry it, I decided that it was better for my child not to be born. This is often the case, when a young girl gets pregnant, or when a woman is not in a situation where she can not have a healthy child, it is important to have the choice of abortion. I do not regret my decision, and I am glad that I live in a time where I could go into hospital and be cared for. Issues such as abortion are allways hard to judge, it is a case of each person needing to weigh up their own needs and the needs of their children. But we are educated adults, and should be able to make our own decisions with good judgement. Taking away the liberty to do this because some people do not make good decisions in their personal lives is in my opinion wrong. More advice, more education, more support do help, taking away the freedom to choose how we live our lives does not help.

dcnovice -> RE: Abortion (10/8/2007 2:23:36 PM)
quote: It's unlikely that I would change the law, laurell3. Why wouldn't you change the law, CL?

SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: Abortion (10/8/2007 2:24:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord And, you know what? Maybe, if I was born back then, I'd never have realized it was wrong. But, if someone told me it was, I wouldn't say, "That's just your opinion." I'd tell them to explain their reasonings to me, and I'd discuss mine with them. And, after such a discussion, I'd adopt the new reasoning- which, in this case, would change my opinion. Opinions are baseless without reason. quote: ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne thats a silly argument-i know you can do better Ah, not silly at all! It was a rather nice analogy. They've basically been demanding I be quiet, saying it's all a matter of opinion, trying to discount mine due to my age, instead of debating it. They hate my opinion because, if I'm right, it'd screw up something that they really like. ok......tell me how you KNOW abortion is murder.......im listening with an open mind

dcnovice -> RE: Abortion (10/8/2007 2:25:13 PM)
quote: I have also had an abortion Thanks for sharing your story, iracnia! A very powerful first post.

SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: Abortion (10/8/2007 2:27:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord quote: ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord snip Yeah. Because I don't understand the difference. You're making the assumption that I'm wrong, and that you know better. Have you, perhaps, considered that I believe in discussing the reasonings instead of just accepting opinions at face value? i have seen no one on here tell you you were wrong. you are the only one screaming folks are wrong. i have seen folks say their opinion differs from yours.......theres a big difference. You realize that, in the "snip", there was the backquote to the person who I was responding to, who said: Simply put, it's not murder. You think it is, but that's just your opinion, based on your own 'prejustices' It was in the very same post you were responding to. But, please, point out to me where I said someone was wrong without having justifed the statement. I'd like to see a reasoning that I've ignored. lawd i wish the dishes needed doing or something.......you have not, in my humble opinion, justified any statement you have made.....you have stated your opinion, the same as everyone else...... im going for some herbal therapy....maybe then this will make more sense.......

laurell3 -> RE: Abortion (10/8/2007 2:32:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 I'm not sure how YOU could "screw up something they like". The law in the United States if very clear and there's no indication it's going to change regarding abortion any time soon. The majority of the United States Supreme Court supports and recognizes as rights, freewill and the woman's right to decide. Just because, every time someone realizes the colleratal damage of their actions a bit more, it's less of a positive discision in their favor (assuming a lack of sadism). It's unlikely that I would change the law, laurell3. But if people actually listen to reason and work it out, the simple answer of "kill the baby" won't be as viable anymore. Then they'd have more problems to deal with. quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 If you shovel dirt into your logic, people are going to respond to the dirt. If it's a logical debate on the merits you truly desire, I would suggest keeping the dirt out of it, which you have not done in this thread despite your assertations now that you want to debate on logic. Everyone has a right to their opinion and honestly many posters here have dealt with the subject up close and intimately and struggled with it. In response to their posts you shovel dirt. Well sometimes you get what you ask for, that's just how it works. Now my opinions and reason are, in your own words, dirt. And you've accused me of not caring for what other people have to say. Actually no CL, as my first post in this thread states, I believe both prochoice and prolife have merit in their arguments. I understand your belief that abortion is wrong. I personally don't agree with it. My post merely points out that you whine that people pick on you after you responded inappropriately to the postings of people's very real life, difficult, agonizing stories and decisions which are much more than words on a screen and a debate. You seem to want to now say you're just debating the merits, I would suggest unless you make amends for your previous statements, people are not going to listen to what you have to say. l

