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Psychological submission vs. Physical submission - 6/30/2004 5:50:52 AM   
subinfyniti


Posts: 18
Joined: 6/10/2004
Status: offline 		Thoughts to ponder...... do we all get the same " warm, fuzzy feeling" from the psychological submission as we do from the physical submission?
Afterall, some of us submit " on line" and derive great pleasure from it, possibly often never want anything more. Long distant relationships are based muchly on psychological submission. The feel of physical submission......the touch, the feel, the words, the sounds.
Personally for me, there needs to be a balance of both. I need the feel of the mental submission along with the feel of the touch. Others seem to choose one or the other....or...do those who choose just " settle"?
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RE: Psychological submission vs. Physical submission - 6/30/2004 7:26:29 AM   
dixiedumpling


Posts: 456
Joined: 5/10/2004
From: southeast Mississippi
Status: offline 		I've done both. The written word can bring a warm rush of excitement or humiliation the same as the spoken word can. However, the problem with online, in my experience, is that the Dom will tell the sub to do this or that to herself. Kind of weird. It's my hand doing the inflicting of pain and there's a limit to how hard you'll pinch yourself. Also, They don't know for sure if you're doing those things or just saying that you are. I prefer r/l to online, although online is probably much safer to one's body.

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dixiedumpling

My mind is no place to play alone. Anna Pigeon as written by Nevada Barr

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RE: Psychological submission vs. Physical submission - 6/30/2004 8:33:31 AM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline 		I've done both also. I was trained online and took it very seriously. Online only works if you actually do all that your Dom asks. Honesty is just as important online as in r/l. Personally i think the psychological side plays a larger role than the physical side. I shed tears and got moody when i knew i hadn't pleased my online Dom, it was very real to me, but He was very good at it too. He set up some wonderful scenes we played out in the fantasy world and i loved it. A good imagination helps a lot. He also had me do things in r/l that a r/l dom might ask you to do, like dress a certain way to go out, wear my plug when i go somewhere, etc. Occasionally he dommed me over the phone when i was out, asking me to do thing in public that i wouldn't normally do. If it hadn't been for Him i would still be a frustrated bored wifey.

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proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


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RE: Psychological submission vs. Physical submission - 6/30/2004 1:39:41 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		If you have to be tied to submit(play) whatever you'd like to call it. Are you truly submitting?

My ex Dom used to tell me the only true submission is when you tell your submissive to do something and they do it without any bonds but the mental ones. That is when you have a submissive and not before. To be told to hold your hands together above your head. Not to move them no matter what. Whether it be pain. Or anything.
Unfortunately most do not believe this way. I do. Then again that may be because of my roots with him. I have'nt polled people I know recently but the last time I did out of all the people I interact with on a normal basis. Munches..parties..etc. Most had never even gotten to the point of submission.
I've never tried any sort of Domination online. To me online serves a very important purpose because you are seeing the soul of the person you are communicating with. You can see them for who they are if you truly desire to. There is no physical contact so nothing to get in the way of the true self. I don't believe anything online would work for me beyond a discussion.

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RE: Psychological submission vs. Physical submission - 6/30/2004 1:56:35 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline
quote:

To be told to hold your hands together above your head. Not to move them no matter what. Whether it be pain. Or anything.


Have you seen the movie "The Secretary"? the scene where she sits in one position with her hands on the table for days is what you describe I believe.

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proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


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RE: Psychological submission vs. Physical submission - 6/30/2004 2:57:25 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Yep, I saw that movie. I was one of the only ones who thought it really didn't portray the lifestyle in a good light.
Then again, we all are different and we all have different views on things.

I just don't feel true domination happens until you have psychological control. In that movie he did end up earning it. Yet at the same time, to me he was developing a slave. Give the movie a different light. What if it were real life and instead of the happy ending. Reality struck and just as it was ending he passed on? What would have become of her then?

I mix reality with everything. I do realize the movie was designed for nothing but entertainment although I would have liked some real life in it too.

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RE: Psychological submission vs. Physical submission - 6/30/2004 3:47:18 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline
quote:

What if it were real life and instead of the happy ending. Reality struck and just as it was ending he passed on? What would have become of her then?


