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Lifestyle References are a thing of the Past - 7/30/2005 11:21:56 PM   
LordTemporal


Posts: 12
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I used to suggest that subs check the references of a potential Master or Mistress before meeting for the first time. This used to be a great idea because if they had confirmation from another lifestyler that the person was safe, that would hopefully mean the potential Dom/me was at least real. Nowadays it's meaningless. I say this because of something I am seeing more and more often.

The trolls are doing something to give themselves sterling references by creating several online profiles...FEMALE profiles...and then they claim to have owned the "subs" the profiles represent...so, when you ask a potential Dom/me for references...they give you the email contact info for these "submissives". Then, pretending to be their own former submissive, they respond to you themselves, assuring you that "master so-and-so was the best master I ever had, and I'd still be with him, if I hadn't had to move to bumfuck egypt".

Typically, their former "sub" has supposedly relocated far away...so a meeting with this fictional sub is of course, out of the question. To make the fraud complete, they claim that the former “sub” has to be discreet, so you can't even call them on the phone...so, the only confirmation you can recieve is with an email from an anonymous person, a person that doesnt' even exist...So...don't put too much faith in any references you are given...they are too easy to fake...
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Lifestyle References are a thing of the Past - 7/31/2005 12:25:15 AM   
DublinSwitch


Posts: 59
Joined: 1/28/2005
Status: offline 		Goddam sneaky trolls!!! I am going to demand an employers reference from here on in before even mailing anyone! Imagine anyone not being completely 100% honest online! I don't know what the world is coming to...

And worse! people setting up fake profiles here! I vote we lynch the buggers! Nothing like a good lynchin' I say.

DS


(in reply to LordTemporal)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Lifestyle References are a thing of the Past - 7/31/2005 3:57:15 AM   
lovingmaster45


Posts: 261
Joined: 9/16/2004
Status: offline 		To me a lifestyle reference is a reference coming from someone who is IN the lifestyle. What you described does NOT meet that criteria.

For example, if I received a reference from Frazier, Lord Cuff, Taggard, Dani, or EmeraldSlave, I would KNOW that they understood what the meaning of a reference was; because they are IN the lifestyle.

All of them are known by huge numbers of people; they all have been ACTIVE in the lifestyle.

An anonymous sub with only an email address is no reference and anyone who falls into that trap pretty much deserves what they get.

_____________________________

Master Jerry


(in reply to DublinSwitch)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Lifestyle References are a thing of the Past - 7/31/2005 4:38:37 AM   
MsSonnetMarwood


Posts: 1898
Joined: 2/10/2005
From: Eastern Shore, Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

Typically, their former "sub" has supposedly relocated far away...so a meeting with this fictional sub is of course, out of the question. To make the fraud complete, they claim that the former “sub” has to be discreet, so you can't even call them on the phone...so, the only confirmation you can recieve is with an email from an anonymous person, a person that doesnt' even exist...So...don't put too much faith in any references you are given...they are too easy to fake...


Ahhh, perhaps it's catching up with the "other side".

For years, Dommes have been hearing (primarily from subs that contact us online) that the reason that sub in question was without a dominant was that after x amount of time of devoted service, said Domme up and moved cross country/out of the country, never to be heard from again, with no contact information. Honestly, it's a joke it's so cliche anymore - I wonder if there's a wannabe guide out there that lists that as a tactic to use.

In one particularly amusing case, I was told that not once, not twice, but three times his ex-Dommes moved cross country, and wouldn't you know, he did not have any contact information for any of them.

I can only fathom of two reasons why this lie is so popular - one, that the person is a novice and has been turned down because of it so he invents this absent ex Domme; and two, not a novice but the past relationship ended poorly so it was easier to tell people "she moved" than deal with examing WHY it didn't work.

Either way, it's actually a good filtering device. If I ask if someone has served before and I hear this little oft-repeated gem, I know I can write that person off because for whatever reason, they decided to lie to me up front.

< Message edited by MsSonnetMarwood -- 7/31/2005 4:40:12 AM >

_____________________________

~Ms. Sonnet Marwood~

Deja Moo: The feeling you've heard this bull somewhere before.

