RE: War on Drugs.

RE: War on Drugs. (Full Version)

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velvetears -> RE: War on Drugs. (10/22/2007 11:10:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Velvet, What happened to fleshing out the accusation of unanswered questions? It's not that important to me..... go back and look if you care to. i was using it as an example to make a point in reference to something else. You made your job an issue when you brought it up, now you back away. You implied "expertise". Show me where i implied expertise, because i can show you directly where i said i was hardly an expert. Is the best you can do for your argument try to make me on the defensive about something i never even said? Now you are saying, or at least the references you gave say, your expertise is anecdotal with no scientific basis in fact. Never claimed expertise - you keep saying it and i will keep denying it. i was called a liar and i cleared up the truth with reference to why i was around "druggies" Post where i said i was an expert. Even your reference to additives has a qualifier of "sometimes", "maybe" and "can". Contray to your original position - quoted word for word; "here in NY it's laced with all kinds of crap." It is... don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out. Are you in oppositon and saying it's never? You're argument seems to be - well it's at the user level as opposed to dealer level. How do you determine between user and dealer when someone is given a joint to smoke? Are all "dealers" the same - the ones who deal in affluent neighorhoods are the same ones who deal in the slums? quote: By your logic then if you are a hunter and use your hunting gun to kill a human being - your a hypocrit. No VT, you aren't a hypocrite in that case you are a murderer. I'm slow - you'll have to flesh out the hypocrisy of your example. I don't see it. Try harder quote: One that we suspect might promote psychosis. You and your industry suspect this because all the scientific studies regarding the other fear propaganda have failed to produce the desired result. They are running out of weapons in their lost war. You need to believe that to be able to go to work every day, but don't expect everyone else to drink the Kool-Aid; you never know what's been added to it. The only thing i need to go to work everyday is the desire to make a difference in peoples lives in some small way. This job affords me more access to people in the drug culture in some form or the other and i have ears and eyes.. see and hear things, go to trainings etc. Did i claim Ph.D status? Do i need one to post or have an opinion? My job? I'm in financing - I don't finance any drug related enterprise that I am aware of, however if requested, I'd consider it on its merit as any other credit decision I make. quote: Because alcohol is legal is no argument to then add another substance to the market that people will use and abuse to get high with. Now you are changing the parameters of the example. I didn't say alcohol was an example of substance that people used to get high. I used it as an example of hypocrisy. Using one, even "on occasion" and prohibiting and being on a soapbox for banning the other is on its face hypocritical. i don't agree. Depends on your reasons for wanting the ban. Add cirrhosis, and the other detrimental effects of alcohol that don't exist with marijuana and you have a condition of a dangerous hypocrisy. Supporting the "culture" of hypocrisy and the industries of hypocrisy, isn't for me. Especially if that "culture" infringes on something you like to indulge in or in bets case needs. Luck for her she can get it from doctors and you'll never see her in a pcp rage or suffer the ill effects of some other crap that might be added, but than again i doubt you hang out in those circles, i imagine you are pretty affluent. quote: What other purpose does pot have if not to get high, besides the one of relieveing pain, which to me is ok, How magnanimous of you! But of course you had to add; "...although i have recently read some about that as well so i am not so convinced on that either." Believing something anecdotal you read that you agree with and doubting scientific results on the study of pain management is, if nothing else, an illustration of your consistency and a symptom of a closed mind. Hmmmmmmm... everything i read is anectodal yet what you read is written in stone? Who has the closed mind there? To date there is a lack of ANY scientific correlation to marijuana use and lung cancer. Enough people believed, and enough scientific evidence supported the change in the law to make marijuana legal for pain management in CA and many other States. Guess what? In CA it is also being prescribed for those UNDER 18, quite frequently I should add. Is your preference drug of choice for the under 18 crowd Ritalin okay because it's universally "legal"? No examples of that being "abused" or "used to get high"; is there? http://www.mfiles.org/Marijuana/marijauna_brochurea02.pdf [excerp] Physicians for a Smoke-Free Canada state in their report released January 23, 2002, that at this point in time we know more about the harm caused by marijuana smoke than we do about the benefits. Numerous studies have found that marijuana smoke produces pulmonary damage similar to that produced by tobacco smoke, only more severe. • Marijuana produces 50 percent more tar than the same weight of strong tobacco. • Marijuana smoke contains 70 percent more benzopyrene (a highly carcinogenic product) than tobacco smoke. • Marijuana smokers tend to inhale the smoke much more deeply into their lungs and hold it in their lungs four times longer than with cigarettes. i am sure you will have some claim as to how this is all not true or some other claim as to it being someones propaganda. quote: At any rate.... those are my pov, opinions etc. You have yours merc. i don't see either one of us changing anytime soon. That is a shame and perhaps the most disheartening think you've posted. It also points to a major difference between us. If you made a argument or factual representation, the possibility of change did and does exist in me. Produce "facts" and maybe i will.