CuriousLord -> RE: Abortion (10/8/2007 2:33:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation yes i really want your answer Alright. But, everyone else, she asked, so I'll be honest. No flames. I think you're a normal person who runs off of prejustices. You rely on them because you simply haven't had enternity to learn all the reasonings behind right and wrong. You're also selfish, as all humans are. No one's an exception-even Mother Terresa acted, at the biological level, out of selfish reasons, because what she did worked for her. What you did killed, what, two children? But you did it for reasons that you thought were right, because that's, apparently, what you decided from all the things you've heard before. What you did is disgusting. If there was a God, he wouldn't have let it happen. He'd have stopped you and made it so that those children could've lived long, happy lives. But there isn't a God and you were left to make a decision you could scarcely comprehend. I imagine is wreaked emotional hell on you. You did it because you thought it was the best thing for you to do. A large part of that meant it was the best thing for you, personally. And you just didn't know better. So now they're dead. In that world.. in a world where someone looks over you, you aren't responsible. You aren't responsible when there's a God, and I think that's why people want one so much.. God frees you from responsiblity so long as you do what he says, thatet sort of release a sub gets in "subspace" when she can be perfect by just pleasing her Dom. But, there's no God. And, even though you were ignorant, it is convention that you are responsible for the deliberate inhuman act. Therefore, you were an inhuman monster in those decisions; or, perhaps, a human monster, ironically enough. Are you an inhuman monster now? I don't know. Would you kill those kids again?

laurell3 -> RE: Abortion (10/8/2007 2:37:35 PM)
"What you did killed, what, two children? But you did it for reasons that you thought were right, because that's, apparently, what you decided from all the things you've heard before. What you did is disgusting. " CL I give up. You are a very foolish young man that may be intelligent but lacks common decency. Get off the PC and go live life. You clearly have a very sheltered idea of what it is. Iracnia I'm sorry you were put in the position to have to make that decision. It sounds as though you agonized over it. Thank you for sharing. l

CuriousLord -> RE: Abortion (10/8/2007 2:38:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: It's unlikely that I would change the law, laurell3. Why wouldn't you change the law, CL? I moreso meant that it's unlikely that it'll happen. Back in the American South, many brilliant abolitionists tried to dismantle slavery. A fair number were linched as "nigger lovers", or something like that. Not that I think, if I pursued this, I'd be lynched.. but my point is that people don't want to give up their "rights", even if those rights come at the expense of others'. All of the abolitionists failed. Even after a relatively unrelated war changed it, to this day, we still take people from foriegn nations and pay them next-to-nothing for what is, escentially, slave labor. The slave labor we can't get here, we get from Chinese children in swet shops. I have to step out- already five minutes late to Bio, so I may have to call it a day. Peace.

CuriousLord -> RE: Abortion (10/8/2007 2:40:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 CL I give up. You are a very foolish young man that may be intelligent but lacks common decency. Get off the PC and go live life. You clearly have a very sheltered idea of what it is. She asked. And then confirmed when I asked if she really wanted to know. I get my opinion doens't matter to you, because it's different from yours, and no amount of reason will change that. I am going to Biology. To study things like this, because I believe in looking for the truth instead of just saying something is because I want it to be. I'm not sure what you're doing with your life, but I hope it's worthwhile.

SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: Abortion (10/8/2007 2:41:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation yes i really want your answer Alright. But, everyone else, she asked, so I'll be honest. No flames. I think you're a normal person who runs off of prejustices. You rely on them because you simply haven't had enternity to learn all the reasonings behind right and wrong. You're also selfish, as all humans are. No one's an exception-even Mother Terresa acted, at the biological level, out of selfish reasons, because what she did worked for her. What you did killed, what, two children? But you did it for reasons that you thought were right, because that's, apparently, what you decided from all the things you've heard before. What you did is disgusting. If there was a God, he wouldn't have let it happen. He'd have stopped you and made it so that those children could've lived long, happy lives. But there isn't a God and you were left to make a decision you could scarcely comprehend. I imagine is wreaked emotional hell on you. You did it because you thought it was the best thing for you to do. A large part of that meant it was the best thing for you, personally. And you just didn't know better. So now they're dead. In that world.. in a world where someone looks over you, you aren't responsible. You aren't responsible when there's a God, and I think that's why people want one so much.. God frees you from responsiblity so long as you do what he says, thatet sort of release a sub gets in "subspace" when she can be perfect by just pleasing her Dom. But, there's no God. And, even though you were ignorant, it is convention that you are responsible for the deliberate inhuman act. Therefore, you were an inhuman monster in those decisions; or, perhaps, a human monster, ironically enough. Are you an inhuman monster now? I don't know. Would you kill those kids again? the red indicates your "prejustices"................you say she murdered 2 kids........i say she had some cells sucked out of her womb, not unlike a DNC....... show me facts that indicate she murdered 2 children.........a glob of dna does not a child make......thats my opinion, a result of my so-called prejudices, and it is as valid as yours...... [sm=banghead.gif]