(in reply to LordTemporal)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Lifestyle References are a thing of the Past - 7/31/2005 6:21:13 AM   
MsIncognito


Posts: 742
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline 		Surely this isn't news, is it? I've never thought references were of much value. Even if we assume that someone gives you legitimate references what are the chances they're going to give you the name/contact info of someone who thinks they're a big jerk? Umm...slim and none? Add to that the fact that it's far too easy to fake references, as you've noted, and it would seem to me that the only viable solution is to get out there and meet people in real time. By being part of the flesh and blood community you can get to know people, see how they play and even get to know an ex or two. You can get a general feel for what their reputation in the community is like and then make a decision based on what you've seen with your own two eyes. Of course, nothing is fool proof since even in the community you get those people who's goal is to ruin someone's reputation for their own petty reasons but I do think your chances of meeting some fake are much lower. BTW, this goes for both Tops and bottoms. I've met some pretty scary bottoms that if I were a Top I wouldn't go near with a ten foot pole.

(in reply to LordTemporal)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Lifestyle References are a thing of the Past - 7/31/2005 6:22:55 AM   
MstrssPassion


Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline 		This can easily be resolved.

Keep it REAL!

Get off the darn computer & talk to people real-time. Get involved with the local community. I know most of the munches are filled with people you don't want to date or play with, but this isn't about playing, it is about socializing & building friendships with like-minded folk.

If someone offers you a reference, get a phone number instead of a screen name if this person is not local. I understand & have experienced meeting others from great distances. The internet has made the dating game an international event. We do not meet doing laundry or at the grocery store or at the local bar anymore. Again, being involved with a local munch or events gives a person the ability to contact that host/hostess in order to get a reference.

References work, but a reference is as only good as the crowd they travel with. Best reference to follow is your gut feeling. Take time when talking to new people. Don't rush!! If someone is genuinely interested in meeting you they will be patient.

MstrssPassion

(in reply to MsSonnetMarwood)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Lifestyle References are a thing of the Past - 7/31/2005 6:36:34 AM   
LadyJulieAnn


Posts: 979
Joined: 6/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

This can easily be resolved.

Keep it REAL!

Get off the darn computer & talk to people real-time. Get involved with the local community. I know most of the munches are filled with people you don't want to date or play with, but this isn't about playing, it is about socializing & building friendships with like-minded folk.

MstrssPassion


I agree. Getting involved with your local BDSM community is most likely the best way to make sure you really get to know those people active in the lifestyle. However, I used to participate in a few D/s MSN chatrooms back when they were free, and most of the rooms I went to had numerous regulars who actively lived the lifestyle offline. I felt the information gained in those cases was reliable, at least in my expereince.

Be well,
Julie


< Message edited by LadyJulieAnn -- 7/31/2005 6:37:57 AM >

(in reply to MstrssPassion)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Lifestyle References are a thing of the Past - 7/31/2005 7:40:19 AM   
sudja


Posts: 155
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LordTemporal

I used to suggest that subs check the references of a potential Master or Mistress before meeting for the first time. This used to be a great idea because if they had confirmation from another lifestyler that the person was safe, that would hopefully mean the potential Dom/me was at least real. Nowadays it's meaningless. I say this because of something I am seeing more and more often.



Why wouldn't you be making the same suggestion to Dom/mes?

As I noted to a less than astute self-proclaimed Domme once who said, "Well, I'm not the one who is going to be tied up," ---- "You aren't going to be tying them up in the parking lot where you're meeting, and your being a Domme isn't going to do protect you against their gun or knife.

sudja

(in reply to LordTemporal)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Lifestyle References are a thing of the Past - 7/31/2005 7:48:43 AM   
sudja


Posts: 155
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsSonnetMarwood

For years, Dommes have been hearing (primarily from subs that contact us online) that the reason that sub in question was without a dominant was that after x amount of time of devoted service, said Domme up and moved cross country/out of the country, never to be heard from again, with no contact information.


Sadly, that happens a lot. In both directions. To rule somebody out because that happened to them is shortsighted, at best.

I'm going to go against "conventional" wisdom and suggest that "references" aren't all that important so long as appropriate safety measures are taken.

Who cares what somebody else thinks of another? If you don't know whether a person is actually who they say they are by the time you're planning on meeting them, you shouldn't be planning on meeting them.

It's about relationships.

It's about getting to know somebody.

It's about seeing whether you mesh.

It's about you deciding whether they are the right kind of real for you - for each and every person *is* real.

sudja

(in reply to MsSonnetMarwood)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Lifestyle References are a thing of the Past - 7/31/2005 8:20:44 AM   
LadySonelle


Posts: 280
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: Santa Fe NM
Status: offline 		Well, I have never been asked for references but I would gladly supply them.

