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RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." - 10/18/2007 5:17:20 PM   
EPGAH


Posts: 500
Joined: 12/25/2006
Status: offline 		#1: I think we've agreed on this in the past, but Mexicans can in either come in legally or stay out entirely, and I'm not so sure Mexico will get its butt kicked anymore. Namely, if they can't beat us militarily, they can simply outbreed us and send their excess population into America, taking it over and/or ruining it ("Scorched Earth" policy: If they can't have America, NOONE WILL!) without declaring war and getting their ass kicked!
#2: In Hawaii, as I read it, sugar-growers were afraid they'd get uprooted (pun intended), and replaced by opium-farmers (Back when it was legal)
The McKinley Tariff was charged BY AMERICANS, and is the "protectionism ruining America" that Bush is misquoting: It raised the prices of foreign goods, BUT local goods raised THEIR prices to match, so even at the same rates, people were "poorer". Wages needed to be raised to have the same buying-power. Since farm-rates were already cheaper than foreign imports, it hurt farmers the most, what with the higher wages going OUT to "hired hands", but no more money coming IN!
Hawaii was a "foreign power" at that time, so they too were under the Tariff, so the only "competitive advantage" they enjoyed was "just" being closer to America geographically. As I understood it, they called America's help to stop from being supplanted with opium. (Special interests controlling American military? That's never happened before!)
Then they fought Congress for 5 years to get annexed! Our "imperialist" country did NOT want to add more territory, mostly because then it would have to take care of that extra territory. (Which may or may not be why America hasn't annexed Mexico--even back when they literally asked for it--as in WANTING it, not as in contrasting their National Pride with ours!)
#3: Back when I was in high school, America was still a one-language country (at least in public, I really don't care what language people speak in private, English, Spanish, Morse Code, or the more obscure Continental Code!)
My choice was French or Swahili...Somehow, I doubt we'll be conquered by Africa--the Mexicans won't let us!

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." - 10/18/2007 6:50:23 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

You do realise I hope, that all those supplies which the US kindly sent us, were not gifts? That we paid our way, and in fact have been paying it all back until very recently?



Lady Ellen

I sure wish someone would loan me 119 billion of today’s dollars at a 2 percent interest rate and let me pay it off in 61 years…61 YEARS!!!

You seem to have forgotton  the 225 billion below from  BBC News.

And while the UK dutifully pays off its World War II debts, those from World War I remain resolutely unpaid. And are by no means trifling. In 1934, Britain owed the US $4.4bn of World War I debt (about £866m at 1934 exchange rates). Adjusted by the Retail Price Index, a typical measure of inflation, £866m would equate to £40bn now, and if adjusted by the growth of GDP, to about £225bn.

Hmm with that money the US could pay for a free health care system... they estimate that would only cost 110 billion. Say don't you all have paid health care in the UK... must be nice... wish we could afford it... hey we can...PAY UP

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 10/18/2007 7:19:50 PM >

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." - 10/18/2007 8:54:28 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		 
quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

#1: I think we've agreed on this in the past, but Mexicans can in either come in legally or stay out entirely, and I'm not so sure Mexico will get its butt kicked anymore. Namely, if they can't beat us militarily, they can simply outbreed us and send their excess population into America, taking it over and/or ruining it ("Scorched Earth" policy: If they can't have America, NOONE WILL!) without declaring war and getting their ass kicked!
#2: In Hawaii, as I read it, sugar-growers were afraid they'd get uprooted (pun intended), and replaced by opium-farmers (Back when it was legal)
The McKinley Tariff was charged BY AMERICANS, and is the "protectionism ruining America" that Bush is misquoting: It raised the prices of foreign goods, BUT local goods raised THEIR prices to match, so even at the same rates, people were "poorer". Wages needed to be raised to have the same buying-power. Since farm-rates were already cheaper than foreign imports, it hurt farmers the most, what with the higher wages going OUT to "hired hands", but no more money coming IN!
Hawaii was a "foreign power" at that time, so they too were under the Tariff, so the only "competitive advantage" they enjoyed was "just" being closer to America geographically. As I understood it, they called America's help to stop from being supplanted with opium. (Special interests controlling American military? That's never happened before!)
Then they fought Congress for 5 years to get annexed! Our "imperialist" country did NOT want to add more territory, mostly because then it would have to take care of that extra territory. (Which may or may not be why America hasn't annexed Mexico--even back when they literally asked for it--as in WANTING it, not as in contrasting their National Pride with ours!)
#3: Back when I was in high school, America was still a one-language country (at least in public, I really don't care what language people speak in private, English, Spanish, Morse Code, or the more obscure Continental Code!)
My choice was French or Swahili...Somehow, I doubt we'll be conquered by Africa--the Mexicans won't let us!

