RE: The myth of the "1970s global cooling hysteria" (Full Version)

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dcnovice -> RE: The myth of the "1970s global cooling hysteria" (10/17/2007 6:13:48 PM)

<never mind>




Alumbrado -> RE: The myth of the "1970s global cooling hysteria" (10/17/2007 8:48:23 PM)

Wise move...[;)]




meatcleaver -> RE: The myth of the "1970s global cooling hysteria" (10/17/2007 11:48:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
These clouds reflect sunlight in addition to trapping heat. Because Venus reflects so much sunlight, it is usually the brightest planet in the sky.

So you can parrot NASA dogma. Why am I not impressed and convinced? If those clouds reflect all that sunlight, then how can they possibly trap heat caused by that sunlight?


DOH!

I thought you was the supergenius Rule.

You can create heat by chemical reaction in the dark at the south pole.[8|]

There comes a point when outside sources of heat become unnecessary.




Rule -> RE: The myth of the "1970s global cooling hysteria" (10/18/2007 4:51:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
DOH!

I had to google that one. It didn't help that you used capitals.
http://www.worldwidewords.org/topicalwords/tw-doh1.htm
So I think that you meant "Duh!"

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

You can create heat by chemical reaction in the dark at the south pole.[8|]

One can? Using the wood of trees that grow there in the icy wastes, I presume? That is amazing. How does that pertain to Venus please?

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

There comes a point when outside sources of heat become unnecessary.

I get the impression that you are a poikilothermic theoretician that has just now invented homeothermic organisms. That is amazing as well. Well done. How does that pertain to Venus and the laws of thermodynamics please?




meatcleaver -> RE: The myth of the "1970s global cooling hysteria" (10/18/2007 5:17:43 AM)

Rule. You are the genius. If you don't know why Venus is so hot, how can a mere mortal explain it.




Rule -> RE: The myth of the "1970s global cooling hysteria" (10/18/2007 6:02:08 AM)

But I do know why Venus is that hot and standing upside down and rotating that slowly, MC. I wrote an exhaustive chapter about Venus in the third English language edition of my astronomy book published in small numbers under own management in 2000 explaining those phenomena and more. I cannot divulge that without giving away my identity, though.
 
I can tell you that it has nothing to do with the Venusian atmosphere: that atmosphere is an effect of Venus being hot, not a cause.




samboct -> RE: The myth of the "1970s global cooling hysteria" (12/5/2008 5:02:49 PM)

An update on the science front-

I just got back from the 2008 Materials Research Society (MRS) meeting in Boston.  One of the major invited talks was given by Susan Solomon of the NOAA on the 2007 IPCC report.  There is effectively no debate any longer in the science community on global warming.  Oh, I'm sure there are a few skeptics (Anybody remember Peter Duesberg who managed to convince Idi Amin that AIDS wasn't spread by HIV?  The death toll from that one is only a few million or so, but who's counting?), but the theory is showing itself to be remarkably robust. The President of the MRS, Cynthia Volkaert characterized the talk as frightening and a call for action.  Most people there agreed with Dr. Volkaert's description.  Anybody who wants to argue with global warming at this point is now arguing with physics.  A few points-

1)  The temperature rise associated with anthropogenic sources of CO2 has been estimated at 0.75C  (I'll get to how that estimation was made.)
2)  Competing hypotheses such as variations in the sun cycle have shown to be independent of global warming.  
3)  Ice ages are due to variations in the Earth's orbit and are predictable.  We're not due for another one in 10,000 years or so.
4)  While CO2 levels were a lagging indicator of Earth's temperature in the past, CO2 levels are now forcing the temperature to rise.
5)  Lifetimes of CO2 in the atmosphere are quite long.  Most of the CO2 emitted is still in the atmosphere 25 years later, and a significant fraction is around for a century.

To some of the earlier posts- there is a difference between climate and weather.  Climate changes are measured in decades- weather is measured on shorter time scales.  Thus, natural processes such as an El Nino event can cool the planet for a year or so, but they do not affect the longer period of climate change.  What's happened that has made the science more solid is that we have now largely measured 3 solar cycles and shown that the sun's output does not correlate to global warming- but CO2 concentration does.

