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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 3:53:46 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Just because someone really wants something doesn't make it right- even if that something is killing another to stave off some agony. 


The purpose of the law is to protect the majority from the views of the minority. Well that’s my take on things. The majority of people, I think, are still pro choice therefore this debate is a bit academic. I don’t know that’s an absolute hard fact but I do know if there was enough pro-life momentum the law wouldn’t be as it is now.


Yeah, the law's pretty slow to recognize things.  I mean we had slavery in the US for how long before abolition?  And, let's be honest.  We only had abolition because Lincoln happened to tack it on as a side thing at some point in a war started over other reasons.

And women's sufferage, and stuff like that?  Hasn't happened in many great civilizations throughout history for hundreds of years, at all!  And at least half of the population probably wanted that.

Anyhow, my point is, just because it's slow in coming doesn't mean it's not wanted.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
I’m happy with the law as it is apart from the 22 weeks limit, that should be reduced in my opinion. It’s not easy to get an abortion either quite frankly because a doctor has to agree to it after assessing the woman’s mental state. Some people seem to think this is a rubberstamping procedure and abortions are like something you order from the supermarket. They should really get this idea out of their head as it has no basis in reality.


Yeah, but it's not really that idea that's causing this, you know?  A lot of us just strongly disagree with the institution.  And, as Level's statistics pointed out, a lot of these things really are just for convinience.  Not that all of them are- but, I mean, a lot are.. and a lot of people don't seem to recognize that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
Anyway thanks and goodnight.


Good talking to ya.  I know you have to go, so it's not the kindest thing to keep responding to points, as then you'd want to respond to the responses, and it just goes on 'til conclusion.  :P  Not sure where you have to go, but I know I need to study, but I guess I both like debate and feel strongly on this issue, so it keeps me here a bit longer than I probably should be.

Anyhow, peace.

(in reply to FullCircle)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 4:01:50 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		I knew i should not read this thread, i'll never learn. However now i have i feel compelled to post.
I had my first, yes first abortion 9 years ago. I was using contraceptive but as everything else it wasn't 100% guaranteed and i got pregnant. I wasn't in a stable, lasting relationship and i really did not want another child. I made a decision that i felt was best for me at the time and had an abortion, i was 8 weeks pregnant. Selfish? perhaps. Right decision? Definately.
My second abortion i had 6 years ago, again it was a contraception failing, but this time i did not find out i was pregnant until i was 20 weeks. I was in a steady solid relationship and we decided we both wanted the baby. Unfortunately tests revealed that the chances were that the baby would be born mentally impaired. We agonised over what to do and decided that the babies quality of life would be the deciding factor. Doctors were not very encouraging with this and so we decided i would abort.
The reason i have shared this is that i think we all have choices and we all have the right to make them. Yes i acted selfishly with my first abortion and people may possibly think the same of the second. But it was my decision to make and i really believe that until you have 'walked a mile in my shoes' you have no clue how you personally would deal with an unwanted or complicated pregnancy.
 
your second abortion thats not an extreme case, i think you should be sterallized....
Good job your opinion doesnt really count then.
 
they are pregnant after the first trimester and then decide to have an abortion because its inconvinient...and then the baby is never given a chance to live because they "humanely kill it" by crushing its skull....its sickening....
Curious to see proof of this. I know for a fact that is not how my late abortion was done and i really dont think abortion techniques will be so diff in the UK to USA.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 4:09:41 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		I'm a bit confused.  Are you responding to me?  If so.. well, I didn't make those quotes..

So, you've killed a set of babies because you didn't want to be their mother.  Yeah, I think that's wrong.  And, yeah, I don't like having to say that to you directly, but, hey, I do think it's messed up.

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 4:14:30 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		No they weren't directed at you.
You are entitled to your opinion and i even respect it.
However i will question the selfishness of having a baby that you are informed will have no quality of life? Would you really bring a life into the world that would have no life?
Edited to add - if you read my post again you will see i clearly did want the second child so please refrain from stating untruths.
 

< Message edited by missturbation -- 10/7/2007 4:16:24 PM >

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 4:16:17 PM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

And, hey, what's different about killing a toddler and a fetus?


The toddler lives independently of his or her mother's body. The fetus does not.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 4:20:07 PM   
CuriousLord


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Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

And, hey, what's different about killing a toddler and a fetus?


