RE: Freedom -from- religion? (Full Version)

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DomKen -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/7/2007 9:48:24 PM)

Try the First Ammendment to the US Constitution as interpreted by SCOTUS in Lemon v Kurtzman.



dcnovice -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/7/2007 9:51:12 PM)

quote:

philosophy: ..in my views the idea of freedom from religion has to be observed at the governmental level to be meaningful. It's no use having a right not to pray if the leader of your country makes decisions from a religious standpoint.


quote:

Level: That's impossible to achieve, phil. If a man or woman is religious, then that almost certainly is going to come into play.


It's important to remember, I think, that a leader's religious beliefs can be a force for good. I think Lincoln's opposition to slavery was rooted at least partly in his faith. FDR's sense of Christian compassion underlay his efforts to relieve misery during the Depression. LBJ pusued civil rights legislation--knowing, as he said, that it would cost Democrats the South for 50 years--because he believed it was right.



kdsub -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/7/2007 10:02:39 PM)

Deny the existence of God all you want… but you cannot deny the existence of good and evil… if you do you are not thinking.

My religion embraces good…if I were to be elected to public office I would make decisions on what was good for me and the people I represent. On a personal level those decisions would match my religion but should make no difference to those of different religions or philosophies.

I should not be persecuted for my religious  beliefs, as long as they match the common good, then someone that believes differently or not at all.

Remember the founders of our country were very religious and mostly Christians and managed to govern quite well. They were so wise to require the separation of church and state...but that does not mean they did not make decisions for the common good based on their religion.

The belief or disbelief in God has never been the problem… It has been mans greed, lust for power, and intolerance for those different then themselves that has caused pain and suffering in our world.

Many believe religion is the cause of strife in this world…I think without religion the carnage through history would have been much worse.

It is true that throughout history we have had large groups of people of different religions battle each other with much death and destruction… but without those same religions the death and destruction within those groups would have accounted for even more deaths. And still ...man would fight over resources with even more deaths.

Butch



MySweetSubmssive -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/7/2007 10:14:06 PM)

I think Lincoln's opposition to slavery was rooted at least partly in his faith.  

Actually, this is very much not true.  That I am aware of, Lincoln was not sympathetic to the conditions of slaves.  It was all about crippling the power of the south so they couldn't secede.  Make you sad?  It did when I found out.

---

Regarding a moment of silent prayer in schools ... I think this is a slippery slope and can allow for coercion for people who aren't of a majority faith.  I remember being in sixth grade, having recently moved from Ohio to Virginia.  I was shocked when we had, as our teacher coyly called it, "a moment of private prayer."  Um.  What if my prayer isn't sitting with my head bent?  What if it's standing with my arms widespread and shouting my joy aloud to the dewy grass?  (Go me, I was a pagan before I knew it!)  Even if it was "private prayer," it was distinctly Christian in nature, particularly when most of my classmates were Baptist.  There were assumptions about norms that functioned as coercion.  Later on that same teacher offered prayers aloud.  When your teacher is your authority figure, that's not appropriate. 

While I am a person of (indeterminate) faith, I would be very displeased if I found out this was happening in my um's school.

MSS



DomKen -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/7/2007 10:22:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Remember the founders of our country were very religious and mostly Christians and managed to govern quite well. They were so wise to require the separation of church and state...but that does not mean they did not make decisions for the common good based on their religion.

Hold on there a minute.

The Founding Fathers were definitely not all deeply religious and some of the most prominent were, at best, deists and were not christian in any sort of conventional sense.

Benjamin Franklin makes his feelings quite clear in his autobiography.

Thomas Paine published _Age of Reason_ which helped popularize deism.

Thomas Jefferson was attacked as an atheist during the 1800 presidential campaign although his own writing indicate a deist rather than atheist philosophy.

James Madison, the author of the Bill of Rights, was either a deist or an outright atheist. This can be seen by reading his collected writings which most good libraries should have. Take special note of his letters from the end of his life arguing against the appointment of chaplains in the military and Congress.

Further examples on other prominent founders can be provided as well.



MySweetSubmssive -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/7/2007 10:23:04 PM)

"Remember the founders of our country were very religious and mostly Christians and managed to govern quite well.." (emphasis mine)

Very much not true.  The signers of the constitution were primarily deists ... fairly close to secular.  Their brand of faith was based on reason and personal experience rather than theism. 

And as to good and evil, it's not an idea I'm invested in.

MSS



Owner59 -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/7/2007 10:27:33 PM)

 I once heard, that if not for religion,we would have been on the moon a hundred years ago,and who knows how far, into space and beyond,by now.

Religion, has been one of the most anti-intellectual forces ,known to man.Starting before the torture and imprisonment of Galileo,to stem cell research today,religion has held science and technology back ,for centuries.

I also have a problem with folks who conflate "good",with religion.

Good and evil, have nothing to do with religion.And visa-versa.

Religion,tends to be more of a  political device.To me ,spirituality is what connects you with god.



dcnovice -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/7/2007 10:29:05 PM)

quote:

I think Lincoln's opposition to slavery was rooted at least partly in his faith.  

