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masochism vs. submission - 10/13/2007 10:25:23 PM   
homework


Posts: 36
Joined: 11/11/2006
Status: offline 		Now  i do realize that there is a difference between masochism and submission. You don't have to have the first to have the second. I was wondering, two things really. One, can a masochist be taught to be truly submissive and to take pleasure in serving as oppose to serving to only receive the pain they like so much?
Two, (not at all related to the first question) but has anyone else felt a lose when they haven't received pain and had that really nice physical release that comes with it? What can you do to take the edge off?
Sorry i am all over the place just trying to get some perspective.
Thanks- homework


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RE: masochism vs. submission - 10/13/2007 11:57:30 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: homework
One, can a masochist be taught to be truly submissive and to take pleasure in serving as oppose to serving to only receive the pain they like so much?

Most people take some pleasure in serving other people in the world- including masters.

But you cannot teach someone to be "a sub" you can teach them to express their inner orientation and embrace their orientations in new ways that they did not previously.
quote:


Two, (not at all related to the first question) but has anyone else felt a lose when they haven't received pain and had that really nice physical release that comes with it? What can you do to take the edge off?
Sorry i am all over the place just trying to get some perspective.
Thanks- homework

Go exercise.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: masochism vs. submission - 10/14/2007 5:03:12 AM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		I tend to find dominants who enjoy giving pain as much as I enjoy receiving it.  I submit to the dominant’s authority because that is the dynamic.  I don’t submit just to get the reward of pain; submission carries its own joy.  And that includes accepting the dominant’s choice of whether or not to include pain play that day.

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"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

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RE: masochism vs. submission - 10/14/2007 5:06:27 AM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		I don't think you can teach a person who prefers power equal relationships to prefer giving up power. I also don't think you can take a person who prefers a power relationship and teach them to prefer a power equal relationship. Or teach someone who prefers having control to prefer giving it up.

What we're wired for is what we're wired for.

As far as endorphin release when you don't have anyone to give it to you? Heavy exercise, there's a reason they call it runner's high. Dark chocolate although then you need the exercise even more.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: masochism vs. submission - 10/14/2007 6:07:32 AM   
PrettyOHDomme


Posts: 61
Joined: 8/26/2007
Status: offline 		After some intense exploration in college, I discovered I was a masochist, rather than a submissive. I played with several Doms who tried to convince me I was a "submissive-in-denial," but it never really worked. You can't force someone into a role.

I now identify as a Domme who occasionally likes to bottom. Liking strong sensation does not make one a submissive.

And I second the dark chocolate vote.

By the way, if you'd like to discuss this privately with someone who has struggled with this, let me know.

Best,
-Miss Ellen

(in reply to Celeste43)
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RE: masochism vs. submission - 10/14/2007 9:41:35 AM   
Viridana


Posts: 754
Status: offline 		I have to echo the previous responses. I believe dominance and submissiveness are personality traits rather than roles. You can't train or mold a person into something they're not.

In regards to the second question. You can do heavy exercise (as suggested before) or you can inflict pain upon yourself.. When I'm in dire need and my partner isn't there... I tend to to a heavy flogger session on my forearm or calves or whatever just for a bit of a compromise to myself :)



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RE: masochism vs. submission - 10/14/2007 11:22:28 AM   
homework


Posts: 36
Joined: 11/11/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks for everyones responses so far. This is where things get fuzzy for me. See when we beagn our relationship i did things for him without even being asked because that is who i am. i fell right into his domestic dream of a submissive without even being asked. i love doing it becasue i know it makes him happy.  So we haven't had to set up too many guidlines for that part of our life. Where we run into trouble is when he wants to play and he wants to get me into that mindset of you will be submissive he can't seem to  find that switch. Does that mean there isn't one? Or that we haven't worked togehter long enough to establish one? The other clarification i wanted to make was this. i understand the endorphin rush that comes from pain play, chocolate, and excercise. For me though (and maybe i am wrong) it seems to be more than just a rush. The rush is great but at the same time a calming effect happens and i feel connected to the person who helped push my limits and helped me not to be the one in control of the household for those few minutes. Does any of this make sense?