The toddler lives independently of his or her mother's body. The fetus does not.


There's three problems with this.
1.  You're claiming that the ability to live independently validates or invalidates one's right to life.
2.  A toddler can no more live without help than a fetus.
3.  Many late-term aborted fetuses are capable of being taken out via C-section and still living.

They're still alive.  Being depedent on the parents for substainance and protection doesn't negate this, whether it's from inside of or outside of the womb.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 4:22:30 PM   
MySweetSubmssive


Posts: 1139
Joined: 2/7/2006
From: Lehigh Valley, PA
Status: offline 		So, would you be against someone having their appendix removed?  That's alive.

MSS

_____________________________

"Oh, James, you're such a cunning linguist."

--Miss Moneypenny

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 4:23:19 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

as someone who has lived this


juliet ---

Thank you for sharing your story. It was incredibly powerful.

Peace,

DC

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to julietsierra)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 4:25:41 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

No they weren't directed at you.
You are entitled to your opinion and i even respect it.
However i will question the selfishness of having a baby that you are informeed will have no quality of life? Would you really bring a life into the world that would have no life?

 
Suppose, for a moment, that you did have the baby that would have had little quality to life.  At five years old, would it have been okay to chop off its head?  Or, perhaps, its life would've had some value as being another human being, even if it was disadvantaged?

I'd like to note I'm regretful to have this portion of the debate as I detest using personal examples.  It has far too much potential to harm debaters, which is.. not something one finds admirable.  I'll discuss it with you, as you've brought it up, though I'd like to note I'd respect a request to discontinue any discussion concerning your personal life at first request.

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Edited to add - if you read my post again you will see i clearly did want the second child so please refrain from stating untruths.


I'm afraid it is true.  People seem to mistake "want" a lot.

Like, if you say, "I want to buy a TV, but then I wouldn't be able to pay my appartment's rent", that means you'd like the aspect of having a TV; it doesn't mean you want to deal with the consquences.  Since you don't want to deal with the consquences, you don't want to buy the TV, even if you'd enjoy having it.  Same deal here.  You may've wanted to actually have the child, but you didn't want to deal with the consquences.

And, again, blah.  I really do hate talking about one's personal examples when I have so little to say in the positive light about it.

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 4:28:28 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive

So, would you be against someone having their appendix removed?  That's alive.


Is it a human, though?

(in reply to MySweetSubmssive)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 4:30:42 PM   
blueeyespup


Posts: 13
Joined: 10/1/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		i have already posted my opinion way back, so i won't state it again.

i left for a few hours and i when i returned, WOW there were alot of new posts.

one thing i'd be curious to know is how many people on this thread have actually experiened pregnancy first hand.  i think that plays a huge role in forming your opinion ~ prol-life or pro-choice ~

(in reply to MySweetSubmssive)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 4:32:50 PM   
susie


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Joined: 11/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

I'm a bit confused.  Are you responding to me?  If so.. well, I didn't make those quotes..

So, you've killed a set of babies because you didn't want to be their mother.  Yeah, I think that's wrong.  And, yeah, I don't like having to say that to you directly, but, hey, I do think it's messed up.


You have made your position on the debate quite clear but to say to someone "you've killed a set of babies because you didn't want to be their mother" is incredibly insensitive, rude and arrogant. Comments like that show that you really have no idea what a woman goes through. That is nothing to do with your gender, as other men have proven on this thread that they can at least attempt to understand what a woman feels. I know you think for some reason that you have a "value far greater than others" but so far you have shown yourself to have little compassion or understanding of others.

Perhaps that has a lot to do with your age and when you grow up you might actually begin to understand things that happen around you. Life is not and never will be black and white.

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 4:33:31 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

No they weren't directed at you.
You are entitled to your opinion and i even respect it.
However i will question the selfishness of having a baby that you are informeed will have no quality of life? Would you really bring a life into the world that would have no life?

 
Suppose, for a moment, that you did have the baby that would have had little quality to life.  At five years old, would it have been okay to chop off its head?  Or, perhaps, its life would've had some value as being another human being, even if it was disadvantaged?
No certainly not. I had a very difficult time making this decision. Lifes value. Well any child has value but did i want to bring a child into the world that would have never walked, never got out of nappies, never fed itself, never gone to school, basically had no quality of life. Want? Yes i did. Feel it was fair on the child? No.