luckydog1 -> RE: War on Drugs. (10/22/2007 11:16:25 AM)
There is some laced pot in America, but it is very rare, and confined to certain communities. I grew up on the East Coast and knew of one person who got Loveboat instead of weed, and smoked, and freaked/hospitalised at 15. He had smoked many times before. The economics of it does work to all who have commented otherwise. You take crappy PCP and cut it with embalming fluid ( a formaldhyde variant), then roll a small joint of brown weed, and dip it. The economics works out the same as with crack. You sell 1 dollar of brown weed for 5$ and a dip, and the user goes sailing with captian stupid for 5 $. In the 80s when I was in Virginia, only black people used it. It was a common drug in DC. Termna8tr is right, it doesn't smell like pot. Rarely people get it by mistake, often young/new users, or its passed arond while drunk. In certain communites it is devestating, and a real problem. Bubt that has to much more to do with criminalization and the problems of the Ghetto, and people taking advantage of the poor and ignorant. Which legalisation would likely help alieviate, cetainly for Pot.

Mercnbeth -> RE: War on Drugs. (10/22/2007 11:33:12 AM)
quote: It's not that important to me..... You often bring things up that are not important? Should the balance of your inquiry be taken in the same context? quote: Show me where i implied expertise, because i can show you directly where i said i was hardly an expert. Is the best you can do for your argument try to make me on the defensive about something i never even said? You said your work in rehabilitation should be considered as another alternative reason for you position as opposed to only your friends and family. My apologies if I assumed your work in the field implied expertise. Obviously - I was wrong. quote: It is... don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out. Are you in oppositon and saying it's never? You're argument seems to be - well it's at the user level as opposed to dealer level. How do you determine between user and dealer when someone is given a joint to smoke? Are all "dealers" the same - the ones who deal in affluent neighorhoods are the same ones who deal in the slums?[/quote]Don't know and never claimed any expertise in that area. However, your statement quoted referencing absolute speaks for itself. Sure, I'll stand behind the "sometimes", "maybe" and "can" representation. I don't even expect you to back off your absolute. quote: Hmmmmmmm... everything i read is anectodal yet what you read is written in stone? Who has the closed mind there? The studies that are sited ARE written in stone with scientific results NOT anecdotal. Read again - this time for comprehension. quote: Produce "facts" and maybe i will. The BEST you can do is a brochure from 2002!? ??? Why not suggest I view "Reefer Madness" it's similarly timely. That being the case, your side of the "war" truly has surrendered and it seems the word hasn't trickled down to the troops still hiding away in caves! The claims made on the other side are not only supported by facts, but people living by the consequences of those facts; both positive and negative. Your 2002 dated "brochure" had not one Doctor named. All information came from sources required to take positions in support of their agenda's and industries. I again appreciate that is the only tact you can take, but really - in the age of the internet and fast changing status you should site something more current. PS - In Washington State, marijuana is also LEGAL, passed by Initiative 692 in 1998. Care to be educated?: http://hemp.net/692faq.html Back to the OP - What of the "war"? What are you doing to end it versus perpetuating it? Half truths, fear propaganda, and outright lies doesn't appear to be working. Wouldn't access and regulation serve much of your agenda? Or is your position in that regard also best "kept to myself"?

SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: War on Drugs. (10/22/2007 12:47:39 PM)
my son used to come home from school, with notes telling me he had said something smart assed. he would say i didnt do it mom. we would discuss the fact that if his dad and i, his nanna, the teacher, the principal, and bout everyone else was telling him he was, in fact, wrong in his reactions and actions, he might wanna look deep within him self and realize that everyone else was not wrong...it was him. took him a while, but eventually he got it. vt, i enjoy your posts, and i have no clue where your life has been to make you feel the need to defend this subject so vehemently. whatever is was, or is, i am sorry for thepain it haas left you with. but you have folks who smoke regularly, whether for medicinal purposes or fun, telling you something and you refuse to see it. i have never, in 30 years, seen weed laced with something that i wasnt aware of when i bought it. no one else who smokes has come forward to say they have ever encountered it either. beating your head against the screen wont change our minds, any more than we will change yours. i guess we all see our own reality and nothing can change it. your experiences are in a huge minority. i suspect your kids have lied to you, but i wont even go there. breathe a bit and just let it go.......be true to your self....im just really having to burn one to read this train wreck and im about out of merrywanna.

MasterDoc1 -> RE: War on Drugs. (10/22/2007 1:39:20 PM)
One man's view on why the war on drugs is and had to be a disaster...and more! http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/123/war-on-terror-its-as-bad-as-war-on-drugs/

velvetears -> RE: War on Drugs. (10/22/2007 10:22:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne i have never, in 30 years, seen weed laced with something that i wasnt aware of when i bought it. no one else who smokes has come forward to say they have ever encountered it either. Actually a few have - guess you missed those posts.

velvetears -> RE: War on Drugs. (10/22/2007 10:54:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth You often bring things up that are not important? Should the balance of your inquiry be taken in the same context? That only you can decide for yourself. i am sure many who post feel what they post is important or why would they bother? That doesn't mean i have to think what they say is important. quote: velvetears Show me where i implied expertise, because i can show you directly where i said i was hardly an expert. Is the best you can do for your argument try to make me on the defensive about something i never even said? quote: Mercnbeth You said your work in rehabilitation should be considered as another alternative reason for you position as opposed to only your friends and family. My apologies if I assumed your work in the field implied expertise. Obviously - I was wrong. Even if i wanted it considered, that doesn't imply expertise. You give your opinions on Master slave relationships, post about events you go to etc... does that mean we should assume you are saying you are an expert? i doubt there are too many experts around, on anything for that matter. i certainly never claimed to be one. quote: velvetears It is... don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out. Are you in oppositon and saying it's never? You're argument seems to be - well it's at the user level as opposed to dealer level. How do you determine between user and dealer when someone is given a joint to smoke? Are all "dealers" the same - the ones who deal in affluent neighorhoods are the same ones who deal in the slums? quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Don't know and never claimed any expertise in that area. Then how can you say pots not laced with any authority. You say i am wrong in stating it is, but your not wrong in stating it isn't laced, even though you just said you don't really know. i will ask you a direct question. Would you go to the seediest neighborhood near you (assuming it would be in or near LA) and cop a bag of pot and allow beth to smoke it? quote: velvetears Hmmmmmmm... everything i read is anectodal yet what you read is written in stone? Who has the closed mind there? quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth The studies that are sited ARE written in stone with scientific results NOT anecdotal. Read again - this time for comprehension. Did you read the scientific study i posted linking early pot smoking and psychosis, the one where they have isolated a gene? That was hardly anecdotal. i didn't hear a peep out of you when that one slipped by. quote: velvetears Produce "facts" and maybe i will. quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth The BEST you can do is a brochure from 2002!? ??? Why not suggest I view "Reefer Madness" it's similarly timely. i knew you would come up with something - ok here from NIDA http://www.nida.nih.gov/scienceofaddiction/health.html Marijuana is the most commonly abused illicit substance. This drug impairs short-term memory and learning, the ability to focus attention, and coordination. It also increases heart rate, can harm the lungs, and can cause psychosis in those at risk. Whatever is hapening in this "war on drugs" - has little influence on how i personally feel about drug use. i have seen the ill effects. i grew up surrounded by it, disgusted by it. Curious Lord said it best when he said - i am not directly quoting him, just from memory - He used to think about legalization of pot but then saw how stupid it made everyone. That just about sums it up.

