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RE: Face it, Game Over, The Border is remaining open - 10/18/2007 5:14:22 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Gotta really smile. Aren't the Mexicans only taking back land that was really theirs in the first place before the gringos  lack of respect for borders robbed them of it?


Just a second though - my impression was that Mexico lost a war with the US a while back, and part of the settlement involved a bunch of regions being ceded to the US?

If such a process is illegal such that former possesors need not recognise the transfer of land by way of war settlements, then we're all in trouble I'd say. Where I live was part of Wales until mediaeval times.

and then there's Israel for a start, and interestingly also Germany who by rights own half of Poland. And then Poland, who by rights own half of Belorussia and some of Ukraine. And Hungary who by rights own northwest Romania.... and so on.

E


I was actually having a bit of a laugh when I mentioned it but you make a serious point. I guess the point depends on the spirit of the settlement. Germany has accepted the post war borders and have ceded any claim to their former territories in the east. Poland are happy with the post war land settlement as are most other east European countries. There will always be some minor disputes because of minorities left on the wrong side of some borders during settlements but all EU countries have to accept their borders on entry to the EU as settled. The Palestinians haven't ceded any territory to Israel, they claim and still maintain their land was stolen from them and there is enough historical documentation to back up their claim that that is exactly what happened. Therefore the dispute is ongoing. As I understand it there was much Mexican resentment over the settlement with the US and felt the settlement was made under duress.

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RE: Face it, Game Over, The Border is remaining open - 10/18/2007 5:16:25 AM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		I know a guy kicked out of Canada for living there and not being a citizen. He should have gone thru the ligit process.

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RE: Face it, Game Over, The Border is remaining open - 10/18/2007 5:16:40 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

As I understand it there was much Mexican resentment over the settlement with the US and felt the settlement was made under duress.


well.... yeah, of course it was under duress. Thats generally the nature of a war settlement.

E

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RE: Face it, Game Over, The Border is remaining open - 10/18/2007 5:20:52 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

As I understand it there was much Mexican resentment over the settlement with the US and felt the settlement was made under duress.


well.... yeah, of course it was under duress. Thats generally the nature of a war settlement.

E


Then you can't expect the people to accept the final settlement and they have a moral legitimacy to their willingness to flout the law of the new masters. Of course they have to face up to the fact that in such cases might is right and there could be not very nice consequences.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/18/2007 5:21:15 AM >

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RE: Face it, Game Over, The Border is remaining open - 10/18/2007 5:28:40 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

As I understand it there was much Mexican resentment over the settlement with the US and felt the settlement was made under duress.


well.... yeah, of course it was under duress. Thats generally the nature of a war settlement.

E


Then you can't expect the people to accept the final settlement and they have a moral legitimacy to their willingness to flout the law of the new masters. Of course they have to face up to the fact that in such cases might is right and there could be not very nice consequences.


So, what youre saying is, that the war settlement in this instance is now rejected and therefore the war is back on - made so by the actions of those crossing the border illegally?

Hence, the illegal immigrants are then either agents of Mexico (big war) or are itinerant terrorists (asymmetrical war) - and either way they are either enemy combatants or illegal enemy combatants and must be treated as such?

And that the failure of US government to take this stance is akin to treason, in that they are aiding and abetting an enemy of the state?

Interesting......

E



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RE: Face it, Game Over, The Border is remaining open - 10/18/2007 5:33:17 AM   
YesMistressIrish


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

The problem is not that they seek a better life, it's that in doing so, they make OUR lives WORSE! Crime, closed hospitals, our welfare system bled dry, and minor annoyances like "Press 1 for English"--I'm in America, FFS! What do they expect me to speak, Swahili? (On second thought, don't answer that!)
Oh, and they demand special treatment, everything translated into Spanish for them, at our expense, because while they claim to be as smart as us, 159 years is CLEARLY not enough time to learn English, nor to learn to obey our laws! Heck, if anything, they actively FLAUNT their ability to break our laws without consequence, such as marching under an enemy nation's flag, spouting Anti-American slogans, my favorite being, "We'll bring America's economy to its knees"--isn't that supposed to be Bin Laden's shtick? And that enigmatic "Si Se Puedo" ("Yes We Can")--yes we can what? Invade a country that hates you? Import the culture that caused your poverty so that you can avoid learning the language of the country you're invading? Break the law, then claim your family, or your poverty, as valid reasons to break the law, and accuse anyone trying to ENFORCE the law of "racism"?
Criminal isn't a race, it's a choice! They CHOSE to invade our country, they CHOSE not to learn our language, they CHOSE to break our laws! Why is the consequence racist? Perhaps because they're invading a primarily white country? Is race the new diplomatic immunity?