EGPAH:
This is getting to be really boreing...I do not think I have ever met anyone as proud of his ignorance as you.  For gawds sake get a book and learn to read something besides the KKK manifesto.  
Learn a little history.  I have given you the names of several books but you seem intent on increasing the depth of your ignorance and passing it on to anyone who will read it.  There just is not much I am willing to do for you at this point.  You are not interested in being disabused of your ignorance.  You are not interested in discussion.  You are only interested in spewing hate and intolerance, perhaps the mods will take mercy on us and toss you out of here.
thompson

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 10/18/2007 8:57:49 PM >

(in reply to EPGAH)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." - 10/19/2007 3:00:33 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

You do realise I hope, that all those supplies which the US kindly sent us, were not gifts? That we paid our way, and in fact have been paying it all back until very recently?



Lady Ellen

I sure wish someone would loan me 119 billion of today’s dollars at a 2 percent interest rate and let me pay it off in 61 years…61 YEARS!!!

You seem to have forgotton  the 225 billion below from  BBC News.

And while the UK dutifully pays off its World War II debts, those from World War I remain resolutely unpaid. And are by no means trifling. In 1934, Britain owed the US $4.4bn of World War I debt (about £866m at 1934 exchange rates). Adjusted by the Retail Price Index, a typical measure of inflation, £866m would equate to £40bn now, and if adjusted by the growth of GDP, to about £225bn.

Hmm with that money the US could pay for a free health care system... they estimate that would only cost 110 billion. Say don't you all have paid health care in the UK... must be nice... wish we could afford it... hey we can...PAY UP

Butch


I see.

any idea what the rental is on airbases, radar stations and listening posts worldwide over 62 years, anyone?

any idea what the hire rate is for MI6 over 62 years, anyone?

any idea what the cost to the UK economy was, of the Wall Street crash, anyone?

any idea what the cost to the UK is for supporting a stupid war in the first place, and daily since its shelf life expired, anyone?

any idea of a price for British worldwide diplomatic influence on behalf of the US over 62 years, anyone?

I would suspect that WWI debt must have been written off by your government m'dear.

You must be a real good friend to have, the way you keep score.

And I'd forget 110 billion for US healthcare - we're one sixth your population and our healthcare comes out at proportionally much higher cost.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." - 10/19/2007 3:19:29 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

You do realise I hope, that all those supplies which the US kindly sent us, were not gifts? That we paid our way, and in fact have been paying it all back until very recently?



Lady Ellen

I sure wish someone would loan me 119 billion of today’s dollars at a 2 percent interest rate and let me pay it off in 61 years…61 YEARS!!!

You seem to have forgotton  the 225 billion below from  BBC News.

And while the UK dutifully pays off its World War II debts, those from World War I remain resolutely unpaid. And are by no means trifling. In 1934, Britain owed the US $4.4bn of World War I debt (about £866m at 1934 exchange rates). Adjusted by the Retail Price Index, a typical measure of inflation, £866m would equate to £40bn now, and if adjusted by the growth of GDP, to about £225bn.

Hmm with that money the US could pay for a free health care system... they estimate that would only cost 110 billion. Say don't you all have paid health care in the UK... must be nice... wish we could afford it... hey we can...PAY UP

Butch


You could always give up your occupation of British bases and radar sites based on British soil that are for US defence and bugger off back to Kansas. Not everyone wants US troops on European soil, not by a long way.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." - 10/19/2007 7:25:45 AM   
EPGAH


Posts: 500
Joined: 12/25/2006
Status: offline 		No, no, you're right, our healthcare IS too expensive! Of course, we have more and better machines, and those aren't exactly delivered by elves, but the real problem is that the profit-seeking of the hospitals squeezes the doctors at both ends:
On the one hand, due to a "shortage" of doctors and nurses, they work 36-48 hour "days"! This makes them tired, and tired people make mistakes--increasingly public mistakes--like leaving sponges, forceps, and other "toys" INSIDE patients, causing discomfort and sometimes even "secondary infections". This leads to malpractice lawsuits, which there IS malpractice insurance for, but either way, it's expensive. Tort "reforms" have been suggested, to limit the amount of damages the damaged patients could seek, but that would not help anyone, really...The best solution would be to hire more doctors...
And there HAVE been a few irony stories where an HMO bigwig gets to "enjoy" treatment at one of his/her own hospitals, and gets to suffer one of those mistakes! Karma's a bitch, ain't it?