farglebargle -> RE: War on Drugs. (10/22/2007 11:01:51 PM)
That link is nothing more than unsupported propaganda. Here's how to tell the difference. REAL RESEARCH has an ABSTRACT, Goals, Methods, RESULTS, Analysis and CITATIONS TO PREVIOUS WORKS relied upon for the study. Get back to me when you have some real evidence, and not more Government Propaganda produced by Government Employees only really concerned with hiring MORE Government Employees. You know, Science. Boy, all that weed must have made me too dumb to just accept shit with no scientific basis, eh?

velvetears -> RE: War on Drugs. (10/22/2007 11:12:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle That link is nothing more than unsupported propaganda. Here's how to tell the difference. REAL RESEARCH has an ABSTRACT, Goals, Methods, RESULTS, Analysis and CITATIONS TO PREVIOUS WORKS relied upon for the study. Get back to me when you have some real evidence, and not more Government Propaganda produced by Government Employees only really concerned with hiring MORE Government Employees. You know, Science. Boy, all that weed must have made me too dumb to just accept shit with no scientific basis, eh? http://www.ukcia.org/research/COMTgene.pdf Read it this time - are 2 pages of scientific references enough for you?

velvetears -> RE: War on Drugs. (10/22/2007 11:17:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 There is some laced pot in America, but it is very rare, and confined to certain communities. I grew up on the East Coast and knew of one person who got Loveboat instead of weed, and smoked, and freaked/hospitalised at 15. He had smoked many times before. The economics of it does work to all who have commented otherwise. You take crappy PCP and cut it with embalming fluid ( a formaldhyde variant), then roll a small joint of brown weed, and dip it. The economics works out the same as with crack. You sell 1 dollar of brown weed for 5$ and a dip, and the user goes sailing with captian stupid for 5 $. In the 80s when I was in Virginia, only black people used it. It was a common drug in DC. Termna8tr is right, it doesn't smell like pot. Rarely people get it by mistake, often young/new users, or its passed arond while drunk. In certain communites it is devestating, and a real problem. Bubt that has to much more to do with criminalization and the problems of the Ghetto, and people taking advantage of the poor and ignorant. Which legalisation would likely help alieviate, cetainly for Pot. Thank you luckydog1 for explaining. i know the problem exists but didn't understand it from the economic angle everyone was talking about. This was the point i was trying to make about ones social/economic status being a factor in what kinds of pot they get their hands on - or any drug for that matter.

farglebargle -> RE: War on Drugs. (10/23/2007 12:01:29 AM)
What I took away from that is apparently there's a genetic component detected in the STATISTICAL ANALYSIS of the statistical link between weed and schitzophrenic behaviour. Which in the real world, means what? That crazy people like to smoke weed, too? And regarding the rich/poor drug safety issue. Well, sure. Heroin addicts either need a dealer, or a sympathetic doctor and health insurance to cover their Oxycontin prescription. The Rich get pharmaceutical grade drugs. The Poor get whatever shit they can afford. Most people? It's not even an issue. They either have their lives together enough that a bag of weed a week isn't a financial issue, and if they're even MODERATELY together financially, a GOOD bag of weed, at that. ( Although with the recent flip in exchange rates between the US and Canada, that's changing, too... )

