The points of Abortion (Full Version)

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OrionTheWolf -> The points of Abortion (10/8/2007 8:47:48 PM)

Okay the abortion debate has really disintergrated into just name calling and opinions. So I wanted to see if we couldget a better debate with some structured questions. If you want to vent about abortion please go to the abortion topic. If you want to try and actually explore the points, let's try here.

1) At what point does a fetus become an unborn infant that gains rights as a human?

2) The obvious reason for the majority of abortions is unwanted pregancy. How can the cause be treated?

3) If at a certain stage an unborn infant has rights, should the Mother be forced to carry full term?

4) How can a Mother be forced to carry a baby full term?

5) What happens to the infant if carried to full term, and the Mother does not want it?


There are some pretty intelligent people in this forum, even one's I do not like, so we must be able to have an intelligent debate on the 5 points above if everyone will refrain from flaming and address those five points. If anyone else has some other points they feel should be addressed, could you please quote the original 5 and then number your sequentially?

Orion



MySweetSubmssive -> RE: The points of Abortion (10/8/2007 8:52:07 PM)

It's not a lack of intelligence.  It's a lack of tolerance, and an unwillingness to hear the other person, as well as an unwillingness to be open about one's own questions and uncertainties.  We all put forth our own ideas with certainty, but there are more gray areas than anything ...

MSS



laurell3 -> RE: The points of Abortion (10/8/2007 8:53:48 PM)

what? you're starting this whole thing over and expect different answers than before.....
l



MySweetSubmssive -> RE: The points of Abortion (10/8/2007 8:54:47 PM)

Come on back and try it again a little differently ...

MSS



sexyred1 -> RE: The points of Abortion (10/8/2007 8:56:58 PM)

You MUST be kidding starting this thread.....the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome. I think we more than adequately covered the debate on the 20+page thread.

I am still trying to figure out why we are discussing abortion on this forum, but if you feel it belongs in CASUAL BANTER, then be my guest.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: The points of Abortion (10/8/2007 8:59:19 PM)

Fast reply:

Thanks to those that respected the request.

Just ignore it and go back to the other topic for the flamefest if that is what you like.

Thought some structure may actually help. My mistake for believing in mutual respect and desire to have a true discussion on it.

Orion



sexyred1 -> RE: The points of Abortion (10/8/2007 9:02:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Fast reply:

Thanks to those that respected the request.

Just ignore it and go back to the other topic for the flamefest if that is what you like.

Thought some structure may actually help. My mistake for believing in mutual respect and desire to have a true discussion on it.

Orion


I am sorry you fail to see it is not that we enjoy the flamefest. In fact, I find the entire topic to be quite upsetting. It is not possible to impose structure on an internet message board, no matter how good your intentions are.

This particular topic is too polarized to ever be discussed without emotional issues and without people failing to see each other's points.



DomKen -> RE: The points of Abortion (10/8/2007 9:03:07 PM)

1) After the point where immediate heroic lifesaving care would need to be administered if the fetus was no longer attached. About 8 months or so from what I've seen. Although I can live with the SCOTUS last trimester ruling.

2) Better sex education and better availibility of birth control options for women. Eliminate abstinence only sex ed and require all health insurance to cover basic birth control without deductible or co pay. Encourage the use of Norplant II in teenagers as a simple one visit form of birth control. This might require protecting Wyeth from frivolous lawsuits.

3) No. If the infant is viable then delivery should occur if the woman wants to end the pregnancy otherwise an abortion is the woman's right.

4) Can't be done short of hard restraints in a bed.

5) Adoption placement. Anyone protesting outside an abortion provider should each be prepared to adopt at least one unwanted child regardless of race/sex/health status. Failing to do so might, will, be interpreted as the anti abortionist having some ulterior motive rather than the safety of children. Since no one has ever presented me with such an ulterior motive in the least bit acceptable it would be best not to ask what I think should be done with those protestors.



laurell3 -> RE: The points of Abortion (10/8/2007 9:03:47 PM)

honestly I appreciate your efforts, but given the strong opinions and personalities exhibited before I doubt there's going to be anything different in another thread.
l



dcnovice -> RE: The points of Abortion (10/8/2007 9:22:05 PM)

Orion ---

Having tried (unsuccessfully) to steer the other thread out of the flames, I appreciate your efforts here. So let me take a stab at your questions.