                                                            

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RE: Face it, Game Over, The Border is remaining open - 10/18/2007 7:11:58 AM   
EPGAH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
As I understand it there was much Mexican resentment over the settlement with the US and felt the settlement was made under duress.

Oddly, they only disbelieve that concessions made under duress are not binding between NATIONS, as there is a fairly large contingent of Mexicans who commit robberies, whether personal (mugging), carjacking, home invasions, convenience-stores, even bank-robberies. These concessions were made under duress, and so are not binding, but whenever we try to punish the invaders, we're racist.
As LadyEllen pointed out, the ones that flout our war-ending agreement are obviously enemies, whether with the open or tacit backing of the Mexican government (And I use that term loosely), or without it. If the former, then the war is back on, and it should be open season on ALL Mexicans, as we cannot allow ANY of them in our country, OR just punish the terrorist ones?
Heck, let's have the Mexican-American War, Round 2...Only this time, let's conquer ALL their territory, so we have a much smaller southern border to patrol. Although it will take a few BILLION to bring Mexico up to our standards, legally and infrastructurally, that will be faster and cheaper in the long run than the slow exsanguination Mexico is doing to us now.
Alternately, we could simply exterminate all Mexicans who don't surrender..."Submit or Die"...thereby preventing a third border-war, and granting slaves--er--"cheap illegal labor" to all those who "need" it!

As to that "moral authority" part, while part of me laughs openly about "moral" used in the same sentence as Mexicans (A country synonymous with thugs, drugs, and whores, and currently the source of 60% of the illegals invading America--whose army varies between 12 MILLION and 40 MILLION!), it does bring up an interesting point: Does Italy, having at one point ruled more or less the entire continent of Eurasia, have a "moral" claim on that area, or at least on the profits therefrom? Does Germany? (Since after all, their empire didn't crumble from within, it took a lot of Americans' "interference" to finally stop! Would that make their claim more valid?) Doesn't Taiwan have a "moral" claim to push the Communists back OUT of China and reclaim their former realm?

< Message edited by EPGAH -- 10/18/2007 7:17:50 AM >

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RE: Face it, Game Over, The Border is remaining open - 10/18/2007 7:15:31 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

So, what youre saying is, that the war settlement in this instance is now rejected and therefore the war is back on - made so by the actions of those crossing the border illegally?

Hence, the illegal immigrants are then either agents of Mexico (big war) or are itinerant terrorists (asymmetrical war) - and either way they are either enemy combatants or illegal enemy combatants and must be treated as such?

And that the failure of US government to take this stance is akin to treason, in that they are aiding and abetting an enemy of the state?

Interesting......

E


There is war settlement and war settlement, some are seen as just and legitimate some aren't. That is why the ME has an ongoing situation, Israel's claim on land is not seen as legitimate to the Arabs and there has never been any real attempt at a just settlement. The Irish never accepted British rule or British plantation of settlers so that feud went on for hundreds of years, eventually wearing the British establishment down, even though more Irish live in the UK than in Ireland. It is not so much what governments accept but what is pewrceived as legitimate and just at street level that makes the difference I guess.

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RE: Face it, Game Over, The Border is remaining open - 10/18/2007 7:19:09 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

Oddly, they only disbelieve that concessions made under duress are not binding between NATIONS, as there is a fairly large contingent of Mexicans who commit robberies, whether personal (mugging), carjacking, home invasions, convenience-stores, even bank-robberies. These concessions were made under duress, and so are not binding, but whenever we try to punish the invaders, we're racist.


Come on. This is a pretty racist view. I guess you are going to say blacks are more inherently criminal than whites because there are more of them in jail. I think you'd make a good NAZI.

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RE: Face it, Game Over, The Border is remaining open - 10/18/2007 7:26:40 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


There is war settlement and war settlement, some are seen as just and legitimate some aren't. That is why the ME has an ongoing situation, Israel's claim on land is not seen as legitimate to the Arabs and there has never been any real attempt at a just settlement. The Irish never accepted British rule or British plantation of settlers so that feud went on for hundreds of years, eventually wearing the British establishment down, even though more Irish live in the UK than in Ireland. It is not so much what governments accept but what is pewrceived as legitimate and just at street level that makes the difference I guess.