My guess is she would have gone back to her cutting practices and her old life, not a happy scenario.

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proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


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RE: Psychological submission vs. Physical submission - 6/30/2004 4:24:27 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		You've got it Proudsub, now you know why I didn't care for the movie.

My take on the whole movie was. An abuser meets an unstable young woman.
Realizes he can abuse her so he does. Now, I have always read and learned about the lifestyle a Dom helps you to be a better person. For yourself, and only yourself, not for him.

The scene you remember her sitting at the table for days on end. Even pee'd herself. Abused her more. She lacked the self esteem to stand up for herself. How many articles have you seen and heard about people on airplanes getting bloodclots and dying? Same difference. Sitting in one place, for hours and days on end.

He tells her to stop the cutting. She does but not for herself but for him. No growth there at all. She has low self esteem, any attention is good attention. She falls for him as anybody would in that situation.

Here we go abuser and slave. Happily married after.

That was my take on the movie. I am extremely happy we didn't pay to see it until it came out on video. I do know others opinions differ totally. I even know a newbie sub psychologist who absolutely fell in love with the movie.

I do agree it was psychological abuse.

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RE: Psychological submission vs. Physical submission - 6/30/2004 5:21:33 PM   
aliljaded1


Posts: 121
Joined: 6/20/2004
Status: offline 		i thought that movie was OUTSTANDING.. i thought it was really h\cool how they found each other and He was what she really needed. noOne else "felt" the same. i really liked it when she put the worm in his note just to be a brat and get a re-action... Phychological submission is the very best kind (imho) soft smiles
warm regards, jade

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RE: Psychological submission vs. Physical submission - 6/30/2004 8:07:29 PM   
Thanatosian


Posts: 765
Joined: 5/10/2004
From: New Castle, PA
Status: offline 		I personally like both kinds of play - physical and psychological - and mixing them at the same time

I will admit that it seems to be a 'deeper' kind of play the more psychological/menta is thrown into the mix - and like sub4hire I find the submission without the physical to be 'truer' and 'purer' (dont like those word choices but all I can think of at the moment - hence the quotes around them)
I will, however, state that while I have done online domination, it does not compare in the least with the real thing - and while both parties can, indeed, derive great pleasure from it, it is, IMX,mainly pleasure derived due entirely to stimulation of our largest sexual organ, the brain - or, in other words, fantasy

now, moving on to The Secretary, while I too was a bit unconcerted by the fact that they took a self abuser to turn into the 'slave', I do think it did show the lifestyle in a more positive light than not - as something that transpires between people who are not your stereotypical 'oh my god they actually do that???????' people - and overall enjoyed the movie very much, but thats just me personally

Apply usual caveats here

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RE: Psychological submission vs. Physical submission - 7/1/2004 12:48:17 AM   
dragonofjapan


Posts: 91
Joined: 6/30/2004
Status: offline 		How do I know where my mind ends and the "physical" begins. I have seen this discussion for a while in different places and while I love to imagine I am some great noble beast, the whole physical/mental sort of has the stench of "spiritual nazism" to it.

When I tie my subs, I do this as a kindness, to allow them to not worry and open themselves to the whip. To feel free to yank and scream if they want. Yes, I feel a much stronger mental rush when lifting a sub by her nipples while making her hold her hands behind her back, or making her hold her legs open for my whip.

I certainly love on line because it allows you to meet in the mind and not have the physical(sexual) be in the way, espeically during the beginning of getting to know one another. However, I find my relationships which came about by serendipity have a rather magical quality about them.

As for the Secretary, I found the movie disappointing. First, the guy was more a wannabe than an abuser, or someone just totally unsure of his level of permission. Remember, when she comes in the room and puts her elbows on the desk the second time?, guy was clueless or afraid.

I found the end a bit absurd, some lawyer all wrapped up in his lawyer image is going to leave some girl in a wedding dress in his office for three days? Where did he go for those 3 days? Who called the news? Some girl holds a vigil in a lawyer's office and there are no mental institutions? and the whole "secretary wanted" sign was a bit "B movie".