Zaraseeks -> RE: War on Drugs. (10/23/2007 1:11:46 AM)
Well gosh, sadly this is the first thread I will reply on, why is everyone being so harsh and rude with velvetears??? OK, I will say some of this does not make any sense, but why would she lie, obviously she has either been lied to or these people are dealing with a saidstic dealer, or maybe (and really this notion is not so far out) just maybe, a dealer who wants to hook people before they know what hit them. Now how would they not notice, I have no idea, but hey people are dumb. My step dad was (wonderful man) a dealer pot and crack, and he laced the pot I would smoke without me knowing way back in the begining when I had no idea, and I bet he did it to others, I still cringe when I try to figure out his motives. But yes it is possible and if she is wrong, really who cares, she obviously is smart enough to stay away from the stuff, which is leaving her a bit in the dark and you guys are acting like this leaves you witty, well it doesnt. You guys are being assholes, and coming off as druggies. seriously, the guy that went on and on about her brothers being junkies...umm. She did say recovered, I think YOU have more reason to lie or tell someone what they want to hear then him....Christ! Best of luck to ya velvetears, and all you need to really know is what you already know, dont even bother touching it!

Zensee -> RE: War on Drugs. (10/23/2007 1:27:18 AM)
Zaraseeks: I think it may have to do with listener fatigue. We hear so much inflated bullshit about the dangers of drugs (OMG! Pot makes you want to rape and kill!!!) that when someone offers alarmist nonsense as an argument for continuing the criminalising of a purely personal choice it deserves all the derision one can muster. Whether or not adulteration of drugs occurs is of no relevence to the matter of present drug policy vs something more enlightened. None. Zero. Zip. It's a distraction. Z.

Zaraseeks -> RE: War on Drugs. (10/23/2007 1:30:07 AM)
I agree....this is SO far off topic its unreal. But still, must everyone be such an ass to the girl? She obviously means well

MissMagnolia -> RE: War on Drugs. (10/23/2007 1:52:08 AM)
Welcome to Collar Me zara[8\|].

Zaraseeks -> RE: War on Drugs. (10/23/2007 2:09:10 AM)
LOL, well thank You MissMagnolia, second time around, had to leave for a year or so wink and see what I am getting sucked into oh so fast!?!?!? Well it is 5 am...guess I am just bored, loving some of Your posts tho!

farglebargle -> RE: War on Drugs. (10/23/2007 3:20:55 AM)
When you say to a kid "All pot is laced with all sorts of crap", and they buy a few bags and learn that isn't true, they keep your lack of credibility in mind when you later say, "Crack and Heroin will FUCK YOU UP". Personally, I subscribe to the theory that if drugs were legal, then piece-of-shit scumbags wouldn't be able to rely on the artificially inflated prices as a means of support and/or profit. So you wouldn't have crackheads doing retarded shit like dipping cigarettes in formaldyhide. No-one seems to be searching for a dealer for cheap booze, do they? Nope. Thunderbird is available at the bodega.