Oh, I see what youre saying - basically, the people are not the government and have other ideas on the matter. But this is wholly unsatisfactory. In the Irish instance, there had already been a settlement and in the end even the Irish government recognised it had to do something to combat those fighting for union with the Republic - I wouldnt be at all surprised if fellowship with the UK in the EU played a part. For Mexico in this instance to allow its people to attempt to revoke a legal agreement, whatever the circumstances of its drafting, is exactly as if the Irish government had done nothing about the IRA, and given NAFTA surely they are obliged to do something?

In the end though, I see quite a few southwestern states rejoining Mexico. As the Mexican ethnic group gains ascendancy in terms of votes, the decision will be made, quite democratically to leave the US and join Mexico. All perfectly legitimate. Indeed, this is why I see the IRA turning to democracy - they know they will get their way through votes as the demographic changes.

E

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RE: Face it, Game Over, The Border is remaining open - 10/18/2007 7:30:01 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

s
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
There is war settlement and war settlement, some are seen as just and legitimate some aren't. That is why the ME has an ongoing situation, Israel's claim on land is not seen as legitimate to the Arabs and there has never been any real attempt at a just settlement. The Irish never accepted British rule or British plantation of settlers so that feud went on for hundreds of years, eventually wearing the British establishment down, even though more Irish live in the UK than in Ireland. It is not so much what governments accept but what is pewrceived as legitimate and just at street level that makes the difference I guess.



Its one thing to be a religion that is mixed in with the culture and sharing the same land as all other religions each with their own places of worship and then there is israel which is a religious state.

Lets section off texas create a sovereign country for the catholics call godville.   Jews are not a nationality like an indie, hispanic, nigerian etc, hence not a race, its a religious group.

A sovereign religious group.

Would we want godville here in the us protected by china with nukes?

I think not

The Arabs are correct and justified in their position!






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RE: Face it, Game Over, The Border is remaining open - 10/18/2007 7:53:54 AM   
EPGAH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
And indeed, this is all I expect. I dont expect people who come here to become English (which is an ethnic description) but to become British in respect of our laws, customs and so on. And I'm afraid, they have to learn English - not because its the greatest language in the world, but because they cannot possibly participate as I would want them to, unless they speak the language.
Wow, you mean you won't print signs in the languages of your invaders, or eat the costs of translating your bureaucratic forms--including those for "public aid" into the languages of anyone who demands (Odd how they believe they're in a position to demand) it, at taxpayer expense?
The problem with illegals though - and we have plenty - is the question of what one is to do with them? Its easy to say, no health care and no education (as examples) but are we seriously saying we would deny treatment to some in pain? Are we seriously saying that we want the offspring of illegals to grow up into lives of criminality - which they would have to, lacking any ability to provide for themselves otherwise?
That's the fun part of an illegal invasion--the guilt! "Oh, I'm in pain! I'm suffering! You're 'morally' obligated to help us immoral invaders!"
Remember, YOU didn't cause that pain, THEY did, or it was a "preexisting condition" (The way many insurance companies avoid paying out, and isn't welfare just an insurance THEY don't have to pay into to collect on? Better than the lottery!
How can "starving" invaders still maintain the biological processes necessary to breed? That's always been a mystery to me!
And the other problem of course, is proving who is illegal. My brother works in UK immigration and used to do deportations. Illegals generally will destroy all their papers on entry to the UK - so we cant prove where they came from, so cant deport them. And then there was the case the other week, of a nice young lady entering Birmingham airport on a flight from Portugal; she looked Portugese, she spoke the language, she had local knowledge of Lisbon to reel off to prove she was Portugese, but no passport. Turned out she was Brazilian trying to enter illegally. It was pure luck she was stopped - many many more must get through.
Well, then you need to make a "best guess" and deport them to where you THINK they came from...even if you "guess" wrong, they wanted to invade another country, and they'll still get their wish, just not US--er--BRITAIN anymore!
Why is there even an argument over deportation? Our digestive systems "deport" whatever doesn't assimilate (And whoever doesn't, is literally full of shit! ), and even our immune systems work on an "assimilate or destroy" status...Since illegals CLAIM to be more intelligent than food or germs, they should know to assimilate or stay out, right?
E

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RE: Face it, Game Over, The Border is remaining open - 10/18/2007 7:56:59 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Oh dont worry Epgah

we have everything in English, Welsh, Gaelic, Punjabi, Urdu, Hindi, Chinese, Polish and a lot of others.

what makes me laugh is that they print "if you would like this leafet in another language, just ask". I laugh, because I wonder how someone is going to understand that, to get their leaflet.....