Great concept, but they needed a few more drafts on the script before they made that one. I could have gone for a nice riding crop and her takes her home after they have gotten clear about the relationship.

But hell I am perhaps less than typical dominant, I cry at mushy movies, am wildly romantic, but love training women in the Art of Service which can be quite "dynamic" in its process.

This young lady was one of my lovers in Japan.

Zip, Dragonmaster

Heaven on Earth
Service, Healing, Empathy

He who rules truly serves
She who serves truly rules

Life is not measured by the breaths we take,
but by the things which take our breath away

Honor is not making good choices,
it is dealing with the consequences.

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RE: Psychological submission vs. Physical submission - 7/1/2004 7:17:20 AM   
Sundew02


Posts: 457
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		From my side and only my opinion, online is good to learn the nature of the one you plan to meet. Yes, I enjoy the mental side of D/s as much, if not more than the physical. BUT I want to be there to see, hear, and run my hands over the quivering flesh. This thing I type on is nice and I do enjoy the chats and discussions it makes available to me, but it is no subsitute for real life. As to the movie, as we are still considered deviant, any attention drawn to us is less than welcomed. And the fact that the creators chose a female with a known psychiatric problem to portray the s side makes it even less desireable to once again put D/s in the vanilla limelight. Sundew

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RE: Psychological submission vs. Physical submission - 7/1/2004 6:50:07 PM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline
quote:

First, the guy was more a wannabe than an abuser, or someone just totally unsure of his level of permission. Remember, when she comes in the room and puts her elbows on the desk the second time?, guy was clueless or afraid.


M. Oolong-

I actually saw the character as a man so devastated by the loss of all he had invested in his prior slave that he feared going there again, and needed to see that she was in fact, truely commited to him.

I thought it was one of the realer facets of the film.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

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RE: Psychological submission vs. Physical submission - 7/5/2004 9:56:07 AM   
ThornBlood


Posts: 91
Joined: 3/5/2004
Status: offline 		I actually prefer the psychological submission. The spoken and/or the typed word can be very powerful. But only when the other wants to submit.

Wouldn't you have already have submitted psychologically before you submit physically?

I just can't imagine spanking somebody for the sheer fun of it. Or the sub being spanked or flogged. I already have to be in their mind. Just Me I guess. I know that some can do that and no offense to anybody that can. And I've definitely seen it at play parties when another Dom will let a more experience Dom play with a sub. But even there, won't there be a bit of psychological submission going on as the session rolls on? (Don't know what goes on in the submissives mind at that time).


Never saw the movie.. Dunno if I'm going to now though with the mixed reviews..lol

As for online vs. real.. sometimes distance plays a factor, especially when they are living in different countries. Time and life doesn't allow you to meet everyone. It's all ya get. I've known several people for years that I haven't met yet. That is slowly changing as I get the chance to visit some and a few are coming here. But still there are a few that I might never meet. And I feel that My life would be poorer for not ever getting to know them. Doesn't matter that I won't ever see them for real.

Seems to be about three topics already... Sheesh... This thread better not go on very long.

Smiles and Laffs,
John

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RE: Psychological submission vs. Physical submission - 7/7/2004 5:37:20 AM   
subinfyniti


Posts: 18
Joined: 6/10/2004
Status: offline 		I found the movie The Secretary " fun"..... I have heard so many reviews since my viewing of it that I guess it will never go down as one of the Top Ten Best Films

For me, I had always felt safe talking to someone " on-line" though all that "cyber" anything including sex and submission did not work for me. I too would feel silly doing anything physical to myself. I don't think being told over the phone by someone I never met would work for me either. Never experienced it.
I admit I am quite the "touchy-feely" submissive. For me, I need the actual physical person in the same room. There is something incredibly exhilerating about seeing a face along with hearing the voice and yes, feeling the touch. Ahhhhh, the touch
Just my opinion...peace

infyniti

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RE: Psychological submission vs. Physical submission - 7/18/2004 9:17:22 AM   
Gaulthier


Posts: 4
Joined: 7/9/2004
Status: offline 		My first serious girlfriend, Susan, and the first woman I start to explore my interest in D/s with entered into a formal contractual D/s relationship with a couple in Phoenix. The first thing they did to her was ritually shave all her hair off. She knew that this would be a difficult thing for her but she had no idea of the impact on her of such an act of surrender.

