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love AND M/s - 10/8/2007 8:49:56 AM   
Amena


Posts: 8
Joined: 10/7/2007
Status: offline 		This is a topic that has likely been done to death on these boards, but I haven't been able to find exactly what I am looking for.  Maybe I'm not doing the searches right or something, but I just haven't found my answers.  So, I thought I would post this to see other people's opinions and experiences.

Here's a little background and then I'll ask the question.  Spent a year and a half in a relationship with a Dom who claimed to want a slave.  This was spoken of from the first few conversations and one of the reasons we chose to meet and spend time getting to know each other.  We clicked.  It was great for a while and seemed to be moving in the direction of a collar.  Then, he started to love me.  I had already started falling in love with him by then, too.  Anyway, as soon as the L word started coming up, the focus seemed to shift, and little by little D/s went away.  I would initiate conversations about slavery and how to serve him better and explain to him how important it was to me.  He would start looking at collars and spend more time playing, but it all seemed like he was just trying to appease me because in a week or two things would go right back to where they were.  I tried my very best to serve, but felt no leadership whatsoever, and no matter how much we talked, it never changed for long.  Toward the end, he seemed to find a way to make it all my fault.  Maybe it was, I don't know anymore.  All I know is I felt like I had been deceived.

Now, I know there are couples out there who have a M/s relationship AND are madly in love with each other.  I also know there is a school of thought that Masters cannot love their slaves.  This is so terribly confusing for me.  I loved Master more than anything, and I don't understand why he no longer wanted to master me once he fell in love with me.

How can the two co-exist?  Are there things to look for when getting to know someone that are a tip off that they are one who can't separate love and M/s? 
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: love AND M/s - 10/8/2007 8:57:00 AM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline 		I think a Top has to really understand at a gut level that control is what some bottoms need.

If he's there-and not more a nilla with kink-or conflicted by old sterotypes.... Then exressing Domince IS love. When the D/s goes away when love enters-it's more likey you are seeing a mask coming off.

_____________________________

I seem to be some wierd combination of Ren and Stimpy

(in reply to Amena)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: love AND M/s - 10/8/2007 9:13:48 AM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline 		You will see almost every person in a long term 24/7 power exchange relationship will be people in love. Certainly for me and my Master love makes us go to the M/s level of our relationship instead of run from it.

As to your example I could see many reasons. First to me the most common is the person may have wanted a M/s relationship in his mind but the reality of a live relationship is so different then theory and he just was not dominant in that way.

Other reasons that it might not of happen could be the chemistry between you two was not there for the level talked about. What both of you thought in terms of level, rules, rituals, kink, timing, types of power given away were so different then instead of communicating this he just did not even try. Third, there are people apparently that in fact the more they love someone then they cannot have a power exchange relationship with them. So top/bottom things are fun but going to the next level they are just incapable of.

My advice is to just be happy you found out you were just not compatible and look toward the future where the vast majority of people out there need love in order to have a significant power exchange relationship.


_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to Amena)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: love AND M/s - 10/8/2007 9:25:37 AM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Amena

Now, I know there are couples out there who have a M/s relationship AND are madly in love with each other.  I also know there is a school of thought that Masters cannot love their slaves.  This is so terribly confusing for me.  I loved Master more than anything, and I don't understand why he no longer wanted to master me once he fell in love with me.

How can the two co-exist? 



To love you is to respect you for who you are, to treat you the way you need to be treated to be happy with yourself and your life.

quote:


Are there things to look for when getting to know someone that are a tip off that they are one who can't separate love and M/s? 


Yes. Look to your happiness.

Are you happy? Then things are progressing well.

Are you confused? Ask questions and don't stop till you understand what is happening and why.

Are you miserable? Never a good sign of things to come. You've already passed through the confused stage, so this is where its time to let go.

If the manner in which you wish to submit or be enslaved is compatible with his concept of mastery, it will work and you will be happy.

If not ...

Something you might consider, if you haven't already, is making this a topic of discussion during the interview process. Explain that you are seeking a loving M/s relationship where the love does not interfere with the M/s.

