Why do so many view submission as a gift?

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Why do so many view submission as a gift? - 7/30/2005 11:18:09 PM

LordTemporal

Posts: 12
Joined: 1/1/2004
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I have always had an unusual outlook on many different "accepted" tenets of the lifestyle. As an example, I see many subs that refer to their submission to their Dom/me as a "gift". I've never understood this attitude.

Does the submissive feel that by bestowing a "gift" upon the dom, that her act of submission makes him beholden to her for something, as if it were all her giving..and him receiving?

My dictionary defines a gift as "Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation." In other words, something that is given, with no expectation of anything in return. How many of you would give a birthday gift with the caveat that the other person MUST give you one in return? Also, anyone that has ever watched Judge Judy knows that once a gift is given, it becomes the sole property of the recipient, to use or dispose of as he/she wishes. How then can submission be considered a "gift" in any sense of the word?

Certainly, when a sub offers his/her submission to a Dom/me, there IS an expectation of something in return, there must be. The sub has the expectation that their safe word will be respected and that their limits will be respected. Just as the Dom/me has the expectation of service and obedience from the sub. So how can anything given to another conditionally be a real gift?

Additionally, if a sub's limits and safeword are not respected, the sub can certainly withdraw their submission entirely and leave his/her Dom/me, or can even request that there be additional limits put in place. Since once a true gift is given, it becomes the property of the recipient, how then can a submissive withdraw the "gift"? The simple answer is that a real gift cannot be reclaimed.

Instead, simply put, both the Dom/me and the sub have expectations, and those expectations must be continuously fulfilled, else the relationship can and should end. I suggest that the submission and dominance dynamic in a D/s relationship is instead an exchange of services, the sub offering his/her submission, and in return gains the dominance from his/her One. The dominant provides control and safety, and receives from his submissive in turn. Each giving and taking from the relationship in an equally beneficial way.

In my own view, to call submission a gift just tends to overly romanticize what is truly taking place, and tends to present the sub as being the benevolent one, while the Dom/me is viewed as the crass taker, giving nothing in return.

Post #: 1

RE: Why do so many view submission as a gift? - 7/30/2005 11:27:42 PM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
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Its been hashed out several times already.

Here...
Submission a Gift

and here...
Gift or not....

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to LordTemporal)

Post #: 2

RE: Why do so many view submission as a gift? - 7/31/2005 12:04:41 AM

LordTemporal

Posts: 12
Joined: 1/1/2004
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thanks...I just found the forum search function here...sorry to have restated, or restarted the debate...

LT

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 3

RE: Why do so many view submission as a gift? - 7/31/2005 12:39:01 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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I would reply by asking: “Who has the greater strength in a TPE, the slave giving her all to the Master/Mistress? OR The Master/Mistress who is willing to accept that awesome responsibility?”

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to LordTemporal)

Post #: 4

RE: Why do so many view submission as a gift? - 7/31/2005 3:01:06 AM

Sabella

Posts: 265
Joined: 7/26/2005
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You seem cynical LordTemporal :)

To view D/s as merely an "exchange of services" would be rather cold and unemotional - and the relationships are anything but that!

I've never considered my submissive nature to be a gift to anyone but MYSELF. I'm submissive in many areas of my life, not just when someone is weilding a flogger or scowling at me. It's a gentleness of spirit, an acceptance, and yes a more giving attitude I think that can and does influence me daily. I think this makes me a more receptive person, a better friend, a kinder stranger.

Even the smallest "gift" can be of great worth. Which do you value more? the obligatory gift you get from a relative you barely know every holiday that you know cost alot of money, or the small thing you get from someone who cares about you that may not have cost a dime other than their time and attention?

Frankly I think linking the many indepth things a submissive "gives" to something that can be bought at the Walmart is uncompairable - but that's just my view on it.

We could all go thru the motions, giving as little as possible but is that what we want? Honestly I think the good Dom gives MORE, because of the sheer energy, control, patience that must be expended. But again perhaps that's just been my experience with it.

_____________________________

“The giant Grof was hit in one eye by a stone,
and that eye turned inward so that it looked into his mind and he died of what he saw there.”
From The Forgotten Beasts of Eld, by Patricia A. McKillip

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 5

RE: Why do so many view submission as a gift? - 7/31/2005 6:40:05 AM

MstrssPassion

Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline

I agree... a gift is given with no strings, no expectations of anything in return.

I also agree that the 'exchange' is far more than services rendered... well, unless they are just involved for the sake of playing. If just playing, gift could be appropriate. s exchange

If exploring the deeper side of D/s-M/s there is an exchange of compassion, respect, trust & much much more.