If you consider it body modification, it is the most superficial but the most emotionally impactful especially in our culture. She said it was like going into the army or a new religious order or even prison. It was a radical departure from who she knew herself to be even though she had been pursuing her interest in D/s for almost 20 years. When she first saw herself she resembled one of those Collaborators punished by Dutch resistance from World War II. Further, she told me she had never felt so vulnerable or without identity and that is was both a scary and liberating feeling. To further augment this sense of shifting identities her new owners purchased an array of wigs so they could have a redhead or brunette or blonde or blue haired slave.

Susan works as a teacher so they shaved her at the beginning of summer. By fall she did have a very stylish new short coiffure for the new school year. She said the whole experience was very emotional and humbling. In deference to me, her first Dominant, she did send me a lock of her hair. At least I possess a part of her.

I would be interested in people's comments and perspectives and experiences, both of submissives' and Dominants', on the ritual shaving of a submissive.


G de W

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RE: Psychological submission vs. Physical submission - 7/18/2004 9:26:55 AM   
SherriA


Posts: 544
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaulthier
I would be interested in people's comments and perspectives and experiences, both of submissives' and Dominants', on the ritual shaving of a submissive.


That's scary shit, for me. I can't imagine letting anyone shave my hair off (my head ain't pretty enough to go bare!). I don't know anyone who has done it in the manner you've talked about, but I do know someone who had her head shaved as a punishment. I'd probably have ended the relationship rather than go through with it.

Having my head shaved would be way too much for my ego to bear, I think. I even get pissy when partners tell me not to cut my hair, but since it's usually followed by compliments about how much they enjoy playing with it, etc, it's easier for me to get my head around.

To be asked to shave my head as a sign of commitment or devotion or whatever would probably send me running. I have lots of respect for people who are willing to do something so edgy (edgy for me at least), but it's not somewhere I could go, I don't think. I'm just way too vain about my hair (even though I bitch about it constantly).

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Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

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RE: Psychological submission vs. Physical submission - 7/22/2004 2:34:08 PM   
JinCap


Posts: 10
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline 		Without psychological submission, i would not be able to be submissive ... we live miles and miles apart.

we've had great scenes via IM, but i agree w/other poster - there is only so hard you can pinch yourself, even if you want to!

jin

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RE: Psychological submission vs. Physical submission - 7/27/2004 8:25:35 PM   
DTrance


Posts: 2
Joined: 7/26/2004
Status: offline 		I think I am in the minority here.
I am a Dom with not much physical experience. I am not really into that. I'm a pure psychological Dom. I use hypnosis in My scenes.
I had a sub who lived all the way across the country whom I never met other than phone or internet. Our relationship is purely pyschological. I never had to have her spank herself or whatever because she was under hypnotic control to feel something whenever I commanded her to. She could even orgasm on command.
What I'm leading up to is this. I think this whole psychological vs physical is like anything else: it differs between people in a range of pure psychological and pure physical.
For instance, many people into BDSM I've met scoff at My use of hypnosis as a Dom-style, telling Me I am not a true Dom simply because I've never used a whip.
I just think that those people are more into the doing the physical, and by doing the physical, the psychological submission will follow. There are people like Me who are the opposet. Do the psychological and the physical submission will follow. Everyone else is in the middle, leaning one way or another within this range.
One brings on the other. The only real difference is the starting point.

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RE: Psychological submission vs. Physical submission - 7/28/2004 3:32:05 AM   
iwillserveu


Posts: 1633
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I can't comment on a movie I did not see. (any one see Dodgeball? "Good throw by the submissive!")

Anyway, a kiss on the cheek and holding a door for her sent me into paroxysms of joy. Yes they are different than if she used a strap-on, but no less "warm and fuzzy."

_____________________________

When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

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