E

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RE: Face it, Game Over, The Border is remaining open - 10/18/2007 8:01:56 AM   
EPGAH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH
Oddly, they only disbelieve that concessions made under duress are not binding between NATIONS, as there is a fairly large contingent of Mexicans who commit robberies, whether personal (mugging), carjacking, home invasions, convenience-stores, even bank-robberies. These concessions were made under duress, and so are not binding, but whenever we try to punish the invaders, we're racist.

Come on. This is a pretty racist view. I guess you are going to say blacks are more inherently criminal than whites because there are more of them in jail. I think you'd make a good NAZI.

Ah, yes, the racist-Nazi argument. It's hard to tell whether you're being serious, or tongue-in-cheek on this. I will have to assume it's the latter, given this thread...
Please remember, Mexican is not a RACE. It is a declaration of loyalty to an (increasingly hostile) country called Mexico. Mexico allegedly believes that they want to be "a good neighbor" to America, yet holds the opposite view that America "robbed" them, so any robberies they commit are karmically justified...
And LadyEllen, you may be right, Mexico's strategy seems to be "if you can't beat'em, outbreed'em and whine'em to death in the political arenas"
However, once they actually DO takeover California, Arizona, Texas, what will stop them from turning those into staging areas for invading MORE American lands, since they don't seem to have any sense of maintenance (i.e. areas currently occupied by Mexicans turn into mimics of the third-world hellhole they supposedly "needed" to escape, regardless of law or people in their way, or in the way of their bullets...)
So basically, they'll take over lands that "used to be theirs"(TM), corrupt and destroy those, then make a grab for traditionally American lands...Like say, Hazelton, Pennsylvania? (Look up the controversy over their "new" housing law, which is a direct carbon-copy of the Federal law AGAINST harboring illegals, but since it's a state doing it--who might actually ENFORCE it--it's evil!) Monett, Missouri? How deep into America will they conquer?
(Monett, Missouri is a city that illegal Mexicans have almost entirely taken over...Our own Los Angeles, if you will, but without the effective and controversial police-force. If ICE agents' careers had anything at all to do with the number of illegals they caught, they could just raid that one city, and make their careers! Which is a certain indication they will do no such thing!)

< Message edited by EPGAH -- 10/18/2007 8:06:49 AM >

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RE: Face it, Game Over, The Border is remaining open - 10/18/2007 9:04:31 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

However, once they actually DO takeover California, Arizona, Texas


Rotsa Ruck!

Until they have the vote, they can't do shit. To get the vote, they need to become Citizens. Once they're citizens, they're not TAKING OVER anything, as they're already tax-slaves on the rolls.

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RE: Face it, Game Over, The Border is remaining open - 10/18/2007 9:20:55 AM   
EPGAH


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Status: offline 		They don't need to be citizens...New York has found a loophole: Give illegals driver's licenses!
Once they have a New York driver's license, they can goto some state with a motor-voter law, and trade it for THAT state's driver's license! (To prevent potential discrimination, the driver's licenses for the illegals will not have any distinguishing marks...No Scarlet Letter!)
Illegals will go to any length to gain wealth and power from a country that's not theirs...Some might say they already have...and, of course, they can get organizations like the American Criminal Liberties Union on their side, and REALLY make trouble for the law-abiders and lawmakers...Did you lookup about Hazelton?

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RE: Face it, Game Over, The Border is remaining open - 10/18/2007 9:31:47 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

What walls are you talking about?
We have open borders, anyone and everyone is free to come here.



i cant believe anyone is still arguing about illegals when the NAU plans have been long exposed LOL


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RE: Face it, Game Over, The Border is remaining open - 10/18/2007 9:45:04 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

be willing to live and abide by the current laws and government.

Including the laws making most of this lifestyle illegal?

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RE: Face it, Game Over, The Border is remaining open - 10/18/2007 10:26:06 AM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		Canadians arent busting their way in.  why?  maybe Canada built a nice place to live? hmm. i want Mexican coastline!

If more Americans were there- it would be a splendid place.

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RE: Face it, Game Over, The Border is remaining open - 10/18/2007 10:58:59 AM   
EPGAH


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Status: offline 		Americans aren't allowed to OWN land in Mexico...They have a temporary loophole in that MEXICAN-owned banks can hold land "in trust" for Americans...BUT it can be yanked away at any time! Remember that they have no laws prohibiting illegal seizure!
And about Americans improving Mexico, they'd probably resist it every step of the way, and we couldn't do anything about it: Mexico blocks ANY immigrants, legal or illegal, from holding public graft--I mean office!
You might even say Mexico's laws are pure, institutionalized bigotry--or does that label only stick to Americans and OUR law-enforcers?

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