But there are no guarantees. I'm sure most, if not all of us, have had experiences where we thought it was going to work, and for one reason or another it didn't.


_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to Amena)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: love AND M/s - 10/8/2007 9:30:39 AM   
WLC053


Posts: 5
Joined: 1/29/2006
Status: offline 		Interesting question, I have been with my slave/wife for 33 years, and yes love has a great part in our life.  She still continues her service and we both delight in her service, she doing and me I receive the bounty.  It has helped us to know where we were going and where we were coming from at all times.  Did we ever stray from the Master/slave oh yes a few times and when we realized it we get right back on track.  So for us "LOVE" worked out ok in our realtionship.

(in reply to toservez)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: love AND M/s - 10/8/2007 9:40:54 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Amena

How can the two co-exist? 

Pretty easily. He loves me. He owns me. I love him. I obey. If I didn't love him, his orders would get a much different reaction from me.
quote:


Are there things to look for when getting to know someone that are a tip off that they are one who can't separate love and M/s? 

Ask questions. Get answers. Unless they just don't know yet, I suspect people are pretty honest about if they want or don't want love in their relationships.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Amena)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: love AND M/s - 10/8/2007 9:51:45 AM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		it is all what you make it huggles

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: love AND M/s - 10/8/2007 10:01:16 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		It is absolutely ridiculous to think that you can, during an "interview" process, project years in the future in anticipation or expectation of D/s evolving into something as arbitrary as "love". Most likely at that point of reference the two of you won't even have the same definition of the term.

The issue is one of combining the sensation with the sensational. Its relatively easy to address and 'do' the sensations. All it takes is two people with compatible desires; one inflicting sensation the other desiring to feel sensation. Degrees of intensity evolve; tools and equipment are picked up along the way. The other aspect of sensation is that, unless its "core" to ones self, you can run into a LOT of "did it - done it" experiences. Much of what comes under the all encompassing umbrella of BDSM, D/s, WIITWD sensations are masturbation fodder and are more attractive as fantasy than they are in reality.

Love, the sensational, requires a mental and emotional involvement that, by its very nature requires evaluation and thought. Those thoughts about the "ideal" love advertised by the media are in direct conflict with the sensations. Thats where the conflict arises. To pierce through that barrier requires a deep knowledge of self and exposing that self to your partner. Dialog and debate between you can allay his fears and your concerns.

There is no requirement to love, and no requirement not to love. The relationship works long term because there is fundamental and unbreach-able (if that's a word) confidence that the generation of sensation, as diametrically in opposition with "love" as it appears", is in harmony with the "sensational" love.

Its possible, but it is not a definite result. Our society's guidelines for "acceptable" norms is ingrained and pervasive. The psycho killer is always a "sadist". The submissive is always pictured as the doormat enabler. The 'role models' as portrayed in movies such as 'The Secretary" and '9 1/2 Weeks' considered "positive" have characters who are neurotic and dysfunctional at best. Having all the dysfunction around us, wrapping your mind around the concept of a loving yet strict and disciplined functioning 24/7 D/s Master/slave relationship doesn't seem possible.

Trust us - it is possible.

(in reply to Amena)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: love AND M/s - 10/8/2007 10:18:36 AM   
mydomsabstrd


Posts: 1775
Joined: 10/5/2007
Status: offline 		wow so glad i found this thread it has given me some tidbits to ponder

_____________________________

damn right
i used to care.....now i take a pill for that
i said shush girl, shush your lips, do the hellen keller and talk with your hips!!!!

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: love AND M/s - 10/8/2007 10:32:37 AM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline 		When a lady seeks me out to explore the potential for a relationship, we engage in a series of discussions which I call "the interview process". She is interviewing me and I am interviewing her.

We ask each other many questions. Part of the process is simply learning the other's 'language'. What does she mean when she speaks of "submission"? What does he mean when he speaks of "love"?

Questions such as these, and the questions that are spawned by the answers, help to reduce the chances of misunderstanding later. Together, through these conversations, we are developing our own 'language' with mutually-understood definitions for the words and concepts we discuss.