Mercnbeth -> RE: War on Drugs. (10/23/2007 6:57:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zaraseeks I agree....this is SO far off topic its unreal. But still, must everyone be such an ass to the girl? She obviously means well Zara, Good intent and meaning doesn't exempt hypocrisy and passing false information and propaganda. Although she's backed away from many of her original points it started as an "all pot is laced" representation. To date there has been no disclaimer of that position. In fact its restated; "*You say i am wrong in stating it is," in her latest post. The position is also dangerous. Representing something as fact that doesn't match reality will generate skepticism and doubt. The very people she expresses concern, the "youth", will discount ALL information coming from an unreliable source. When the actuality that MOST post is NOT laced and when it is it costs, tastes, and smells different is experienced it is reasonable to doubt ALL information from the source. If pot is the "Gateway Drug" rehabilitation and propaganda based upon lies is the "Gateway Lie" that youth gets to hear first in the 'DARE' program. quote:* Did you read the scientific study i posted linking early pot smoking and psychosis, the one where they have isolated a gene? VT, Maybe you have a problem reading the words "may" "can" and "might". The gene "may" point to a correlation. However it is the same gene they're looking at as the source of many addictions - even food. But I'll agree with that position too. Too much food "MAY" cause you to be fat. quote: Whatever is hapening in this "war on drugs" - has little influence on how i personally feel about drug use. i have seen the ill effects. i grew up surrounded by it, disgusted by it. Curious Lord said it best when he said - i am not directly quoting him, just from memory - He used to think about legalization of pot but then saw how stupid it made everyone. That just about sums it up. However you still won't speak one way or the other about legalization and regulation? If you problem is with pot additives you should be out front in the war for legalization. The "bad neighborhood" source wouldn't be there if it could be bought at the equivalent of a liqueur store. I don't see many 'stills' those neighborhoods but would stipulate that they may exist. And that's the problem with your position. Your 'war' is lost but you want people to belief that you're still killing the enemy. Its similar to the Vietnam War body counts; 2600 'Cong' killed and only 3 US solders. But those soldiers didn't have to die at all did they? Similarly nobody has to have access to "laced" pot if they hypocrisy of the drug and alcohol industry wasn't support by your industry of "rehabilitation". Therein lies the fraud and the problem - perpetuating hypocrisy.

velvetears -> RE: War on Drugs. (10/23/2007 7:34:08 AM)
This is becoming tedious. i never said "all".... you can lie about what i post all you want merc, it won't change my real words. i did speak about legalization, you choose not to hear my words so you can say i am evading the issue. So be it. i'd ask you to quote me specifically where i said "all" pot is laced. i'd like to read it myself. The "bad neighborhood" source wouldn't be there if it could be bought at the equivalent of a liqueur store. Is that your answer to my question about allowing beth to smoke seedy street corner pot? Seems evasive to me. Let me ask you this question. If it is legal one day, i am sure 15 yr olds won't be able to buy it. Where will they go to get theirs? THAT is who i am concerned about. Not where a bunch of adolecent left over hippies in their 40's and 50's get their pot from. For the record i never said it didn't smell or taste different. Do you actually think a lot of pre 21 yr olds take much notice when they wanna get high and are passed a joint? i would bet many of them would think that's great that it's laced.... teenage years=recklessness. The saddest part of this whole thread as far as i am concerend is people have to try to twist my words and make me out to be a liar as a disuasive tactic. Lawyers do that, quite well or they would be out of business. The Rich get pharmaceutical grade drugs. The Poor get whatever shit they can afford. And this is ok with you? Sad commentary on your outlook. Very selfish. Zaraseeks i am sorry for your experience with your step dad - how awful. Thanks for sharing your experience. It gave me another answer as to why people would lace pot, makes sense, to get them physically addicted and craving it so they have to come back for more.

Mercnbeth -> RE: War on Drugs. (10/23/2007 8:50:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zaraseeks ...why is everyone being so harsh and rude with velvetears???... perhaps it is because she is a shining example of the kind of "reefer madness" attitude that has polarized the federal government's outdated stance on marijuana since 1937. it isn't like the court system is telling her that she has no constitutional right to life, just because her comrades want to assuage their guilt over their genetic code or whatever other $$$agenda$$$ they have for a "Drug Free America"---you could always ask Angel Raich how she feels about how harsh and rude that is. here's her website: http://angeljustice.org/ If the head of the DEA stood up in front of Congress and said the things Mr. Anslinger said, when marijuana was governmentally villified--he'd be fired. but back then...there was precious little, if any, scientific research to either uphold or refute his ridiculous claims and it was acceptable to make laws BASED ON racism. for this slave, it is an issue on quality of life, not backwards-assed, racist, antiquated, un-scientifically proven, government funded propoganda-passing. this slave enjoys a good debate about the varied issues of the "War on Drugs" and she has a personal interest in the legalization of marijuana. comments like the ones velvet made specifically and directly to this slave and general comments like this that you made, for example: "smart enough to stay away from the stuff" are also rude and harsh, not to mention ignorant, intolerant and without compassion. just like the "War on Drugs".

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