Shalom,

DC

(1) At what point does a fetus become an unborn infant that gains rights as a human?

This is the key question, imho, so I'm chagrined to say that the most honest answer I can offer is "I don't know." Conception seems early. Birth seems late in terms of the baby's development, though it does mark the first time the baby achieves bodily independence.

One traditional benchmark that may be worth revisiting is "quickening," the first time that the mother feels the baby move. It happens at about 18-21 weeks. According to Wikipedia, quickening was legally considered the point at which a baby became an individual.

(2) The obvious reason for the majority of abortions is unwanted pregancy. How can the cause be treated?

I'll defer to public-health experts on this one, but it occurs to my layman's brain that better availability of and education about contraception might help. Is it too radical to consider tax credits to offset the costs of tubal ligations and vascetomies?

(3) If at a certain stage an unborn infant has rights, should the Mother be forced to carry full term?

That's a tough one, given the lack of consensus about when that stage might occur. Roe v. Wade did allow, I believe, that states could prohibit third-trimester abortions on the grounds of the child's rights. Then again, it's been two decades since I read it.

(4) How can a Mother be forced to carry a baby full term?

One of the things that gives me pause about antiabortion legislation is that it would take serious government intervention to enforce. I think Romania, which had strict antiabortion laws, required doctors to report when women were pregnant, and miscarrying meant facing some serious questions. I think the American approach has been to forbid doctors from performing the procedure.

Some abortion-rights advocates argue that antiabortionists have already succeeded in making abortions much harder to get by initimidating clinics (with the result that some women may have to drive hundreds of miles to find a doctor willing to end the pregnancy) and imposing conditions such as 24-hour waiting periods and requirements of the husbnd's consent.

(5) What happens to the infant if carried to full term, and the Mother does not want it?

There are reportedly many Americans eager to adopt.



kdsub -> RE: The points of Abortion (10/8/2007 9:26:23 PM)

How about sex education… if not in schools then doctors offices, or make the proper literature readily available to the parents for education of their children…Actively encourage parents to exercise this important responsibility.

Please stop objections to birth control devices…especially if you want to outlaw abortions… I am not advocating all parents put the girls on birth control at 10 but keep their use a possibility if the parent thinks it is warranted.

Stop just concentrating just on the girls… use the same amount of energy to educate your boys.

The above will help keep the numbers down… now what to do with the ones that are past that point but early enough to qualify for an abortion.

I would like to see a requirement that all women before they can receive an abortion must see a professional impartial councilor that will advise her on her rights and alternatives.

Then make some of the below alternatives available to her.

1.)    A way to continue their education if needed.
2.)    Financial aid for a given period if they choose to have the baby according to their economical level.
3.)    Childcare service aid for the first 3 years of the babies life according the their economical level.
4.)    Job training
5.)    Free government sponsored adoption services... if not a government service then at least help in finding a service as an option.

I think the above ideas if implemented could vastly reduce abortions in America.

Butch



dcnovice -> RE: The points of Abortion (10/8/2007 9:31:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Then make some of the below alternatives available to her.

1.)    A way to continue their education if needed.
2.)    Financial aid for a given period if they choose to have the baby according to their economical level.
3.)    Childcare service aid for the first 3 years of the babies life according the their economical level.
4.)    Job training
5.)    Free government sponsored adoption services... if not a government service then at least help in finding a service as an option.


Interesting ideas, Butch! They would certainly demonstrate true care for both the mother and the baby.



kdsub -> RE: The points of Abortion (10/8/2007 9:40:28 PM)

Thanks Paul

What I hope is it will appeal to all… I believe those For the right to an abortion would be all for the woman having the baby if it did not destroy the mothers future and the baby could have an even chance at a good life.