< Message edited by EPGAH -- 10/19/2007 7:26:47 AM >

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." - 10/19/2007 8:02:33 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


Lady Ellen

I sure wish someone would loan me 119 billion of today’s dollars at a 2 percent interest rate and let me pay it off in 61 years…61 YEARS!!!

You seem to have forgotton  the 225 billion below from  BBC News.

And while the UK dutifully pays off its World War II debts, those from World War I remain resolutely unpaid. And are by no means trifling. In 1934, Britain owed the US $4.4bn of World War I debt (about £866m at 1934 exchange rates). Adjusted by the Retail Price Index, a typical measure of inflation, £866m would equate to £40bn now, and if adjusted by the growth of GDP, to about £225bn.

Hmm with that money the US could pay for a free health care system... they estimate that would only cost 110 billion. Say don't you all have paid health care in the UK... must be nice... wish we could afford it... hey we can...PAY UP

Butch


....odd how in one thread you strive to suggest that the US entered world wars for ethical reasons..........yet now it apppears you suggest that supporting its allies is a rental deal.
Oh, and a cost that LE left out, the cost in money and lives due to Ronald Reagan refusing to prevent US citizens supporting terrorism in Northern Ireland. How much do you think the US owes the UK over that little shameful act, eh?

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." - 10/19/2007 10:32:29 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		LadyEllen... why get so upset I was only correcting an error... you were the one on the high horse saying the great and glorious United Kingdom repaid all its debt... I did not bring it up... the truth hurts does it not

M16 really...lol... and yes I agree you guys were good little boys and girls doing just what we told you too do....
Personally I thank you for standing by us in difficult times…I also think we had your back as well.

Don't blame us for your weakness... as thonmpson always says... if you are going to state something as fact… make sure it is correct.

< Message edited by kdsub -- 10/19/2007 10:36:05 AM >

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." - 10/19/2007 11:05:30 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

…I also think we had your back as well.



...right up to the point where it would have meant annoying US citizens who wanted to fund terrorism in Northern Ireland......until Clinton, successive US presidents refused to stop the cash flow. Private US citizens made substantial contributions to both sides in that little terrorist war. That's not having our back.....that's stabbing us in it. Despite that dishonourable fact, we still supported the US when it was attacked....and that came without a bill.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." - 10/19/2007 11:54:46 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

LadyEllen... why get so upset I was only correcting an error... you were the one on the high horse saying the great and glorious United Kingdom repaid all its debt... I did not bring it up... the truth hurts does it not

M16 really...lol... and yes I agree you guys were good little boys and girls doing just what we told you too do....
Personally I thank you for standing by us in difficult times…I also think we had your back as well.

Don't blame us for your weakness... as thonmpson always says... if you are going to state something as fact… make sure it is correct.


Personally I don't give s damn as to whether we paid a debt or not, being an ordinary person I don't pretend to have any influence over what the UK government does or doesn't do, money people decide that, just like they do in the US. When I say I wish the US would fuck off back to the US, I don't mean it as an insult to any ordinary American, they are as helpless as me in this situation, I mean I wish the US government would fuck off back. Oh and take the fucking British arse lickers back with them. Fuck knows who is paying who or who is fucking who but I wish they'd all take their shit and fuck off!

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." - 10/19/2007 12:07:02 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		With a little more research it seems the UK has also collected on war loans and still expects to collect in the future...a little hypocritical to be on us for asking repayment.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." - 10/19/2007 12:11:15 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Meatcleaver
I hope… we the people… can get our governments heading in the right direction … and remain friends and allies.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." - 10/19/2007 12:25:13 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		 
From what I could find …Margaret Thatcher asked President Regean to stop the flow of organized contributions to certain charities that were funding IRA violence. He agreed and stopped over 30 organizations in the US from contributing… She thanked the US for their actions in this regard in an address to the Congress in 1983.