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RE: masochism vs. submission - 10/14/2007 11:49:51 AM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Where we run into trouble is when he wants to play and he wants to get me into that mindset of you will be submissive he can't seem to  find that switch.

This right here has me confused. Are you saying that you are submissive everywhere but in the bedroom when you play?

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RE: masochism vs. submission - 10/14/2007 12:08:42 PM   
homework


Posts: 36
Joined: 11/11/2006
Status: offline 		i am submissive in the bedroom. soemtimes i have to admit to sometimes being feisty before getting to the bedroom. i guess he wants to be able to look at me or touch  me in some way and then for the feistiness to stop and the submissiveness to begin. i asked him if he could just tell me and he wants it to be non-verbal. So it that something we need to work together on so that i know want he wants when he wants it?

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RE: masochism vs. submission - 10/14/2007 3:33:49 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		How long have you guys been together?  It can take years to properly train a sub to a doms particular likings, even if they start off right away embracing and understanding their submission.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: masochism vs. submission - 10/14/2007 10:36:03 PM   
homework


Posts: 36
Joined: 11/11/2006
Status: offline 		LuckyAlbatross,

Thank you for bringing up the obvious. i didn't think about the length of time that we have been together. it has only been a year.and nine months. i know that in terms of the lifestyle that isn't very long. i have just been so excited (new subs what can you say), that again i need to go back on working on being patient. Also he had been lcuky with his other submissives and he didn't have to do much training. So this long term training is new to him- he kind of assumed that i wasn't submissive and it made me think that maybe i wasn't but now from talking to y'all i see that we both just need to continue communicating and working the way we have been. Thanks for everything from everyone.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: masochism vs. submission - 10/15/2007 9:13:58 AM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline 		Well I agree with most others. Personally after been with him this long that I do not think without concerted specific effort and communication that getting to where it sounds he wants you might be difficult. It appears that both of you are looking as you say for some switch in you which to me means a problem in general.

As others have said being submissive and being in a D/s relationship on some level are two very different things. I do not mean to be miss negative, but on some level when he tries to turn on the switch you should be able to respond or make an effort to respond and get to a desired level. In all honesty it is not a fine line but a huge line in the difference of doing something submissive when you feel like it, like most people, and being submissive when asked of.

Physical impact play between two people is not just like exercise, good sex or chocolate in how the brain works. Because another is doing it to you and many times done with expressed submission overtones a person certainly will be more submissive right after it is done to them. Read any Domestic Discipline site as they write on and on about this type of thing. The problem though is if you do not have a significant submissive personality the physical aspects will barely last past the actual scene.

My .02 to advice instead of both of you concentrating on him figuring on how to turn on your switch maybe think about how you can turn on that switch when he wants you to.


_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

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RE: masochism vs. submission - 10/15/2007 12:38:58 PM   
Drifa


Posts: 547
Joined: 7/27/2007
From: Rural Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: homework

i am submissive in the bedroom. soemtimes i have to admit to sometimes being feisty before getting to the bedroom. i guess he wants to be able to look at me or touch  me in some way and then for the feistiness to stop and the submissiveness to begin. i asked him if he could just tell me and he wants it to be non-verbal. So it that something we need to work together on so that i know want he wants when he wants it?


We really tend to rely on ritual to demarcate playtime.

Sometimes my Lady will just ask me if I've been naughty... if she gets a submissive answer, then things may roll from there. Or she'll come into my office and get a fistful of hair, pull my head back, and kiss me tenderly and watch my reaction. Both ways she is watching my reaction to see what I need. And she's telling me pretty clearly what she wants... and what I want is to please her.