Those against abortion rights should be for anything that will lower the number of abortions for all reasons.

I don’t think we will ever have a true stable majority for either side so why not work together to at least lower the number of abortions.
Butch



dcnovice -> RE: The points of Abortion (10/8/2007 9:42:08 PM)

quote:

I don’t think we will ever have a true stable majority for either side so why not work together to at least lower the number of abortions. Butch


Agreed. I quite like the pro-choice slogan that abortion should be safe, legal--and rare.



Termyn8or -> RE: The points of Abortion (10/8/2007 10:04:35 PM)

sexyred, no offense intended, but if this bothers you, the next time your mouse pointer gets over this topic, do not click.

I am cutting throught this laundry list of questions to give a real answer.

Abortion is murder, plain and simple. I have a hard time seeing how any human being could do it.

But, if you do not want your kid, neither do I. I know what I think of it and act accordingly, but I am not here to live your life. When you kill someone in a war or a fight, or for some other good reason, it is one thing. When you kill someone so you do not run out of college money, or would no longer be able to work as a hooker or whatever, well you decide what that says about you. I know my opinion, and it is not good. There is no sense in me saying it now.

You either respect human life or you DON'T. Would you kill your little sister because she is eating your food ? You choose. I am not religious at all, but there are things I will not do. I will not kill for profit or comfort, and people seem to have this idea that since it is a fetus, you can just do that.

Try this, have the kid and then strangle it. Go right ahead. If you would do that, well then you would. Now you are defining human as which side of the birth canal you are on. What if your Parents decided you were not worth the trouble ?

See, I really do agree with Ron Paul, but what I don't agree with is making laws about it. Law starts once the kid pops out, according to the law, and that is how is should be. But our personal beliefs are a different thing. We have the decision not to do what is wrong, regardless of it's legality.

Natives in the northern regions, some of them would put their firstborn child out on the ice to freeze to death if it was a girl. Do I agree with this practice ? I really do not care. That is none of my business.

I'll be back I am sure. But the crux of the matter is that people have to figure out what they think is right, and act accordingly. People have to stop worrying about what everybody else is doing and do what is right in their own lives. When we get out of each others' hair the world will be alot more comfortable for all of us.

If someone thousands of miles away kills their child in vitro or out, I have the perfect advice. Keep typing, take another bite of your snadwich, or another drink of whatever. Answer the phone. Add something to your grocery list, whatever.

YOU do what YOU think is right. Really, you have no other obligation in life.

T



OrionTheWolf -> RE: The points of Abortion (10/8/2007 10:09:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

1) At what point does a fetus become an unborn infant that gains rights as a human?

2) The obvious reason for the majority of abortions is unwanted pregancy. How can the cause be treated?

3) If at a certain stage an unborn infant has rights, should the Mother be forced to carry full term?

4) How can a Mother be forced to carry a baby full term?

5) What happens to the infant if carried to full term, and the Mother does not want it?



Thanks to those that are staying on track.

1) Looking at the data that I have researched, I believe it should be 24 weeks. This is the point of "limit of viability". Some may say 22 weeks because that is approx the time of the youngest premie to survive, with the actual time being 21 weeks and 5 days. At 24 weeks the chance of survival is 50/50.

2) There has to be better education on this. Parents are not obviously doing it, and religion tries to surpress it. Since I consider unwanted pregnancies to be at epidemic proportions, it is incumbant upon the government to do something, for public health reasons. An extensive three stage program, beginning it 6th grade, then at 8th grade and then at 10th grade, for the education. This is based upon when sexual activity is likely to occur, and the peaks of increase. This needs to be followed up with birth control that should be covered under all insurance, and in the case of those without insurance, available at health clinics without a charge.

3) If an unborn child can live out of the mothers womb at a certain age, and the Mother wishes to abort, then she should be given the option of C-section or carry to full term. If that child is considered a human at a certain point, and the Mother terminates, it is a homicide. This may sound callous, but the right to life has to be given at a certain point and terminating the right to life is homocide.