However individual contributions are and were next to impossible to control let alone stop… There is no argument from me on the contributions from American citizens to the terrorism there. We should have done a better job of drying up funds and convincing the sympathetic Irish American public.
It was not Clinton I believe but 911 that made Irish Americans see the error of their ways. When American personal contributions to the IRA dried up after 911 the IRA knew they were in trouble and decided to negotiate.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." - 10/19/2007 12:30:40 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

With a little more research it seems the UK has also collected on war loans and still expects to collect in the future...a little hypocritical to be on us for asking repayment.


In the war Britain was two years ahead of the US in radar research, we gave you the technology that gave the US a big advantage in the Pacific. We also gave you the German codes despite Hollywood putting it the other way round. It was a case of you scratch my back and I scratch yours. However, the war has been over for 60 years and the US is still here. A slight over stay of welcome I think. However, as I pointed outm, neither you or I or any ordinary person as ay influence on our governments, only people with money have influence, despite most people thinking they live in a democracy, they don't or  at least they only do if they want the same as the rich and powerful want. That is why I don't really give a fuck if we have paid any loan back or not. No one asked me in the first place or they didn't ask my parents and no one is going to ask me. No one asked my grandparents generation if they wanted to fight in WWI or not, they had no choice. The loan issue is not an issue about money, it is an issue about politics and as I pointed out, when it comes to politics we riff-raff at the bottom have to just put up with what those in charge want or riot because that id the only time they listen.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." - 10/19/2007 12:32:14 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


From what I could find …Margaret Thatcher asked President Regean to stop the flow of organized contributions to certain charities that were funding IRA violence. He agreed and stopped over 30 organizations in the US from contributing… She thanked the US for their actions in this regard in an address to the Congress in 1983.

However individual contributions are and were next to impossible to control let alone stop… There is no argument from me on the contributions from American citizens to the terrorism there. We should have done a better job of drying up funds and convincing the sympathetic Irish American public.
It was not Clinton I believe but 911 that made Irish Americans see the error of their ways. When American personal contributions to the IRA dried up after 911 the IRA knew they were in trouble and decided to negotiate.


What stopped the flow of American money to the IRA was 9/11 and Bush realising it would be hypocritical to go on a war against terrorism while Americans were funding a terrorist organization!

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." - 10/19/2007 12:33:56 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		......so having admitted that US citizens funded terrorism overseas, specifically the UK, you can see how your phrase 'we had your back' rankled........

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." - 10/19/2007 1:15:36 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		These were individuals... not a government policy...There are people today in The UK that support, openly I may add, terrorism against the US. I don't blame you or your government for their beliefs and actions. Did you forget the official British supply and aid to the Tories in the late 1700’s and early 1800’s.

I am not defending anybody… but you must separate individuals from governments.

You are always assigning blame to the US and overlooking the very same faults in your own government… That is what gets my back up… the hypocrisy… not your points that are often valid...it is how vehemently you attack without balance.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 10/19/2007 2:12:24 PM >

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." - 10/19/2007 2:10:15 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

What stopped the flow of American money to the IRA was 9/11 and Bush realising it would be hypocritical to go on a war against terrorism while Americans were funding a terrorist organization!



As far as I know Bush made no move for or against the IRA... it was the Irish American sympathizers that finally realized what their money was doing was wrong. 911 brought that home to them.

Butch  

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." - 10/19/2007 2:11:56 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

These were individuals... not a government policy...There are people today in The UK that support, openly I may add, terrorism against the US. Did you forget the official British supply and aid to the Tories in the late 1700’s and early 1800’s.

I am not defending anybody… but you must separate individuals from governments.



LOL. Quite possibly, there are people in the UK supporting terrorism against the UK but there aren't people openly collecting money for terrorism and terrorists acts to be commited in the US and being defended by UK politicians and the courts unlike the protection Irish terrorists were given in the US.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." - 10/19/2007 2:13:30 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

What stopped the flow of American money to the IRA was 9/11 and Bush realising it would be hypocritical to go on a war against terrorism while Americans were funding a terrorist organization!



As far as I know Bush made no move for or against the IRA... it was the Irish American sympathizers that finally realized what their money was doing was wrong. 911 brought that home to them.

Butch  



It could have and should have been stopped decades ago.

Actually it doesn't matter, I'm sure there are muslim groups collecting for terrorist acts in London.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/19/2007 2:15:38 PM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 140
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