These questions and answers also helps to identify compatibility (or the lack thereof). The more concepts we share in common, with similar understandings, the more compatible we are likely to be.

I find the interview process ideal for getting to know someone and letting them get to know me. Incompatibility usually becomes obvious, ending the need for further interest in the potential for a M/s relationship (tho' the potential for friendship may continue to exist, and can be explored for its own merits). Compatibility also tends to become obvious when appropriate, and this eventually leads to a meeting and hopefully, eventually, the M/s relationship.

But certainly by the time of the first meeting there is enough ground-work in place that the meeting is like that between friends interested in seeing if more is possible.

This is how all of my relationships have begun, except for the first one.

I prefer it because it focuses on who you are, what you think, your hopes, your aspirations, your concerns and fears, everything except for your body.

For me, it is through the heart and mind that M/s starts. Where the heart and mind go, so goes the body.


_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: love AND M/s - 10/8/2007 10:46:41 AM   
wildaces


Posts: 13
Joined: 9/29/2007
Status: offline 		Greetings All

i remember i was at a BDSM event. i think it was black rose. might have been one in NY, but anycase. There was a demo going on about humilation.  The Dom and his submissive where putting it on.  He had her in a pool and was asking for other Doms to come up and pee on her while saying things to her.  He then proceeded to tell others. He loves his submissive/wife. Would do anything for her, but he could NOT wrap his mind around humilating her. It was something he just could not do. So he had others do it for him.  This couple was/is very well respected and have been together years.

The reason i bring up the above. Some people, not all have a hard time seperating their nilla love for their partner with the BDSM love they have. When this happens, at times people can not come to terms with having to punish, guide or what have you.  Like the above couple who found a way around this line others have done it. my Owner and i have done it.  Its not easy to keep the two loves seperate while still being who you are but it is do able.  Maybe that was his problem, while he loved you he was not able to treat you like you needed because the nilla side kept getting in the way?

wild

(in reply to mydomsabstrd)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: love AND M/s - 10/8/2007 12:20:27 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Amena
Now, I know there are couples out there who have a M/s relationship AND are madly in love with each other

Yes, indeed.
quote:

I also know there is a school of thought that Masters cannot love their slaves

Just as with ones who do love each other, this is a valid way of being.  Just as I can't dictate that all slaves and Masters MUST LOVE each other, they cannot dictate that all slaves and Masters CANNOT LOVE each other.  It's ok either way.
quote:

This is so terribly confusing for me.  I loved Master more than anything, and I don't understand why he no longer wanted to master me once he fell in love with me

Well, we obviously can't know either not knowing him.  It may have been a shortcoming in him.  Maybe he actually believed that if he loved you, he couldn't "master" you.  All I know is that my own Master couldn't "master" me as He does if He DIDN'T love me like He does.  What works for some obviously does not work for others. 
quote:

How can the two co-exist? 

I don't know how.  I just know they can and do for many of us.  Maybe somehow he thought that "mastering" you had to involve things that he couldn't see co-existing with love (acts of sadism, degradation, etc.)  Some people don't realize that they most assuredly can be part of a love relationship.  Maybe to him, they had to remain separate.  Without knowing him, that's about the best guess I can come up with..................luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to Amena)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: love AND M/s - 10/8/2007 12:55:48 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

I think a Top has to really understand at a gut level that control is what some bottoms need.

If he's there-and not more a nilla with kink-or conflicted by old sterotypes.... Then exressing Domince IS love. When the D/s goes away when love enters-it's more likey you are seeing a mask coming off.


I agree.
l

(in reply to RRafe)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: love AND M/s - 10/8/2007 3:18:28 PM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		One thing I will say is that a year and a half is a very short period of time. It's quite possible that if you had given it longer, it would have swung back the other way.

We've been together for over four years and probably the most vanilla in terms of d/s not in terms of play, occurred during year three when he first moved up here. There was so much to get used to, for both of us, that we concentrated on working on the core of the relationship. Once that was steadier and some other problems had been dealt with, he felt more able to take control.

