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RE: were American native Indians terrorists? - 10/8/2007 6:07:12 PM

Lumus

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If you've never seen the Far Side's take on Roy Rogers, look it up. It's worth it.

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RE: were American native Indians terrorists? - 10/9/2007 3:23:49 AM

LadyEllen

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Agreed Lumus! I'm sure it was The Far Side that produced a greetings card with the Lone Ranger on it, in retirement, reminiscing over his time with Tonto; its only at this point that he learns that "kimo sabi" means "horse's ass".

On the question in the OP - this reveals the big problem about a "war on terror" and the notion of "terrorists". One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, and its only down to which side youre standing as to which is which. And there isnt any moral high ground held by either side that can distinguish the attackers from the attacked either, whichever side happens to occupy each role in any incident. And of course, history is written by those with the capability of writing it, usually determined by victory.

But what's interesting about the north American situation is that one group saw the other as uncivilised savages whose rights were negligible, saw the other as requiring the introduction of their brand of civilisation to save them, would do anything and everything in an underhanded and covert way to achieve their aims without regard to the destruction of innocent lives, and saw it as their destiny to rule, a destiny assured them by their God. Swap God for Allah, and the similarities are plain to see, if the tactics are necessarily updated.

E

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RE: were American native Indians terrorists? - 10/9/2007 3:46:38 AM

favesclava

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has anyone read Bury My Heart At wounded Knee? its a very gripping account of man's inhumanity to man. some people think the Jewish Holocaust was the only one in recent History. it wasnt.

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RE: were American native Indians terrorists? - 10/9/2007 3:55:02 AM

GoddessMine

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Amen to that. Let's see - there was the Armenian genocide from 1915-1917, Cambodian genocide from 1975-1979 under Pol Pot, the Nanking Massacre in the early stages of WWII, and the list goes on and on.

Love,
GM

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RE: were American native Indians terrorists? - 10/9/2007 4:01:49 AM

Absolutemaster

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quote:

were American native Indians terrorists?

Nope. Freedom fighters.

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RE: were American native Indians terrorists? - 10/9/2007 4:37:35 AM

joanus

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I doubt the indians were terrorists seeing as how they were pushed nerely to the point of exstinction by stupid settlers who couldn't see past their own ignorance and bibles. Mass genoside of other races, seems to be a favorite pasttime of white people.

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RE: were American native Indians terrorists? - 10/9/2007 4:44:54 AM

Lashra

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No they were trying to protect their own land and were not terrorists at all. You have to remember history was written by white men pretty much and it is going to reflect their views. Some of their views are as off target as you can get, but it does/has furthered their cause.

~Lashra

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RE: were American native Indians terrorists? - 10/9/2007 5:30:59 AM

pahunkboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Agreed Lumus! I'm sure it was The Far Side that produced a greetings card with the Lone Ranger on it, in retirement, reminiscing over his time with Tonto; its only at this point that he learns that "kimo sabi" means "horse's ass".

On the question in the OP - this reveals the big problem about a "war on terror" and the notion of "terrorists". One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, and its only down to which side youre standing as to which is which. And there isnt any moral high ground held by either side that can distinguish the attackers from the attacked either, whichever side happens to occupy each role in any incident. And of course, history is written by those with the capability of writing it, usually determined by victory.

But what's interesting about the north American situation is that one group saw the other as uncivilised savages whose rights were negligible, saw the other as requiring the introduction of their brand of civilisation to save them, would do anything and everything in an underhanded and covert way to achieve their aims without regard to the destruction of innocent lives, and saw it as their destiny to rule, a destiny assured them by their God. Swap God for Allah, and the similarities are plain to see, if the tactics are necessarily updated.

E

This is PRECISELY correct. This is WHY I posed this question.

The ?longtime posters have a rhythem for my often confusing style of posting.

At any rate; Lady E, thank you! :-)

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RE: were American native Indians terrorists? - 10/9/2007 8:31:29 AM

mydomsabstrd

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did no one learn of the trail of tears in school? i know i did and omg . its sickening to think of all the wrong done to the native americans. the reason the buffalo were nearly wiped out was so that natives would not have a food source. gotta love our govnrment. and yes i do have some native blood in me.

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RE: were American native Indians terrorists? - 10/10/2007 5:59:16 AM

Sanity

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What do they teach in school these days, that there was never any blood shed on this earth prior to the American settlers? England has never seen any wars of conquest, and that everyone in Europe has always been perfectly peaceful... that only the EVIL Americans are worthy of all the spit you can muster, that Native Americans were forever pure and peaceful people who never warred nor conquered amongst themselves, nor warred on innocent white families? That's insanity.