I'd like to note I'm regretful to have this portion of the debate as I detest using personal examples.  It has far too much potential to harm debaters, which is.. not something one finds admirable.  I'll discuss it with you, as you've brought it up, though I'd like to note I'd respect a request to discontinue any discussion concerning your personal life at first request.
I have no problem discussing this with you at all. Im not offended by your comments at all. The only thing i request is that you try to think about what life means when it has no quality.

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Edited to add - if you read my post again you will see i clearly did want the second child so please refrain from stating untruths.


I'm afraid it is true.  People seem to mistake "want" a lot.

Like, if you say, "I want to buy a TV, but then I wouldn't be able to pay my appartment's rent", that means you'd like the aspect of having a TV; it doesn't mean you want to deal with the consquences.  Since you don't want to deal with the consquences, you don't want to buy the TV, even if you'd enjoy having it.  Same deal here.  You may've wanted to actually have the child, but you didn't want to deal with the consquences.
No,i didnt want the child to deal with the consequences. I personally if told i was going to have no quality of life in six months would choose to die. No the baby could not speak for itself and yes i took the decision but i did what i thought was best for all concerned not just me.

And, again, blah.  I really do hate talking about one's personal examples when I have so little to say in the positive light about it.


_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 4:36:20 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

If a human can be kept alive, via medical procedure, then they are alive. Why is that hard to understand?


I don't think things are quite that simple. There's a lot of discussion/debate about end-of-life choices and what measures should be taken to prolong bodily life.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 4:37:05 PM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline
quote:

The children I have are safe. The child I was unable to have is fine and that's all that matters to me. (To explain this more would entail me going into more depth regarding my religious views and this isn't the place for it, nor is it germain to the conversation here. Besides, because they ARE my religious views, there isn't anything anyone going to say that will change them.)


julietsierra-  I commend you on your choice.  This is one of  those situations where the new life spurned you and gave you the courage to do what needed to be done, not just for yourself but for your other children also.  I see it that that life's purpose was to save you and the siblings.  Think how much strength that situation gave you to do what needed to be done.  Think how much you learned about yourself and your own strength that  might never had been realized but for that one life.  This is what I meant in my previous post here.  Ums  that are here for a short duration (either in or out of utero) are called "service children".  The impact and change they leave behind is far more intense and emphatic than those who have lingered here for decades.  I'm a believer in divine order.  Things occur exactly how they are meant to be.  So I would say that you should not grieve the situation or the choice you had to make...  the child fulfilled his life's mission.  

(in reply to julietsierra)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 4:38:45 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

i feel compelled to post


misst ---

Thanks for sharing your story.

Peace,

DC

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 4:39:33 PM   
MySweetSubmssive


Posts: 1139
Joined: 2/7/2006
From: Lehigh Valley, PA
Status: offline 		It's part of a human.

I'm pushing your argument to a logical, if absurd, conclusion. 

You said that be alive was the criteria and that a fetus and a toddler were equivalent.  These are not the same.  A toddler can be taken care of by someone other than it's mother.  A first trimester baby cannot exist outside of it's mother.  A toddler is human, but a first trimester baby is ... I agree that it is alive, but I don't believe that human applies yet.  I don't believe that humanity is present just because a sperm and an egg have come together.  I don't know where I believe the line to be, but ... again ... there are distinctions between a fetus and a viable, independently functioning person. 

If you truly believed that anything after conception was a human, you would be mourning continuously, as one third of abortions end in miscarriage, most before a woman even knows she is pregnant.

MSS

_____________________________

"Oh, James, you're such a cunning linguist."

--Miss Moneypenny

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 4:39:39 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: susie
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

I'm a bit confused.  Are you responding to me?  If so.. well, I didn't make those quotes..

So, you've killed a set of babies because you didn't want to be their mother.  Yeah, I think that's wrong.  And, yeah, I don't like having to say that to you directly, but, hey, I do think it's messed up.


You have made your position on the debate quite clear but to say to someone "you've killed a set of babies because you didn't want to be their mother" is incredibly insensitive, rude and arrogant.