How does CO2 cause global warming?  Here's the physics-  There are two sources of heat for the planet: the sun and radioactive decay which keeps the core molten.  Unless there is a balance between the heat adsorbed from the sun, and heat losses to radiative cooling, the planet warms up.  This assumes that the temperature of the core does not warm significantly over this time period- and there is no evidence to suggest that's happening.  Thus, the sun provides the energy to heat the planet, and what we have to worry about are the cooling processes. 

In a bit more detail, some photons from the sun pass through the atmosphere.  (lots are reflected- thank you ozone layer. and please forgive me if this is in Al Gore's movie- haven't seen it.)  These photons are high enough energy (low wavelength) so that they pass through the CO2 and the rest of the atmosphere to provide color, warmth, sunburn, tans, etc. After the photon hits the ground, water, cloud, etc. it gives up some of its energy and is reemitted at a longer wavelength (lower energy.)  If there's no CO2 in the way- the photon gets all the way to space and is gone.  If however, a photon of the right wavelength hits the CO2, it's reflected back to the earth- and we get toastier since it's energy has to do something.

Nobody is debating this mechanism- hence the comment that if you do- you're arguing with physics.  The only question that was reasonable was if some other processes could cause the warming other than this lack of radiative cooling.  Since the data weren't clear as to what caused previous ice ages and variations in the output of the sun were known, there were some competing hypotheses.  However, better data on orbits and 30 years of monitoring the sun with modern instruments have shown that ice ages are due to orbital variations, and variations in solar output don't correlate with the temperature changes we've seen.  In other words- the modeling is getting stronger, people aren't making guesses anymore.

How was the data analyzed?  All the IPCC reports are meta studies.  In other words- none of the authors actually goes into a laboratory and measures anything.  The data is collected from the literature and consists of ice cores, sea water studies, air temperatures etc.  Once the data has been gathered, its fit to a curve which plots temperature over time.  Recent computer advances have refined the process and reduced the uncertainty.  In order to either not burn people out or to reduce bias, 75% of the people that worked on the 2007 report were NOT affiliated with the 2001 report.  In other words, 3/4ths of the people looking at the data for the 2007 report were a fresh set of eyes.  The response was pretty clear and frightening- CO2 concentrations continue to rise, and global temperatures will continue to rise through this century.  CO2 has a long lifetime in the atmosphere and reducing CO2 emissions immediately will still result in rising temperatures for decades.  In short- the sooner we start reducing CO2, the less chance we have of cooking ourselves or creating massive deserts.

Sam




tweedydaddy -> RE: The myth of the "1970s global cooling hysteria" (12/5/2008 5:35:46 PM)

If you acknowledge evolution then you have to concede that Planet Earth is far from complete, and that therefore things change, which means global warming is only the current fashionable myth.
I don't believe in global warming any more than I believe in global cooling or the eater bunny. The apocalypse lovers will always find their longed for signs of doom.
It's a little bit sad.
Greenfarce and the Fiends of the earth have done their job of distracting everybody from the real problem that will shortly be with us, economic recession partly brought about by the strangling of vital inustries with endless "green " red tape and countless laws limiting how our economies can cope with all our problems.
Funny thing, how these laws don't seem to apply to our rivals in Asia.




samboct -> RE: The myth of the "1970s global cooling hysteria" (12/5/2008 6:38:53 PM)

Tweedy

Your assumption is that green technologies are not competitive economically against more polluting technologies- never mind that you ignore clear science at your own- and everyone elses' peril. 

Let's look at the science first-

Was the connection between cigarette smoking and cancer a myth? 
How about lead and brain damage?
Mercury and brain damage?
Ionizing radiation and cancer as well as teratogenic effects?
Sulfates in coal and acid rain?

Seems to me that science has got a pretty good track record when it comes time to blow the whistle.  Care to come up with any counter examples of a major flub by the modern scientific community?  