Actually, this is very much not true.  That I am aware of, Lincoln was not sympathetic to the conditions of slaves.  It was all about crippling the power of the south so they couldn't secede.  Make you sad?  It did when I found out.


Hadn't heard that before. Good excuse to read some more about old Abe.



kdsub -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/7/2007 10:29:07 PM)

I think I can safely say the majority of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were Christians.  As were the majority of the population at that time.



MySweetSubmssive -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/7/2007 10:30:33 PM)

You can say it.  But you'd be wrong.

MSS



Real0ne -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/7/2007 10:39:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Try the First Ammendment to the US Constitution as interpreted by SCOTUS in Lemon v Kurtzman.



I cannot find anything that i suggested that violates any laws.



onlyHisgirl -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/7/2007 10:39:20 PM)

i would also have to agree that many of the signers of the doc were Christian (minor in political science...this was one of my papers so i am refraining and enjoying ya'll talking about it...quite entertaining)

Dear Baby Jesus...8lbs 10 ounces...sleeping so helpless yet omnipotent...sorry, digressed...again. night ya'll



DomKen -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/7/2007 10:40:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I think I can safely say the majority of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were Christians.  As were the majority of the population at that time.

Nice shift of the goal posts. All of the signatories of the Declaration were officially christian since every colony had an official religion except maybe Pennsylvania and even there someone who didn't attend church on Sunday would have been, at best, ostracized and certainly not elected or chosen for any position of trust.

However those who led the colonies to freedom and wrote the documents this nation is founded upon were, at least, deeply skeptical of traditional religion.

John Adams may have been the most devout of the bunch and he was a very early member of the UU church which I doubt would make most evangelicals very happy.



Real0ne -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/7/2007 10:40:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I think I can safely say the majority of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were Christians.  As were the majority of the population at that time.


I cant speak for all the signers but definitely the creators were.



Owner59 -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/7/2007 10:45:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive

"Remember the founders of our country were very religious and mostly Christians and managed to govern quite well.." (emphasis mine)

Very much not true.  The signers of the constitution were primarily deists ... fairly close to secular.  Their brand of faith was based on reason and personal experience rather than theism. 

And as to good and evil, it's not an idea I'm invested in.

MSS



Thanks for pointing that fact out,MMS.

The founding fathers were not, mostly christian and this is not, a christian nation.They didn`t want douche bag religious types, trying to take advantage of average folks.

This is a common, and often repeated myth(lie,IMO).

Mostly perpitrated by the Christian Right,and the fundimentalists,this myth gives some folks, the feeling that they can push their dogma on Joe Public.

Like it`s their place,to insert their personal beliefes on the public.

A very tacky approch,to getting along with "thy" naeghbor 



Real0ne -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/7/2007 10:46:02 PM)

so how do y0u propose we defend a christian based constituition when people are not educated in christian morals?  or any morals at all for that matter?



onlyHisgirl -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/7/2007 10:46:17 PM)

oh, heck...let me just say that my paper concluded as well with many other scholars, books, and world reknown smart people...ha ha

That the orginal intent of abiguity  on the freedom of religion was left as such....get ready for it....because the "fathers" didn't want people to argue/fight over relgion and cause "civil disruption" much like the religious oppression that had started the colonies in the first place (i.e. my relatives yes...we were involved in the witch trials, too)....
irony of ironies...this was okay until people started questioning "Hey, what does this really mean".  Oh, those silly "fathers" will they never learn to leave things concrete?!?!  What exactly is freedom of the press and how much freedom of the press can we have?  Every single thing except for I think 2 items are left as abigious. (am i spelling that word right? i am really going to bed now"



Real0ne -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/7/2007 10:48:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The founding fathers were not, mostly christian and this is not, a christian nation.They didn`t want douche bag religious types, trying to take advantage of average folks.

This is a common, and often repeated myth(lie,IMO).

Mostly perpitrated by the Christian Right,and the fundimentalists,this myth gives some folks, the feeling that they can push their dogma on Joe Public.

Like it`s their place,to insert their personal beliefes on the public.

A very tacky approch,to getting along with "thy" naeghbor 



well you will need to cite that because i have read much of their writings and you are simply wrong.






DomKen -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/7/2007 10:50:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

so how do y0u propose we defend a christian based constituition when people are not educated in christian morals?  or any morals at all for that matter?

Since the Constitution is not christian based I have no opinion on your hypothetical question except to note that I took an oath many years ago to defend the Constitution from all foes foreign and domestic and anyone trying to create a theocracy in the US should keep in mind how seriously I take that oath.



kdsub -> RE: Freedom -from- religion? (10/7/2007 10:51:58 PM)

 You see Owner59 I believe that without religion in our history man would have found just as many reasons to persecute their fellow man. We are still a learning and developing species far from perfect and only a step or two above our fellow animals.

Good and evil are separate from religion…but there is no reason Good and evil cannot be part of religion as well.

I do equate my God with good...but I have no intension of preaching to you or anyone else… I will just go thru life living those principles and when I die I hope there is something beside oblivion. If there is I hope to see you there.

Butch  



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