missturbation -> RE: Abortion (10/8/2007 2:46:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation yes i really want your answer Alright. But, everyone else, she asked, so I'll be honest. No flames. I think you're a normal person who runs off of prejustices. You rely on them because you simply haven't had enternity to learn all the reasonings behind right and wrong. You're also selfish, as all humans are. No one's an exception-even Mother Terresa acted, at the biological level, out of selfish reasons, because what she did worked for her. Ok right and wrong. It is your opinion my choice was wrong not fact. What you did killed, what, two children? But you did it for reasons that you thought were right, because that's, apparently, what you decided from all the things you've heard before. What you did is disgusting. Killed two children. That is your opinion, it is not mine. If there was a God, he wouldn't have let it happen. He'd have stopped you and made it so that those children could've lived long, happy lives. But there isn't a God and you were left to make a decision you could scarcely comprehend. I imagine is wreaked emotional hell on you. God. It is your opinion God would have stopped me not fact. You did it because you thought it was the best thing for you to do. A large part of that meant it was the best thing for you, personally. And you just didn't know better. So now they're dead. I did it because it was the best thing for me. It is your opinion that i only thought it was best. I didnt know better? Excuse me! In that world.. in a world where someone looks over you, you aren't responsible. You aren't responsible when there's a God, and I think that's why people want one so much.. God frees you from responsiblity so long as you do what he says, thatet sort of release a sub gets in "subspace" when she can be perfect by just pleasing her Dom. But, there's no God. And, even though you were ignorant, it is convention that you are responsible for the deliberate inhuman act. I'm not ignorant. I looked at my choices from all angles. Therefore, you were an inhuman monster in those decisions; or, perhaps, a human monster, ironically enough. You missed off the in your opinion. You state as though your opinion is fact yet again. Are you an inhuman monster now? I don't know. Would you kill those kids again? yes i would make the same choice again in the same circumstances. Now i am going to say here i asked you answer my question. The reason i asked you to answer is because i wanted to see if you actually would be a hypocrite. You have repeatedly asked people not to call you names for your beliefs and opinions and yet you called me an inhuman monster. I will also now ask you again why you cannot accept that to have an abortion or not have an abortion is individual choice. You are entitled to your opinion but it is just that, opinion.

kdsub -> RE: Abortion (10/8/2007 2:48:31 PM)
Argue argue …and children keep dieing… just forget who is right or wrong and lets figure a way to help them… in a previous post I tried to give some alternatives for women but it was ignored… No one else has presented an answer or compromise. I think you would all rather argue who is right or wrong and the hell with the babies. As an example a good friend of mine, and a strict anti-abortionist, decided not to have children because the only way she could was In vitro fertilisation. She would not do it because the doctor told her that some fertilized eggs may be destroyed in the process. So here she is denying a childs existance because MAYBE another egg would be destroyed. In effect she is killing her own child. Pitiful.

laurell3 -> RE: Abortion (10/8/2007 2:53:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 CL I give up. You are a very foolish young man that may be intelligent but lacks common decency. Get off the PC and go live life. You clearly have a very sheltered idea of what it is. She asked. And then confirmed when I asked if she really wanted to know. I get my opinion doens't matter to you, because it's different from yours, and no amount of reason will change that. I am going to Biology. To study things like this, because I believe in looking for the truth instead of just saying something is because I want it to be. I'm not sure what you're doing with your life, but I hope it's worthwhile. Yep as I stated above in this thread. I work fulltime with families that deal with the consequences. It's very worthwhile. And for the third time, I understand your argument and recognize it has some validity. However, the shit you shovel at people who share REAL life stories is intolerable. I would suggest learning the difference between emotional garbage and logic before you launch another debate on any topic. They are very much not the same and one detracts from your argument and makes you appear unintelligent. l

DesertRat -> RE: Abortion (10/8/2007 2:59:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord I get my opinion doens't matter to you, because it's different from yours, and no amount of reason will change that. Your reason just leads you to an opinion, nothing more. Your opinion doesn't matter one bit to me, because, in your post #327, you show your ignorance, arrogance, and inability to grasp what's being said to you. In your mind, abortion is killing children and therefore murder. You think that the "reasoning" you've applied makes that opinion a universal truth. Based on what I've seen, you could easily come up with some equally plausible "logic" that would prove the opposite of your present position...and then that would be your "truth". It's called sophistry. Some call it spin. If your "reason" works in your head, then good for you. I'm not gonna go through the looking glass and join you in your version of reality. I'll watch, though, 'cause you're a hoot! If you don't see what's wrong with phrases like "inhuman monster" and "opinions are stupid", then, I hate to be the one to break it to ya, kid, but you're not really all that intelligent. Not that it matters. Bob