Your economic argument is equally flawed- and out of date.  China is belatedly adding in pollution controls.  One of the major differences in the economies of China and the US/Europe is that China's humans have a much smaller economic value than they do in the US and Europe, thus corporations find it cheaper to pay off the deaths - although that's changing.  There is nothing to suggest that green industries will produce energy more expensively in the long run than current technology and a great deal to suggest that energy costs will be reduced in the long run.  After all, fuel for wind plants, solar plants, biomass, (sunpower if done correctly) and geothermal is practically infinite.  (>5 billion years for most- not sure about geothermal.)  Current hydropower is certainly cost competitive with existing fossil fuel/nuclear plants.  If we remove the subsidies for the fossil fuel/nuclear industry and utilize an intelligent grid, its probable that green methods of generating power will be more cost effective.  Note that California's rebates for solar showed exactly that- by reducing the need for additional power lines and generating capacity even the handsome rebate to install solar panels on rooftops was quickly repaid.

China's competitiveness in the manufacturing marketplace has far more to do with the pyramid scheme of our financial industries than their lack of pollution controls.  US/European financial firms managed to convince people that they could deliver rates of return far higher than interest rates- something which has not been possible consistently in that industry as far as I know.  (England tried it prior to WWII.  Banking should be a safe, boring business- technology generates profits.)  If manufacturing in the US and Europe were held to a reasonable ROI, I suspect that they'd be on a far more even footing with Chinese firms.


Sam




corysub -> RE: The myth of the "1970s global cooling hysteria" (12/5/2008 10:05:11 PM)

Blaming humans for Global warming is probably one of the most sucessful scams ever perpertrated on the people of the planet.  The earth goes through cycles and has done so for four billion years.  The impact of humanity on the planet is presumptuous at best.  The worlds climate has changed...we had an ice age only ten thousand years ago....and doubtless we will have another.  The only good thing to possibly come from the present depression in business is that ludicrous alternatie energy sources like wind and solar will be killed in place before they can do damage to the economy. 




variation30 -> RE: The myth of the "1970s global cooling hysteria" (12/5/2008 10:43:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzanneKneeling

There's a lot of misinformation on this chat forum about global warming. I can't be here all the time to clean up after all ofit, but I do what I can. Here's one I've seen brought up twice today. So I'm reposting what I wrote on the thread about the Al Gore court case having been funded by the mining and petroleum industries.

This is one of the favorite myths of the Denial crowd. This notion was never put forth by more than a small handful of scientists. The popular press grabbed it and had a short salacious run with it, but it was never a widely accepted notion in the scientific community. Here are a couple pretty good links summing up the episode. Just something to help keep things in perspective when this gets thrown up there by the obfuscation crowd.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_cooling

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=94


when I see one of these 'scientific' studies about global warming actually take account of the sun's influence on the earth (as opposed to using a solar constant), I'll take them somewhat seriously.




LadyEllen -> RE: The myth of the "1970s global cooling hysteria" (12/6/2008 7:29:56 AM)

Lets dismiss all the global warming stuff.

Nevertheless we find that from a strategic point of view, we'd best get away from reliance on fossil fuels that come from areas of the world which exert unwanted influence over us because of our addiction to their supply. Whether that supply is limited and dwindling - or infinite, is merely an expression of the length of time they will wield this unwanted influence and the degree of unwanted influence they will wield.

Nevertheless we find that from an economic point of view, the technology for the conversion of that supply to the uses for which we require it has likely run its course and that hence it has little further potential to produce the innovation required for future economic growth. Meanwhile green solutions possess such potential to drive technological and thence economic growth for our societies for many years ahead simply in their development to replace those aspects provided now by our fossil fuel supplies, and if we add in the many likely spin off possibilities that will be discovered by such development such solutions have a clear economic advantage.

Nevertheless we find that the countries in which we live now are much more pleasant than they were 30-40 years ago when their economies were based on highly polluting industries, with that pollution almost exclusively derived from the far wider use of fossil fuels. There is therefore also an argument from the point of view of quality of life, to move away from fossil fuels.

There may well be other arguments that dont rely on the often hysterical predictions (which may or may not be accurate) about global warming for why we ought to get away from our fossil fuel economy and into a greener alternative.