No one has ever been pure, and the ways of our ancestors were the ways of all of our ancestors. To say that Whites or Americans or Christians should feel forever ashamed and be hated for behaving like everyone else did in prior times is the exact same sort of behavior you are all trying to self-righteously condemn, only with the added hypocrisy and ignorance needed in order to try to pull it off.

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RE: were American native Indians terrorists? - 10/10/2007 6:33:39 AM

Gwynvyd

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Every society through out time has had issues yes.. ( big old duh there) but we are talking specificaly about the Native American population and how in a lot of history ( at least when I was growing up ) Native Americans were being written in history books for little Susie and Bobbie to read as those horrible savages who just wouldnt understand that the white settlers were trying to *help* them. ( by taking away land, resources, hunting rights, giving pox ladened blankets ( my family line has a genetic defect now due to that bit there thank you very fucking much.. where I can get chicken pox multiple times anytime I am exposed to it) the fouling of thier lands, and killing off of thier food source. Genocide is also another thing the NA population was faced with. My family (Cherokee) were forced onto The Rez. if you have been to a real Rez.. ( no the glitzy one in the Carolinas does not qualify...) you would know it is no picknic...
for most hunting rights were taken away. In some cases given to the white settlers to come and hunt on the Rez land.

Until the savages were subdued, they were seen as terrorists. My God, how could they not want to be "civilized, good upstanding Christian people?" They didnt fight in rows, or wear bright uniforms... they fought with guerilla war tactics. From the forest, as they could... they didnt bother to speak English either.. how dare they! Well with being foreign, dark skinned, non English speaking.. and the final and last straw.. not Christian~ thier lives certainly were not worth the same as white settlers. They had the audacity to fight back. Many generals, and milita leaders commented on how hard it was to fight the savages due to thier ungentlemanly conduct in war. ~ they didnt have the word terrorist to use then.. but if they had.. they would have used it.

Any time you think to go to a persons home land.. and shake up thier beliefs, and introduce your way of living by craming it down thier throats with an assault rifle with a bible on the end of it, I say it is time to get the fuck out of there.
Leave them to it. When Democracy is anarchy, and you think to convert a nation to a different religion you have got to realize you are not playing with a full deck of cards.

Gwyn,
Native American and proud of her heritage

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RE: were American native Indians terrorists? - 10/10/2007 7:20:15 AM

Sanity

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Would you feel better if the USA had been "settled" by the Incas, Mayans or Aztecs instead? While they were often far more brutal, at least they weren't White, or Christian (spit).

What would a perfect history look like to you... if Islam had come to America, then perhaps you wouldn't have nearly so much hate in your heart.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 10/10/2007 8:05:07 AM >

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RE: were American native Indians terrorists? - 10/10/2007 1:54:08 PM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

What do they teach in school these days, that there was never any blood shed on this earth prior to the American settlers? England has never seen any wars of conquest, and that everyone in Europe has always been perfectly peaceful... that only the EVIL Americans are worthy of all the spit you can muster, that Native Americans were forever pure and peaceful people who never warred nor conquered amongst themselves, nor warred on innocent white families? That's insanity.

No one has ever been pure, and the ways of our ancestors were the ways of all of our ancestors. To say that Whites or Americans or Christians should feel forever ashamed and be hated for behaving like everyone else did in prior times is the exact same sort of behavior you are all trying to self-righteously condemn, only with the added hypocrisy and ignorance needed in order to try to pull it off.

I'm assuming this is a comment on what I posted?

I commented on the subject of the OP. I dont recall saying anywhere in my post that the North American experience is singular in its nature - I merely restricted myself to the subject matter in hand.

Yes, it seems to be human nature to get into conflicts - it has happened and will happen and is happening right now all over the world. No one said anything to the contrary. What I was commenting on was the point which PAH was making I felt, about the similarities between the AQ intention for the west, and the settlers intention for the native American tribes.

But something interesting I find, is that the type of violence and genocide we see in the north American case, is the same as we find in the AQ case and the same we find throughout Europe and exported from Europe for centuries. The common element is a belief in a destiny awarded by a monotheistic religion which grants immunity from damnation for the destruction of the non believer. Where this element is missing, we still find conflict of course - but it lacks the motivation found otherwise which leads to the worst crimes.

E

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RE: were American native Indians terrorists? - 10/10/2007 2:48:31 PM

Gwynvyd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Would you feel better if the USA had been "settled" by the Incas, Mayans or Aztecs instead? While they were often far more brutal, at least they weren't White, or Christian (spit).