Insenstive?  I'd say blunt.  Rude?  She brought it up, and I'm trying to be nice about it, but this is how I feel.  Try to understand that.  Arrogant?  How?

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie
Comments like that show that you really have no idea what a woman goes through. That is nothing to do with your gender, as other men have proven on this thread that they can at least attempt to understand what a woman feels.


So sexist.  Please try to understand I'm arguing for the baby's life, not about emotions or feelings.

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie
I know you think for some reason that you have a "value far greater than others" but so far you have shown yourself to have little compassion or understanding of others.


Actually, I told someone else that, if intelligence was the basis of value, then that would be the case; not that it was the case.  I was trying to show how that idea was silly.

But, of course, you're free to make things up, I suppose.  =/  And, yes, I obviously have so little compasion, wanting children to live at the possible emotional expense of some mothers when it doesn't threaten their life, isn't related to rape or incest, etc.  How truly lacking of compassion for me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie
Perhaps that has a lot to do with your age and when you grow up you might actually begin to understand things that happen around you. Life is not and never will be black and white.


Yeah.  I'm wrong because of my age.  You can't state any reasons I'm wrong, but, because I'm younger, I must be.  Because, as we all know, correctness is dictated by age.

Forgive me if I find you to be arrogant.

(in reply to susie)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 4:42:05 PM   
JackM1


Posts: 137
Joined: 2/3/2007
Status: offline 		abortion should be legal no matter what, but regulated. there is no reason that a 15 year old girl should have to have a baby SIMPLY because she was stupid. its NOT right to make someone so young and immature go through months being pregnant, people starring at her and calling her names, and then having to go through the trauma of either giving the baby up or being a mother at such a young age.

if youre in your mid-upper 20's, are making ok money and dont have a reason NOT to have the baby, then by all means. abortion is NOT a form of birth control, and people should be responsible for their actions...but is it really fair to force someone who cant afford a baby to have one? everything involved with being pregnant and having a baby is expensive, and honestly...there are enough orphans in need of a good home in this world, we dont need MORE babies being shoved into foster care because the bleeding hearts said it was wrong to have an abortion; well, where are the bleeding hearts now that this poor, nearly murdered baby is in foster care and possibly being abused? granted, these are the same bleeding hearts who say that teaching kids about birthcontrol is wrong and giving them ideas about having sex...well...how strange it is INDEED that a good chunk of girls who get pregnant live in areas where birth control isnt readily available or discussed. strange indeed.

personally, i believe that everyone woman has the right to choose what happens to her body. with that thought, id like to mention that any person with a penis or a y chromasome shouldnt voice any opinion about abortion, or try to bush their beliefs about it on anyone else. why? because despite everything they believe...they will NEVER have to decide to keep a baby, they will NEVER become pregnant(at least not in the foreseable future) and they wont be the ones with the giant beach-ball belly being ridiculed by everyone they come accross for being a single or teenage mother. until male-pregnancy is invented, no man should ever be responsible for the regulation or creation of laws against(or infact for) abortion.

while on the topic of choice, id also like to mention that if someone DOES choose to have an abortion, odds are the decision was a hard one to make and the woman is already feeling guilty enough, there is no reason why they should be harrassed and guilted into keeping a baby they simply feel as though they cannot have. there are some nutjobs out there that are trying to force women to see an ultrasound of the fetus before the abortion, and to sign a death certificate which is then hung around the clinic or on public record. this is cruel and traumatic. if you are like the majority of women who have abortions, you already feel guilty about deciding to have an abortion, there is no reason to make these women feel even worse than they already do. an example; http://bp1.blogger.com/_a7jkcMVp5Vg/RwggSWGGYVI/AAAAAAAACEE/NUA7XI27os8/s1600-h/choice.jpg this woman made the decision to have an abortion, and the experience effected her very severely.

(in reply to susie)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 4:42:18 PM   
MySweetSubmssive


Posts: 1139
Joined: 2/7/2006
From: Lehigh Valley, PA
Status: offline 		Do you think that experiencing pregnancy would be likely to make someone pro-choice or go the other way?

MSS

_____________________________

"Oh, James, you're such a cunning linguist."

--Miss Moneypenny

(in reply to blueeyespup)
Profile   Post #: 160
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