The key is that such greener alternatives must provide sufficient prosperity - and added prosperity, such that our economies can grow and our peoples be supported thereby, in a cleaner and more pleasant environment and relieved of undue influence from those who currently control our nations by way of our addiction to fossil fuels.

And coincidentally we may minimise, or even avoid the dire consequences predicted.

E




thishereboi -> RE: The myth of the "1970s global cooling hysteria" (12/6/2008 8:12:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Merc, your arguments against climate change will soon be irrelevent as the dinosaurs whether you are right or wrong. The Chineese have accepted global warming as a fact and have accepted they have to clean up their act on pollution and plan to build a zero emission city with cheap renewable energy within the next 20 years. If they are successful and the west don't get rid of their dependence on fossil fuels, that will put the west squarely in the stone age and hand China the future on a plate because they will be making products even more cheaply than now.

But I still ask those that don't accept climate change, ehow me the respected scientists that say categorily that humans aren't effecting the climate.


You could be right about that point. With the amount of money that people are making off "global warning" they will never admit they might have been wrong. they will just keep getting richer off  of peoples fears.

As to the climate change, yea it's changing. I haven't seen any argue that point. It the reasons it is changing that they argue. and yes respected scientists are saying that. Am I going to provide names and links, uh no. if you want them, google is your best friend.

In the meantime, I think I will go look at all the snow we are getting. Really strange too, we usually don't get this kind of weather until January. Maybe we are flipping back to the 70 and its really  a new ice age I should be watching for.




samboct -> RE: The myth of the "1970s global cooling hysteria" (12/6/2008 9:39:39 AM)

this here boi

People making money off global warming?  Have you looked at the profits of oil companies?  Coal companies, natural gas firms etc all seem to have done quite well, even with the recent price drops.  Furthermore, these firms have been given massive subsidies with leases on federal lands or having the military protect trade routes.  These companies are making orders of magnitude more money than the struggling wind industry, although solar seems to be growing OK- not great, but OK.  (oil companies dwarf the renewables industries.)  People have made money off of biofuels, but they've also reduced the amount of oil we import. 

One industry which is using global warming to try an attempt a comeback is the nuclear power industry.  At the MRS meeting we had a forum hosted by Ira Flatow on what do with nuclear waste.  It was more reminiscent of the Three Stooges than any science debate I've ever seen.  The nuclear industry has been handed a blank check in terms of waste disposal, since that's the responsibility of the ever lovin' US taxpayer.  Nobody's talking about the costs of decommisioning plants or the tailings from uranium mines.  Even so, this industry needed the massive loan guarantees courtesy of the 2005 energy bill before anybody would think about new construction.  The economics of nuclear power are far from clear- the claim that nuclear power is the lowest cost option are based on using only two components of the expense: capital construction and fuel costs.  It looks like the other costs are the responsibility of the taxpayer- the aforementioned waste disposal, but also insurance.

As Lady E points out-the economics of green power make a lot of sense.  The major obstacles at this point are not technical, but political- especially with massive subsidies in various forms to existing companies.  If we took this money and used it to help build newer, more innovative firms, we'd be well on the way to providing lots of the good new jobs we need.  (Yes, I think Obama's on the right path- the question now is can he execute?)  One guy who's done an interesting job of the economics of changeover is Amory Lovins (yes, he spoke at the MRS meeting as well.)  He was pushing his book, Winning the Oil Endgame.  I'm going to have to check it out.


Sam

PS- A hysterical presentation would not have had such impact as Susan Solomon's talk.  Susan Solomon's talk was clear, concise, and without hyperbole. 




thishereboi -> RE: The myth of the "1970s global cooling hysteria" (12/6/2008 3:23:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

this here boi

People making money off global warming?
Yes, they are
Have you looked at the profits of oil companies?
that has nothing to do with the above sentence.
 




corysub -> RE: The myth of the "1970s global cooling hysteria" (12/7/2008 7:04:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Lets dismiss all the global warming stuff.

Nevertheless we find that from a strategic point of view, we'd best get away from reliance on fossil fuels that come from areas of the world which exert unwanted influence over us because of our addiction to their supply. Whether that supply is limited and dwindling - or infinite, is merely an expression of the length of time they will wield this unwanted influence and the degree of unwanted influence they will wield.

