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RE: A hole in the theory of the global economy. - 10/11/2007 11:52:02 PM

popeye1250

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Meat, nobody cares about "carbon credits."
Ask anyone who's been to India, China or Brazil and the U.S. who the biggest poluter is.
A neighbors son just returned from Brazil in Sept and he said the air here is crystal clear compared to Sao Paulo.
And they say Brazil is pristine compared to China.

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RE: A hole in the theory of the global economy. - 10/12/2007 1:45:40 AM

seeksfemslave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Clearly poster you have no idea how technically advanced is a TV system. Transmission/Reception.

Excellent point,

I'm not convinced it's an excellent point.
I don't know who posted that, but maybe he/she meant that televisions are yesteryear's products; concentrate on the high value adding products over the horizon, i.e. in the next 10/20 years, to achieve a competitive advantage: strategy is in the future, not the past.

Yesteryears products ?
Whacking great screens and state of the art digital TV being rolled out right under your nose. Plenty of added value there. Both in the basic designs of the sytem itself and in the automated machinery used in production.
Rest my case m'lud.

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Post #: 62

RE: A hole in the theory of the global economy. - 10/12/2007 1:58:53 AM

Politesub53

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Meat, the figures quoted for China in the chart you showed was from 1994. I looked at a chart yesterday which showed the USA at 22% and China at 18% of the worlds total emissions. Sooner or later China will show figures way above everyone else.

We need to remember just how bad CO2 emmisions used to be, especially in the cities, anyone who has seen a London Smog, or equivelent will no what i mean. There are cleaner products available, such as solar panels, at present though these fail to be cost effective. The way to go for cheaper power sources is nuclear power stations, but i suspect thats too much of a hot potato for governments to consider.

You can bet your life that when a cheaper production source than China comes along, we will all be talking about that and not China.

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Post #: 63

RE: A hole in the theory of the global economy. - 10/12/2007 2:20:11 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Meat, the figures quoted for China in the chart you showed was from 1994. I looked at a chart yesterday which showed the USA at 22% and China at 18% of the worlds total emissions. Sooner or later China will show figures way above everyone else.

We need to remember just how bad CO2 emmisions used to be, especially in the cities, anyone who has seen a London Smog, or equivelent will no what i mean. There are cleaner products available, such as solar panels, at present though these fail to be cost effective. The way to go for cheaper power sources is nuclear power stations, but i suspect thats too much of a hot potato for governments to consider.

You can bet your life that when a cheaper production source than China comes along, we will all be talking about that and not China.

True politesub but the US and the west has been spewing industrial pollutants into the atmosphere for 150 years where China hasn't. Also China has something like 22% of the world population, the US 5%. The current climate problem is a making of the west and not the developing countries so it should be the west that leads the way in cleaning up.

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Post #: 64

RE: A hole in the theory of the global economy. - 10/12/2007 2:22:50 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Meat, nobody cares about "carbon credits."
Ask anyone who's been to India, China or Brazil and the U.S. who the biggest poluter is.
A neighbors son just returned from Brazil in Sept and he said the air here is crystal clear compared to Sao Paulo.
And they say Brazil is pristine compared to China.

You don't notice carbon dioxide in the atmosphere popeye, it is clean in every way other than it causes climate change. The US is spewing vast amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere everyday and you won't notice it. Until you have a Katrina or some other phenomenon that wakes you up to the fact something is wrong.

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Post #: 65

RE: A hole in the theory of the global economy. - 10/12/2007 3:45:35 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

True politesub but the US and the west has been spewing industrial pollutants into the atmosphere for 150 years where China hasn't. Also China has something like 22% of the world population, the US 5%. The current climate problem is a making of the west and not the developing countries so it should be the west that leads the way in cleaning up.

I'm not sure I understand what youre saying here? Are you saying that to make it fair, we should allow the Chinese et al to pollute the Earth for another 150 years before we do anything?

In any case, the point is that our nations are suffering from all this outsourced production economically - though a few are getting rich, the overall sum total as I analyse it suggests that outsourcing costs us a fortune collectively.

Whilst this fits well into the Anglo Saxon model of economics - "greed is good", "there is no such thing as society" etc, it is not what I want for my country.

E

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RE: A hole in the theory of the global economy. - 10/12/2007 3:52:26 AM

pahunkboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

True politesub but the US and the west has been spewing industrial pollutants into the atmosphere for 150 years where China hasn't. Also China has something like 22% of the world population, the US 5%. The current climate problem is a making of the west and not the developing countries so it should be the west that leads the way in cleaning up.

I'm not sure I understand what youre saying here? Are you saying that to make it fair, we should allow the Chinese et al to pollute the Earth for another 150 years before we do anything?

In any case, the point is that our nations are suffering from all this outsourced production economically - though a few are getting rich, the overall sum total as I analyse it suggests that outsourcing costs us a fortune collectively.