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RE: masochism vs. submission - 10/16/2007 12:47:35 AM   
deliciousmorsel


Posts: 153
Joined: 9/22/2007
Status: offline 		I'm a masochist- no two ways abut it. But certain Doms draw me under the spell and I am nothing but submissive. And some really like to be sadists and put me in my place, as it were. I don't scream from pain,so they get psychological. I like that too.
You all need to communicate! Some of us were truly made to tend the hearth, so the house is easy. And running it for the pleasure of the Master is a joy. Even amongst the vanilla you'll find this.
I'm not understanding what you mean by lack of submissionin the bedroom. I love to be ordered around, and I think few girls can read a mind on how to please perfectly when it comes to sex. A lot of men in general don't want to discuss it and I find that frustrating. Vanilla men as well as Dominants. The most refreshing Dom I was ever blessed to be in service to liked absolute control- and he ordered blow by blow what to do. What an educational eye opener!
You need to talk to him, explain that you aren't psychic and want to know what he wants,you'll be glad to serve. Not in the bedroom! Have the talk on neutral ground.

(in reply to Drifa)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: masochism vs. submission - 10/16/2007 5:19:26 AM   
littlebitxxx


Posts: 732
Status: offline 		Hello homework,
This is from my point of view only but hopefully may help answer your questions.  I am a huge maso pain slut submissive (sometimes) with slave tendencies....figure that one...lol.  I can submit to or serve my Jarl sexually or vanilla at a glance from him, seemingly at a drop of the hat.  I am or can be submissive in the bedroom, not passive by any means, but do have a really hard time with taking orders there.  I am or can be submissive but not passive in our vanilla life, also just by a word or request.  I can and have initiated submissive situations, sexually or not.  He says I also have some slave tendencies but I don't know exactly what he means by that. 

Now, I am a maso pain slut and he is not sadistic by any means.  He has never given pain to anyone even during scenes or playing.  Until now it has been somewhat of a limit to him.  Knowing I love it, need it, crave it, he is willing to explore that side of himself in order to give me what I love.  During our first scene, he discovered that he likes it.  A lot of it was psychological in that I trust him enough to hurt me without harming me, and the fact that he was able to see my reaction when he caused the pain, helped immensely.  So he is learning to beat me in the way I love to be beaten.  (I sooo love him for that)  We had already discussed, and still discuss, what would happen if he couldn't satisfy my craving for pain.  He is willing to allow another Dom to take that role if need be.  Now, what kind of trust in our relationship is that?!?  Freakin amazing, I think.

I have found, in our experience, that there is a certain switch that he can flip to get me from the vanilla type Free Companion sassy feisty playful brat of every day into utter submission and on my knees in an instant.  It is a small ritual but one that says to me "Get the mindset going, slut, I'm coming for you."  We talked about it beforehand so I knew what was coming and it worked.  It IS truly in your mindset but you have to want to go there in the first place or it won't work.  Maybe a small ritual or something you can set up with your Dom will help you flip your switch.  Make it the non-verbal that he would like, a gesture, a certain position of standing, something that would indicate to you he is ready for a submissive NOW.  Some may call that training.  I would call it communicating your desires back and forth and coming to an agreement.

Sorry for the long post.  Hugs to ya.

_____________________________

There is no such thing as can't unless it is followed by yet

It is the meaningless little acts that become meaningful in the doing.

The people that mind don't matter and the people that matter don't mind.