BitaTruble -> RE: Abortion (10/8/2007 3:04:15 PM)
~FR~ CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE SECTION 187-199 187. Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought. This section shall not apply to any person who commits an act that results in the death of a fetus if any of the following apply: The act complied with the Therapeutic Abortion Act, Article 2 (commencing with Section 123400) of Chapter 2 of Part 2 of Division 106 of the Health and Safety Code. The act was committed by a holder of a physician's and surgeon's certificate, as defined in the Business and Professions Code, in a case where, to a medical certainty, the result of childbirth would be death of the mother of the fetus or where her death from childbirth, although not medically certain, would be substantially certain or more likely than not. The act was solicited, aided, abetted, or consented to by the mother of the fetus. Subdivision (b) shall not be construed to prohibit the prosecution of any person under any other provision of law.1 I chose my home state of California to start this post. Abortion, in California, does not meet the legal definition of murder. Feel free to see if it meets the legal definition in your home state. To me, the argument appears to come down to whether or not someone sees a fetus as a human regardless of whether or not the termination of such would result in an actual murder. I think that by any criteria, that's going to be subjective in nature rather than objective and factual. Simply put, some believe that life begins at conception, some that it begins at a certain point in pregnancy and some that life begins at birth. I'm in the middle of the road and believe that human life begins after (not at) conception but before birth. That said, I believe that human 'spirit' begins at conception and if there is trauma of some sort to the vessel, that spirit is then free. I can't prove that because it's simply a matter of faith. I guess if I'm going to expand on what makes someone an actual human, it's best to start at the beginning. So, how did we all start? Take one gamete, which is basically a mature germ cell with a couple of chromosomes and infuse it with another gamete of the opposite gender and if they mesh, they form a zygote. So far, we've got two germ cells on a date. I can't call that human .. yet. Actually, we'd better start a bit further back than that. What's a germ cell? A small mass of living substance capable of developing into an organism. That's close enough for the purpose of this discussion. So, it's not an organism yet, but it has potential. Anyway, fast forward.. these two germs cells are mature, they get along pretty good and decide to try to make a go of it and start moving and grooving and shaking to the music and doing all the math that's required to divide and conquer the state of being a zygote, so they sit in the cooker for about 12 weeks and, 'lo and behold, they graduate zygote school and head on into fetus university. At this point, my brain goes.. wow, cool.. nature rocks.. that there is on it's way to becoming a mini me. In 'my' mind, that's now a baby and all that's happening from this point on is tweaking the fancy parts. I don't have compassion for mature germ cells but I can't deny that my emotions cloud my judgement once those cells reach the stage where they are human to me. I am pro-choice for 1st trimester pregnancy and special circumstance. I think every woman has the right to choose if she wants to become pregnant. Rape, incest, faulty birth control all take those choices away and abortion, if made illegal, would further deny a woman the choice on what to do in those circumstances. The special circumstance consideration is that if in giving birth and to a higher degree of medical certainty, such would result in the death of the mother, then a woman should not be forced to choose her own death to bring new life into this world. Some women will chose their own death to save the life of their unborn child, some won't. It needs to remain their choice though, not one in which the state is allowed to mandate the death of an adult simply because they are pregnant. That's my belief on abortion. My belief on whether or not 'men' should have a say in the choice is, I believe they should be allowed input, a voice, but ultimately, they are the not the gender giving birth so they should 'not' be allowed the final word. That word belongs to the woman unless she, through her consent to do otherwise, has given up the freedom of her choices and puts them into the hands of her Master. That's a whole different ball of wax. Celeste

dcnovice -> RE: Abortion (10/8/2007 3:05:00 PM)
Let's see if we can't steer this poor thread into a more positive direction. Imho, the key question in the abortion debate is when does one become a legal person, with rights that must be balanced against those of other persons (notably the expectant mother). Is it at conception, when paternal and maternal DNA fuse (not sure if that's the right word) and form a new being? Is it when the brain starts function? When the baby can feel pain? Or is it not until the birth, when the baby finally achieves bodily independence from his or her mother? What do you all think and why?

laurell3 -> RE: Abortion (10/8/2007 3:06:25 PM)
Celeste it doesn't, because the United States Supreme Court says it cannot. No state can pass any law outlawing abortion, but the guidelines on when, how, information, education can vary. l

dcnovice -> RE: Abortion (10/8/2007 3:09:09 PM)
quote: To me, the argument appears to come down to whether or not someone sees a fetus as a human Wow, Celeste: You answered my question before I'd even posted it. And a wonderfully thoughtful answer too. As ever, you rock!

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