Often a gift is a trinket of appreciation. I do not see the relationship-minded dominant & submissive as gifting each other, they are sharing & exchanging of themselves deeply, entirely & profoundly. I would much rather accept/receive my sub as a whole than be gifted with a mere trinket of appreciation.

MstrssPassion

(in reply to Sabella)

Post #: 6

RE: Why do so many view submission as a gift? - 7/31/2005 8:16:55 AM

perfection20005

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I'll have to agree that I don't see my submission as a gift either. Just as I don't see my Master's domination as a gift. Its just an agreement between the two of us, I do believe that he has a far more greater responsibility than I do.

perfection

(in reply to LordTemporal)

Post #: 7

RE: Why do so many view submission as a gift? - 7/31/2005 8:32:59 AM

zaynab

Posts: 377
Joined: 6/20/2005
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*mental pic of a hot sex slave in a Gorian position with a huge bright red Christmas bow taped on her ass

(in reply to LordTemporal)

Post #: 8

RE: Why do so many view submission as a gift? - 7/31/2005 8:54:04 AM

LadySonelle

Posts: 280
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: Santa Fe NM
Status: offline

The analogy of a birthday or Xmas gift is a good one, though, in comparison with the gift of the smb or slave.

You do not give a gift with the expectation that the person recieving it will open it, look at it without smiling, and just set it aside and never touvh it again.

Even if the giver expects nothing "in return" s/he DOeS *expect* (and is disappointed wnen s/he does not get) a smile, a happy acceptance, a verbal "Oh, this is lovely! I'll use it always!" and the highest praise is when the giver enters the recipient's homer, days, months or years later and sees their gift proudly in use!

The Old Icelandic Rune Poem has this to say: "Beware the Gift (Gehbo) for a gift demands a gift."

When a sub or slave gives hir submission to the top, s/he is anticipating that the gift will be accepted, utilised and enjoyed! "Oh! The VERY thing I need! A sweet plump little ass for my paddles! How THOUGHTFUL! *whack!* Thank you!"

Gifts are given in the hope of that gift binding the two persons together more closely. They are given for an emotional return or to demonstrate emotional affection. A gift always asks a gift in return and in the very best relationships, a gift is alway reciprocal.

Lady Sonelle

_____________________________

Come to My domain and read My Lessons online! http://www.LadySonelle.com then place yourself beneath My loving Hand!

(in reply to LordTemporal)

Post #: 9

RE: Why do so many view submission as a gift? - 7/31/2005 1:23:48 PM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabella
To view D/s as merely an "exchange of services" would be rather cold and unemotional - and the relationships are anything but that!

I've thought about this, and I think it comes down to a difference of perspective.

Logic / reason, which by its nature is unemotional, says, "submission and dominance in a relationship are an exchange, each gives something to the other in exchange for something received." This is a true statement.

Emotion / Romanticism, which by its nature is not logical, says, "submission is a gift, it is deeply personal, it has value because of the beauty of its unselfish offering." And this too is true.

I thought about this and could see both sides of it, perhaps because while I have a logical and rational mind I also have a hopelessly romantic heart. I looked for a word, a metaphor, that perhaps could bridge the gap and this is what finally came to me.

Dominance and submission are a symbiosis, to halves of a whole that cannot happily exist without the other; each gives something the other needs so that both are sustained and flourish. When they are joined in this way, it creates something of beauty. When they are joined but only one gives its part, it becomes something ugly. This appeals to both the rational and the romantic angels of my nature.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to Sabella)

Post #: 10

RE: Why do so many view submission as a gift? - 8/1/2005 4:06:28 AM

ElektraUkM

Posts: 309
Joined: 2/19/2005
Status: offline

Something is definitely 'given' when one submits to another. Even if that 'something' is as simple, and pragmatic as Permission. To talk of giving permission is not romantic nonsense, but a simple, everyday saying.

So, having said that something is given, it's a short (mental) step to begin talking about 'gifts' (even if that is not strictly true).

I would imagine that is where the idea of the 'gift of submission' comes from.

~ Elektra

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 11

RE: Why do so many view submission as a gift? - 8/1/2005 4:16:45 PM

synrgy33

Posts: 61
Joined: 4/4/2005
Status: offline

Why can't submission be a gift? Each time I submit/bottom to a Dominant I am giving a part of myself to them. I'm sharing something very intimate, something very special.

A new girl to the lifestyle several years ago jumped in with sub frenzy and wore herself out going through Dom after Dom. Usually they'd scene with her then fuck her. After awhile, she was "used" up so to speak. She asked me why Dominants sought me out to play with them. I tried explaining that my submission is something I can give. It can't be taken, it can't be demanded by just ANYONE. OH sure, SadistDave can demand it and take it all He wants, but that is our own personal relationship. I'm talking about our Dominant friends at play parties or whatever. When I bottom to them, and they Top to me, we're exchanging our power, or however you wish to term it.