Whilst this fits well into the Anglo Saxon model of economics - "greed is good", "there is no such thing as society" etc, it is not what I want for my country.

E

Precisely! Some are surprised of backlash- when in fact when the feast is not shared-sooner or later the peasants will revolt. Welcome to later,

As Lady E said in a prior post; we have more money but less wealth.

The elite few are making tons of cash off of the status quo! The peons get crums and cant hardly bankrupt even. So it becomes criminal by default.

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Post #: 67

RE: A hole in the theory of the global economy. - 10/12/2007 8:52:39 AM

EPGAH

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Isn't it interesting: America is greedy, America is the giant polluter, America is the Great Satan...
BUT we are the only country with even a nominal Environmental Protection Agency, and our birth-rates are SUSTAINABLE (Although birth-control in America is regulated by greed, not Federal fiat...Still, if it weren't for illegal immigration/invasion, our population-growth would be at or near zero)!
In a recent anti-pollution summit, Africa said that they would continue to increase their industry, they wanted to be like AMERICA, and that industrial progress is their RIGHT! They try to become like us, even though they CLAIM they hate what we've become!
Are we supposed to let the international version of "white guilt" force us into NOT regulating the rest of the world's pollution? Yes, the less-evolved countries are where we were 150-200 years ago, but they can buy (or steal, they're good at that) our cleaner manufacturing technologies!
As to outsourcing, though, as long as the money keeps pouring out of America, it doesn't necessarily generate wealth in the other countries, it props up their regimes, and allows them to claim their ways MUST be right, since there is so much money pouring in...But it doesn't go for education, law-enforcement, or education....It seems to simply evaporate, like pouring one bottle of water into the desert.
From a "social" or "moral" standpoint, then, Americans should try to avoid these foreign industries, so that when the money stops, they are FORCED to restructure their countries or watch their countries cease to exist...Yes, the process will be painful, but it's ok, the ones who can afford it will just flee to America, who MUST let them in, or we're racist, Nazi, Fascist bigots, right?
America may or may not be astride the world like a colossus, but we're being very overpermissive "parents" to the lesser countries. We have FAR too generous of rules, compared to nearly all of our trading-partners. Our patents have to go through foreign couts (Think Microsoft vs. EU--as much as I dislike Microsoft's mega-monopoly, AMERICA should be dictating terms of their humbling, not Europe--who may or may not steal the technology for themselves!) Japan doesn't respect American patents for 10 years, during which time anyone can make their own version of the same technology. More interestingly, Japan's patents apply not only to the invention you make, but also to anything DERIVED from it! Which means, therefore, Japan should be paying us an assload of royalties, since most of their electronic industry is based off OUR transistor and IC technology? (Read "Rising Sun", good book about Japan's unfair technology and trade practices, disguised with a thin story about a murder of a whore by Japanese "businessmen"--and attempted coverup because America doesn't want to embarrass the other countries!)
So basically, we're not just outsourcing ideas, we're GIVING away technology and money, and expecting other countries to play nice too...We give them our money and our ideas, they give us their poverty! At best, this is naive, and at worst, suicidally stupid!

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RE: A hole in the theory of the global economy. - 10/12/2007 10:44:10 AM

Politesub53

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America isnt the only country with EPA`s Ireland and the UK both have them already. Im not sure about anywhere else. As for Microsoft, if you say that America should have fined them, and not the EU, then should the same work in reverse ? British Airways got a hefty fine in the US just a short time ago.

If the US and EU want to trade with each other, then we need to be prepared to obey trading laws, of the countries we trade in. As for stealing technology, that works both ways too.

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RE: A hole in the theory of the global economy. - 10/12/2007 10:51:59 AM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Meat, nobody cares about "carbon credits."
Ask anyone who's been to India, China or Brazil and the U.S. who the biggest poluter is.
A neighbors son just returned from Brazil in Sept and he said the air here is crystal clear compared to Sao Paulo.
And they say Brazil is pristine compared to China.

You don't notice carbon dioxide in the atmosphere popeye, it is clean in every way other than it causes climate change. The US is spewing vast amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere everyday and you won't notice it. Until you have a Katrina or some other phenomenon that wakes you up to the fact something is wrong.

Meat, another good reason to buy "Made in the U.S.A."

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RE: A hole in the theory of the global economy. - 10/12/2007 11:12:08 AM

Griswold

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Well, I don't see why American companies that move their operations overseas should still expect access to "our" markets.
There is such a thing called "ownership."

Indeed. There's also something called "Shareholders". Corporations do what their shareholders demand of them; make a profit. In many cases, that requires that the company seeks out the lowest cost production facility. All too often, that ain't here.

Your argument that the big bad corporation is the enemy falls on deaf ears, because the big bad corporation is every single guy or gal all over the country (very likely you if you own a mutual fund or a 401k).