4) I have no clue on this one. facilities that not only include medical treatment but counciling at the bare minimum.

5) This is where society needs to step up. For all the pro-lifers, this would be your opportunity to adopt and raise the child. Not to mention there are many who wish to adopt.

Number 2 is the most critical in my opinion, as unwanted pregancy is the cause of abortion.

Orion



OrionTheWolf -> RE: The points of Abortion (10/8/2007 10:11:23 PM)

I would like to add, if we just ignore those that will not address the points, maybe they will get tired and go away.

Orion



dcnovice -> RE: The points of Abortion (10/8/2007 10:12:28 PM)

quote:

what I don't agree with is making laws about it


T, here you have me confused. If you truly believe that abortion is murder, why don't you think there should be laws against it?



MySweetSubmssive -> RE: The points of Abortion (10/8/2007 10:24:12 PM)

I think this issue is much larger than 5 questions -- and I know you do as well, Orion.  It's not something that we can drive toward consensus on.  It's not a wholly (or even primarily) intellectual problem. 

I'm interested in solutions, but I'm also interested in why people think and believe what they do.  It's very easy to say "abortion is murder" or "my body, my choice."  It's less easy to look at the grey area and for each person to look at where their own beliefs seem to break down.  This is where the heart (double entendre intended) of the matter is.  This is where the exciting questions are.

MSS



Lucylastic -> RE: The points of Abortion (10/8/2007 10:54:22 PM)

Thank you Orion, Im actually going to respond to your post kind of,.... I have read and inwardly digested the posts on the other board, Ive felt angry with some positions, sad on others, but my adding my emotion isnt going to get what I wanted to say out. 
Short background... Ive had seven pregnancies *that Im aware of* out of those seven I was on birth control for all.. I had one stillborn (24 weeks), three alive and active children, two miscarriages (before 8 weeks) and one ectopic pregnancy which happened after  I had had my tubes tied.
OK my point is Level mentioned that from 1973  to 1998, more than 40 million fetuses were aborted in the US, thats a hell of a lot of unplanned  pregnancies,  but I look at myself and I think all of my pregnancies, all of them were unplanned, and yet I havent had to make that decision about abortion ...let alone had one.......I knowwwww Im not the only woman out there with a similar story.
Has anyone any reliable statistics on how many pregnancies in that period of time were unplanned?  due to lack of birthcontrol/management that works.....  I doubt it but it must be enormous.
And I dont see the numbers changing until there are forms of birth control out there that will work 100% without causing other health problems to the woman.....maybe we should snip all the boys when they are born, offering them a free reversal when they are ready to have childrren? can you imagine what an uproar that would cause? oh my.and of course Im being facetious, I couldnt bear to have my boys circumcised let alone have their lil well you know, snippped
Of course there is always abstinence, but Im sorry if we all told our spouses/sig others we could only have sex to produce children...nah thats never ever going to work and why should it, we are obviously hard wired for procreation, but with that  we are also hard wired for sensation and pleasure from the act leading up to it.... .
But there has to be a better alternative to all the mental pain, physical situations and other assorted ills caused by unplanned  pregnancies... the simple fact is that birth control is hardly effective. I dont have an answer to your questions, only personal ones, that are clouded by experience and emotion... hardly subjective...but the  fact is that in way  toooo  many cases birth control does NOT work, for whatever reason.... the only safe sex is no sex, and by the time I get to the point of having no sex, I hope I will be far to old to actually be able to get pregnant.
heh, maybe a lil personal emotion in there, but what the hell. ..im not sure if it came out right, it seems to ramble a bit, but thanks for reading this far :)
Just in case anyone cares, Im prochoice, until each pregnancy is wanted, healthy,  loved and able to be provided for. I think I will be prochoice for at least the rest of my life. Unfortunately.
just my POV
Lucy
Edited cos Im a doofus and cant spell check at 2am
edited to add that you all snuck in before me.... nice to see some opinions on it
ill hush now
gnite



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