I think that when my Dominant Tops me, and gives to me of His time, His patience, His guidance, His Power, He is giving to me the greatest gift of all.. Himself. *smiles*

That's how I look at submission as being a gift. And no it's not something once I give, I want back.

Proudly belonging to SadistDave,
stephanie~SD~

_____________________________

"You have to get past the pleasure stage, until you reach the stage of tears.Some people are always grumbling because roses have thorns. I am thankful that thorns have roses." -:Allophones Karr:-

(in reply to ElektraUkM)

Post #: 12

RE: Why do so many view submission as a gift? - 8/1/2005 4:53:33 PM

ScooterTrash

Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline

I'm inclined to agree with synergy and Elecktra..something is actually exchanged and the intent is not to get it back. There are those of us who are very Dominant and can be quite persuasive and convincing, but the submission must still be given, it cannot be simply be whisked away with the wave of a hand or the strike of a flogger. When I am given that control, I truely feel I have received something precious, something that I could not have obtained without it being given to me. I have to believe that this is the ultimate sacrifice of a submissive, the giving up of the control of themselves, to a worthy recipient. Thus, the gift; you can accept submission, but you can't take it.

_____________________________

Formal symbolic representation of qualitative entities is doomed to its rightful place of minor significance in a world where flowers and beautiful women abound.
-Albert Einstein

(in reply to synrgy33)

Post #: 13

RE: Why do so many view submission as a gift? - 8/1/2005 5:03:48 PM

dominmd

Posts: 474
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline

To give someone complete control over you is a gift maybe to both the sub and to the Dom. A sub would be giving herself a gift by letting go and trusting another with their health safety and well being. A Dom is being given the gift by the sub in the form of trust, loyalty, and the very act of putting one's self under the control of another is a gift to the person doing the controlling.

I can control you, I can make you do what I want. But for a sub to do so without being forced or coerced is a gift saying "I trust you and am willing to do whatever you desire".

My gift to any sub would be to be caring and nurturing, compassionate, loving and of course my trust. Feelings and emotions can be gifts to each other. Her being satisfied and fullfilled is also a gift to me. It lets me know I am doing good.

(in reply to ScooterTrash)

Post #: 14

RE: Why do so many view submission as a gift? - 8/1/2005 5:24:02 PM

zaynab

Posts: 377
Joined: 6/20/2005
Status: offline

Good points, friends...

Giving this some more thought, I would say that me being a sub is still "just the way I am"... so that in itself is not a gift...

but when I am "anticipating my Master's needs" (physical, emotional, social, etc.), I guess THAT could be viewed as a gift. Anticipating his needs and going far beyond what his expectations are may be gifts because I consciously extend myself for his satisfaction, before, during and after his requests or demands are known...

but when it all gets down to it... I'm still a sub and my submissiveness is automatically there just from owning me.

I'm faking intelligence here... hope I pulled it off.

(in reply to LordTemporal)

Post #: 15

RE: Why do so many view submission as a gift? - 8/1/2005 6:36:02 PM

fourpeas

Posts: 243
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadySonelle

The analogy of a birthday or Xmas gift is a good one, though, in comparison with the gift of the smb or slave.

You do not give a gift with the expectation that the person recieving it will open it, look at it without smiling, and just set it aside and never touvh it again.

Even if the giver expects nothing "in return" s/he DOeS *expect* (and is disappointed wnen s/he does not get) a smile, a happy acceptance, a verbal "Oh, this is lovely! I'll use it always!" and the highest praise is when the giver enters the recipient's homer, days, months or years later and sees their gift proudly in use!

The Old Icelandic Rune Poem has this to say: "Beware the Gift (Gehbo) for a gift demands a gift."

When a sub or slave gives hir submission to the top, s/he is anticipating that the gift will be accepted, utilised and enjoyed! "Oh! The VERY thing I need! A sweet plump little ass for my paddles! How THOUGHTFUL! *whack!* Thank you!"

Gifts are given in the hope of that gift binding the two persons together more closely. They are given for an emotional return or to demonstrate emotional affection. A gift always asks a gift in return and in the very best relationships, a gift is alway reciprocal.

Lady Sonelle

This is such a wonderful, insightful, and thoughtful way of looking at gifts. I thank you for this post LadySonelle!!! This expresses what I have been meaning to say about why I view submission as a gift. I said something on another post about how gifts aren't always without strings or meanings and this is SO much more eloquent than what I said. Thank you!!!

(in reply to LadySonelle)

Post #: 16

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