That's real big in capitalism!

Indeed it is. In fact it's even real big in life at home.

If you earn $5,000.00 a month and you're spending $7,000.00, I certainly hope for your sake that you abruptly review your expenses, and even though you may earnestly desire to buy American (or union, or what have you), I hope that you, like these awful big bad mean corporations, rapidly adjust your purchasing habits to in some fashion align them with your income, because without such prudence and good governance, you will soon be in the poor house, bankrupt, and in the case of these horrid monster capitalists, you'll be laying people off of their jobs.

At which point every newspaper will be crying "why didn't they adjust their costs? Why did they let these things get so out of hand??? They knew about this YEARS ago!!! Those bastards...all they cared about was money."

Indeed, coporations largely can't win in this discussion. If they don't cut their costs, they're assholes. If they do, they're assholes.

The people who organised and signed all these "free trade" deals never consulted with the American People about them!

Au Contraire mes amis. They consulted with every one of us. It's called voting. Until you're eager enough or are willing to take the time to move to Washington DC and personally make those laws, you arbitrarily give that authority to those you voted in (or by your lack of vote, caused others to get voted in).

They hired lobbyists from "K" street in D.C. and pressured "our" Congress to pass them.

Those are the same lobbyists that created Medicare, Medicaid, SSI adjustments, all things many benefit from. A lobbyist isn't inherently bad, nor are people who speed inherently bad. But suddenly, when somebody dies....now there's hell to pay.

Someone said it well a long time ago..."A recession is when the economy is bad for your neighbor....a depression is when the economy is bad for you".

When those lobbyists on K street fend for YOUR passions...they wear a white hat. Not so when they fend for those you'd like to see taking the bus.

Voting, getting involved in the system, and doing more than simply making noise and waving your arms at the machine, is the only way to get the resolution you desire.

How can America "speak with one voice" if they cut out 299,950,000 people?

They didn't....you ceded your voice to them under the auspices of your vote. If you don't care for the voice they're using, raise yours enough to be heard but....think through your arguments first Popeye. Your points are important and every one of them is valid, but you have yet to use facts to make them.

Again, corruption.

(Yeah....so, this is news?)

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RE: A hole in the theory of the global economy. - 10/12/2007 11:17:08 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Meat, nobody cares about "carbon credits."
Ask anyone who's been to India, China or Brazil and the U.S. who the biggest poluter is.
A neighbors son just returned from Brazil in Sept and he said the air here is crystal clear compared to Sao Paulo.
And they say Brazil is pristine compared to China.

You don't notice carbon dioxide in the atmosphere popeye, it is clean in every way other than it causes climate change. The US is spewing vast amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere everyday and you won't notice it. Until you have a Katrina or some other phenomenon that wakes you up to the fact something is wrong.

Meat, another good reason to buy "Made in the U.S.A."

Well yes but most Americans don't want to pay the high cost of products that were made in America, they chose the outsourced ones which is why companies increasingly outsource. I remember in Britain, we had this buy British fiadco in the 70s but the reality eventually dawns, companies have to compete internationally or go under.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/12/2007 11:19:14 AM >

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RE: A hole in the theory of the global economy. - 9/15/2008 6:35:56 PM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold

Sam, all exceptional points (and I suspect you meant "experiential" as opposed to "experimental"), but since we can't stop China from cranking up polluting machines (that we aren't allowed to manufacture...using), since we can't apparently stop them from stealing our ideas and patented processes, and since even after all that, Americans happily purchase these products with nothing more than a drop of their checkbooks...the obvious answer, and the argument that has been made thus far is...

We have to outsmart them.

We have to be smarter than our tools...and their clear lack of capitalistic integrity.

Almost every one of your points was well put...but it doesn't change the fact; until they stop doing those things, since our playing by their rules isn't allowed in this country, we have to step things up...and that requires better skill sets and vastly superior education than is currently being offered (more importantly, taken advantage of) in this country.

You don't stop a bully by crying to your parents or the Principal "but he's stronger than me....he's bigger than me...it's not fair"....

(You learn Karate).

Stop being paranoid. China is doing nothing the west before it hasn't done. The thing Americans don't like about China is that their new importance is going to challenge the USA having all its own way and exploiting people around the world for their resources. Now China has created a market where countries with resources have a choice with who to deal.

As for pollution, the west has been polluting the planet for 150 years without any concern for the people and wild life on this planet. To suddenly complain about China is laughable. The US still creates far more pollutants than China (twice as much CO2 with a fraction of the population) and that balance is changing because China by manufacturing products for the American market is polluting on the US's behalve and taking pollutants out of America's back yard.

Plus per capita, China is no where near the big league of carbon polluters, if it wasn't for the polluting Aussies, Americans would be firmly in pole position.

http://www.carbonplanet.com/home/country_emissions.php