If it's play we're talking about, that seems to swing back and forth regularly. And neither of us can predict when we'll both be desperate for a hard session and have the time for it, and when one or both has zero interest. But we have enough history together now not to sweat it because we know eventually things do swing back.

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: love AND M/s - 10/8/2007 3:27:55 PM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		I'm a bit confused by posts like this, because for me the more I love somebody the more I want to Dom.   I have to have the emotional connection to want them, to want them to be mine and to want to embrace them fully.   I have to be sexually, physically and emotionally attracted to somebody to fully Dom them for a 24/7 relationship.   I had one hollow relationship that I ended because I wanted the emotional connect from my end.   I felt like there was something missing without it.  This actually made me want to play or scene less and less with them in time.


(in reply to Amena)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: love AND M/s - 10/8/2007 3:37:47 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline 		I totally understand this question. I cannot separate love from D/s or M/s.

My ex-husband loved me very much and I him; we were compatible in so many areas, but our D/s and M/s needs were vastly different and in the end, split us apart. We did try for many years to make it work. He just could not be the Dom or Master I needed.

Then I met my ex-boyfriend who I loved madly and he loved me madly; it was a different type of love than I had with my husband, more passionate and crazy; we connected perfectly on a D/s and M/s level and he Mastered me how I needed to be. However, this kind of love could not mask the vast differences in our personalities or make us compatible in any other way, despite, again, years of trying.

So, it is very difficult to find the right combination of love and M/s, at least in my experience. I loved both men deeply, with very different circumstances and yet, the same sad outcomes.

< Message edited by sexyred1 -- 10/8/2007 3:38:42 PM >

(in reply to Owner4SexSlave)
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RE: love AND M/s - 10/8/2007 4:24:47 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		It's extremely common for people to enjoy the idea of these fantasies, but then be unable to break past their ingrown ideas of right/wrong and find actual fulfillment. 

I always suggest giving it some time and getting to know other couples who ARE capable of playing hard with pain and also in love as role models. 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to sexyred1)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: love AND M/s - 10/8/2007 4:28:07 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		Amena, what you describe I have heard from a number of people.

However it is not true in my case. As I moved from training Fox to owning him to owning him more deeply and completely my love only deepened and it added to my own sense of having authority from him.

It's similar to sadism with me too. To truly let my darkest parts out, I have to have a very deep trust and love in a person.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Amena)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: love AND M/s - 10/8/2007 4:58:47 PM   
Amena


Posts: 8
Joined: 10/7/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks for all your comments.  It really helps to know others understand how I feel.  I didn't end things just because of the lack of D/s.  There were more serious issues.  He had an almost complete unwillingness to really communicate.  He was extrememly inconsistent, in everything, not just in what he said he wanted.  In a way, I guess it was always related to the D/s because I kept trying to follow and submit but just kept being frustrated at every turn.  Those times, in play, when he had me utterly broken, sobbing, and certain I could take not one ounce more of pain were the moments when I felt most connected to him.  It was because I loved him so much that I was able to allow him to play as hard as I did, and it was incredible!  When he stopped playing hard with me, telling me it was because he loved me too much to hurt me, I was crushed and stunned.  For a long time, I believed I had done something wrong, but I finally came to believe him, that I hadn't done anything to make him stop, that his own heart wouldn't let him any more.  The same happened in the everyday interactions.  Kneeling beside him while watching TV became uncomfortable to him because he felt I was better than that.  THAT one really hurt, because it was in those moments that I was most content, and to hear that he felt it was beneath me went against everything I know about myself.  I don't kneel before just anyone, and to feel that kind of joy and contentment at his feet I wanted to be a compliment to him.

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: love AND M/s - 10/8/2007 5:15:06 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		Oh, Amena, that must have hurt you terribly.

Each person is different and what your partner felt is common but apparently not a good match for you.

Sadly as others have said you can't predict this thing. Love grows or not over time and how each person views love or Ds or Ms may change over time too. I'm afraid I don't see an easy way to know if this will happen or not in the future.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Amena)
Profile   Post #: 20
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