Nevertheless we find that from an economic point of view, the technology for the conversion of that supply to the uses for which we require it has likely run its course and that hence it has little further potential to produce the innovation required for future economic growth. Meanwhile green solutions possess such potential to drive technological and thence economic growth for our societies for many years ahead simply in their development to replace those aspects provided now by our fossil fuel supplies, and if we add in the many likely spin off possibilities that will be discovered by such development such solutions have a clear economic advantage.

Nevertheless we find that the countries in which we live now are much more pleasant than they were 30-40 years ago when their economies were based on highly polluting industries, with that pollution almost exclusively derived from the far wider use of fossil fuels. There is therefore also an argument from the point of view of quality of life, to move away from fossil fuels.

There may well be other arguments that dont rely on the often hysterical predictions (which may or may not be accurate) about global warming for why we ought to get away from our fossil fuel economy and into a greener alternative.

The key is that such greener alternatives must provide sufficient prosperity - and added prosperity, such that our economies can grow and our peoples be supported thereby, in a cleaner and more pleasant environment and relieved of undue influence from those who currently control our nations by way of our addiction to fossil fuels.

And coincidentally we may minimise, or even avoid the dire consequences predicted.

E


The points you make regarding "quality of life" benefits are well taken.  We have seen the USA and a number of other countries benefit from increased pollution standards, our rivers are running cleaner...you can't walk across Lake Erie as you once could, and exhaust from cars has been reduced significantly.  Interestingly,  all of this has been done with "productive, profit motivated industry" pushed by more stringent government regulation, and not by the use of "windmills".tidal energy, and solar cells.   We are in the midst of one of the greatest financial implosions in all of our lifetimes and my concern is that the politicians will take advantage of such increased control over spending tax payer money that billions will be sqandered.  Take windmills, for example, We would need tens of thousands of windmills to provide the power an economy like the USA requires, along with significant infrastructure.  However, I have not heard one "expert" in Congress discuss the engineering requirements of windmills.  The USA does not produce the very large and finely engineered "ball bearings" that allow those bird killing panels to turn...only Germany and Japan do that...and the lead time for these bearings is over a year! 
We should focus, instead, on nuclear which is clean and does not add Co2 to the atmosphere.  Clean coal technologies should also be utilized and wherever possible retrofitted into exhisting facilities.  We should drill for oil and gas (gas is also a very clean burner) and diminsh the impact of OPEC and Russia on world oil markets.




UncleNasty -> RE: The myth of the "1970s global cooling hysteria" (12/7/2008 7:45:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The only difference is, that if I am wrong, I will look stupid,



meat, I don't consider you to be stupid. I've been reading your posts for sometime now and that descriptor is not one I'd apply to you. But....

Irrespective of the truth, or lack thereof, of the global warming issue, your statement above is completely untrue.

If you don't, can't or won't acknowledge the myriad ways the issue has impacted our society, and other societies, my making a partial or complete list of such would be of little effect.

OHUN




Hippiekinkster -> RE: The myth of the "1970s global cooling hysteria" (12/7/2008 12:49:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

Blaming humans for Global warming is probably one of the most sucessful scams ever perpertrated on the people of the planet.  The earth goes through cycles and has done so for four billion years.  The impact of humanity on the planet is presumptuous at best.  The worlds climate has changed...we had an ice age only ten thousand years ago....and doubtless we will have another.  The only good thing to possibly come from the present depression in business is that ludicrous alternatie energy sources like wind and solar will be killed in place before they can do damage to the economy. 
Do you have a link wherein an atmospheric scientist blames humans for GCC?




JennieSlave -> RE: The myth of the "1970s global cooling hysteria" (12/7/2008 1:06:20 PM)

The Ozone "layer" does not reflect Photons.... it ABSORBS Ultraviolet Wavelength Light.




Rule -> RE: The myth of the "1970s global cooling hysteria" (12/7/2008 1:17:47 PM)

It is snowing in the Swiss alps.




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