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RE: masochism vs. submission - 10/16/2007 6:02:59 AM   
rmanrr


Posts: 358
Joined: 7/25/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings
As I have said before and will do so whenever I see them, My woman, you give Me reasons to be proud to have you on a continual basis. The vast majority of the time when I read your posts I happen to agree with what you say from a different viewpoint....the times I don't is when I might add something to say of My own. Further they are times when we discuss our mutual journey (well apart from discussing everything else under the sun of course, heh heh). You mention briefly above the trust we have in our relationship which has laid the absolute rock upon which everything else we have is built. As I spoke with you last night on this for a time I think I will elaborate on it here, at the risk of hijacking the thread.
The trust first experienced has grown to be that of a complete lack (on My part) of fear about what you might say, or do; while in My presence or while we are apart or anywhere we happen to be. As I said to you last night, you are part of My safe place, My haven. How I got to here and you got to your feelings of a similar place was not without each of us wanting to be completely open, honest, and forthright ( while each of us also require that of the other). We literally can and do speak about anything which comes to mind and the topics we have discussed would probably have many of the human race red in the face with their embarassment (that is of course there problem and not ours). So then, about TRUST. I believe ours is quite sound, deep and without comparison. I trust you implicitly and without fear. I believe you have the same level as I do. Why else do we continue to speak, travel thousands of miles to share time (and continue to build our journey together), and why else are you moving here ....heh heh.
We have found in each other the fit of the ages. We make requests of each other, not so much ordering the other around in any aspect of our life together. We each know how the other responds to orders through observation of each other, quite simply, not well. We continue to learn about each other through the transition of "holiday/honeymoon" to "life everyday" and while that transition happens to all (I think) the people we are, is making it oh so easy. This is not to say of course that aspects of holiday will disappear and that life will be scripted for that would be a tragedy....and being the people we are I know that life with you here permanently will still be interesting, vibrant and certainly not boring. It all comes down to something people have said but in My experience few can maintain for a goodly amount of time....communication. Lose that and people will lose everything they have put so much effort in obtaining in whatever facet of their life it applies, personal, spiritual, or business. Now that I have hijacked the thread, and rambled on, it is indeed time for Me to ramble on to work. I love you littlebit (sage) you are indeed My woman.


_____________________________

Be Well, Be Careful

Jarl Rmanrr

"the road untravelled is the loneliest." Me
Courage...the ability to overcome obstacles during the course.
"to be insane is to be original!"...Me

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RE: masochism vs. submission - 10/16/2007 8:01:02 AM   
Tigrita


Posts: 484
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		I get kind of a masochistic high from the cold too.  I love to go sit out in a cold rain, or play in the surf when it is freezing cold and most people would think I'm insane.  Letting the waves have their way with you and the numbness and shivering make me feel really alive.  I don't know if that is an option for you since not a lot of people have nice beaches accessible.  It has a lot to do with the elements for me, but maybe for some, curling up in a cold shower might do it.

~ J

_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

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RE: masochism vs. submission - 10/16/2007 8:08:11 AM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline 		I learned a long time ago to stop it with the "molding" routine. I accept what is there,and only help with explorations of things already extant. If he can't seem to find that sub switch-it may well not be there.

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RE: masochism vs. submission - 10/16/2007 3:07:20 PM   
Kalari


Posts: 15
Joined: 8/21/2007
Status: offline 		To answer the first question (entirely in my experience and opinion), yes.  A submissive masochist can be taught to truly submit.  I do it quite willingly.  If my Dom doesn't wish to inflict pain on me on a particular day, I am perfectly happy with the fact that he has pleased himself with me in whatever way he does wish.  However, I will say that with D/s comes the understanding of each other's needs.  A caring Dom should recognize that his sub is a masochist and should therefore cater to those needs as often as he feels is proper.

Now the second question.  This actually speaks to me a lot because I'm in Italy right now and will be away from my Dom for several months.  I have found that self-inflicted (but non-damaging!) pain works about as well as masturbation for the sex-deprived.  It's not nearly as good as the "real thing," but it does help.  I have an outlet as a martial artist that my colleagues and I can fight and I can go home worn out and bruised.  But I have also been known to strike myself with switches (small tree branches), as well as to scrape or lightly cut my skin with knives (for the knife-experienced only).  I hope this helps.  There are various types and levels of masochism, so one person's methods may be entirely useless to another.

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