What would a perfect history look like to you... if Islam had come to America, then perhaps you wouldn't have nearly so much hate in your heart.

Actualy I would feel better if every one of the white settlers and thier kin got loaded up in boats and shipped back to where ever in the heck it is they came from. Seeing as that is not going to happen what I would like to see is them not having a merry do over in other countries. If you dont know your past, then you are doomed to repeat it.

The good ol U S of A is not a complete fuck up.. but it sure isnt all she could be. I am happy you are a patriotic bull dog, I am.. But not all of us can muster up that same feeling. When we have screwed up, I can look and go, Yep.. that sucked. When we did good, like in WWII and Pres. Truman told the boys going in how important it was to win, that it was a Crusade. They had no idea.. they were thinking of the girls back home, and of other things.. but when they got there~ they realized and knew they had done the right thing. In WWII we kicked butt and took names. It was hard as hell but we did it.

and just an FYI what we call the Americas was settled long before Columbus set foot here, or Cortez, or any one else. They were settled by the peoples of the land, not invaders. A land does not need an invading army to decimate a native population to make it settled. Just ask the folks out in India.... India was "settled" for centuries before the East India Company edged in.. and the Brits had to get in on controling another sector. Back then it wasnt Oil for food, but textiles for food. They didnt boot them out till 1947.
http://pakavenue.com/webdigest/history/pre_independence_002.htm

Personaly I dont like any group of people being subjectated to another group ~ and thier religion, customs, and uniqueness getting exchanged for so called "civility"

I think it is a shame that many Asians are losing touch of thier heritage due to mass conversions, and giving up thier traditons to become more Westernized. Or in China it simply being outlawed to have many free thoughts. ( I have friends who live in China )

I taught a Korean friend of mine how to eat a meal I cooked for him with chopsticks. He had never used them before. It blew my mind.

I am a leave people the hell a lone unless they are starving kinda gal. Then teach them how to be self sufficient, and get your ass back home.

Gwyn

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RE: were American native Indians terrorists? - 10/10/2007 3:05:43 PM

Sanity

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GwynvydPersonaly I dont like any group of people being subjectated to another group ~ and thier religion, customs, and uniqueness getting exchanged for so called "civility"

The problem with that moral position is, "Native Americans" who all migrated here quite viciously subjugated each other with regularity. You're simply saying that because they have another skin color and another religion, Whites are "bad"

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RE: were American native Indians terrorists? - 10/10/2007 3:17:54 PM

texancutie

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Well we were here first anyway. But yes we did fight each other over land, fishing and hunting rights. We also made alliances with other tribes to fight off another tribe. But I think trying to protect one's home and way of life is not terrorism. To my knowledge we didn't fight over religion or religious dogma. I am not including the Mexican or Central American Indians in that blanket statement either.

I am from the Great Lakes region and that is where my tribe and my reservation is. We definitely did fight the Souix and we beat them the time we did. Two of my first cousins are half Sioux and half Chippewa. So we made up long ago..lol.

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RE: were American native Indians terrorists? - 10/10/2007 3:45:47 PM

Sanity

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We have the Shoshone-Bannocks in this area, and how they were treated is shameful, but as with every story there are often many sides. Everyone was ignorant back then, and in many ways - I find it hard to really judge but I do try to learn, and understand points of view.

It's interesting that Salmon used to run up the Snake River here, which is a very large river. Anyway, the Salmon ran the river all the way up to Montana through Southern Idaho and the Shoshone-Bannock tribes depended on the fish runs, and they camped on the river regularly, and they would go to the Camas prairie when it was time to harvest the Camas bulbs, and so on.

In 1901 "the evil white man" built a dam in a canyon on the Snake River, South of Boise - with one of the main reasons for building it being to stop the Salmon runs, and thus disperse the native Americans who gathered for the opportunity to harvest the fish along the river several times per year, every year. They also used the dam to generate electricity, almost a footnote.

That dam is still there, it's the Swan Falls dam... sometimes I go down there to meditate on the past, and to study the hieroglyphs that remain. Here are some pictures of the area:

http://www.blm.gov/nhp/pubs/rewards/2000/images/idriver_big.jpg

http://www.nawwal.org/~mrgoff/photojournal/2000/fallwin/pictures/12-26swanfallsdam.jpg

http://www.gpstrailmaps.com/idaho/SwanFalls/EastPumpStation.jpg

But I like to study all the peoples who inhabited the area around here, including the later settlers - and I try hard to not be too judgmental about them, any of them. I certainly don't hate anyone from that time, I don't self-flagellate over it, I just love the rich history of it all, and I hope that maybe I've learned something here.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 10/10/2007 4:13:49 PM >

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