I would give the person the name I used before I switched to Lady Sonelle, and a copy of My state ID to prove I am who My former name indicates... And then I would refer them to Jay Wiseman, Pat Califia, Fakir Musafar, Sheree Rose and Nancy Ava Miller, all of whom I have known and either played with or done training or workshops under.

While it will have been a very long time since I have talked with and seen these people, they will very likely remember Me and My submissive and confirm that I am who I say I am, a lifestyle Dominatrix and practitioner of BDSM.

I got to know these wonderful people, along with Fledermaus, Lady Cassandra, Bob Flanagan, Larry Townsend, Bud Russell, Suzy Bright and others because I lived in Los Angeles during the Renaissance of BDSM in 1983 - 1986 and in San Francisco between 1988 and 1995.

As for the name change, it was because of a stalker who was (and is still) very Internet savvy and has a deep abiding grudge against Myself and My Collared slave. Since I did scenes and trained under My actual, legal name, it became dangerous to use it online.

At any rate, for Me, references are no problem, but as I mentioned, nobody has ever asked... and that's a bit disturbing. We need to be a tad safer out there!

Lady Sonelle

_____________________________

Come to My domain and read My Lessons online! http://www.LadySonelle.com then place yourself beneath My loving Hand!

(in reply to LordTemporal)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Lifestyle References are a thing of the Past - 7/31/2005 8:22:38 AM   
Faramir


Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline 		One thing about "lifestyle references": a lot of us (maybe the majority?) aren't in the lifestyle.

I'm just the super-dee-duperest Master ever (to my little girl at least) and I am not in the lifestyle. When we met online, we had to trust our instincts. What I wrote in my profile at b.com moved her. What she said in her email to me intruiged me. Our conversation on the phone over a few days convinced us both to meet...and so on.

I have a bunch of buddies over in SF who are part of the scene - real lifestylers, and that's great for them They are part of a BDSM community, and references
"in the scene" would have some meaning for them. I belive the vast majority of us aren't lifestylers, but we are still Masters and slaves, Doms and subs, Mistresses and boys, etc. Somthing people who are "in the lifestyle" may not realize is that for the broader BDSM world, you are a minority.

(in reply to sudja)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Lifestyle References are a thing of the Past - 7/31/2005 8:45:38 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		References are useless unless you can judge the references themselves.

(in reply to LordTemporal)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Lifestyle References are a thing of the Past - 7/31/2005 10:07:30 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah, surprise surprise, I agree with Faramir. Being genuine doesn't mean being "in the lifestyle."

(in reply to Faramir)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Lifestyle References are a thing of the Past - 7/31/2005 12:27:27 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sudja


I'm going to go against "conventional" wisdom and suggest that "references" aren't all that important so long as appropriate safety measures are taken.

Who cares what somebody else thinks of another? If you don't know whether a person is actually who they say they are by the time you're planning on meeting them, you shouldn't be planning on meeting them.


quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

References are useless unless you can judge the references themselves.

Two of the most salient points in the entire thread IMHO.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to sudja)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Lifestyle References are a thing of the Past - 7/31/2005 2:19:25 PM   
imtempting


Posts: 1280
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		I think referances are a load of rubbish. Its not a job interview. You dont normally leave a relationship unless something is wrong and how many people keep in contacts with ex's?Like people have said its so easy to have people give fake referances.

(in reply to LordTemporal)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Lifestyle References are a thing of the Past - 7/31/2005 11:52:32 PM   
SteelBondager


Posts: 86
Joined: 5/29/2005
Status: offline 		I do treat it like a job interview, but I'm not worried about references. I don't have the right to expect that ex-whatevers would have good things to say about a relationship that didn't work out.

On the other hand, if someone comes to visit me, she'll get to meet some of my kinky friends who will all do their best to tell her why she should be their slave instead of mine. (Maybe that's not the best idea after all.)

_____________________________

http://steelbondager.blogsome.com/ - Thoughts of a Modern Bondager

(in reply to imtempting)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Lifestyle References are a thing of the Past - 8/1/2005 12:14:30 AM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DublinSwitch
Goddam sneaky trolls!!! I am going to demand an employers reference from here on in before even mailing anyone! Imagine anyone not being completely 100% honest online! I don't know what the world is coming to...
And worse! people setting up fake profiles here! I vote we lynch the buggers! Nothing like a good lynchin' I say.
DS

ROTFLMAO
No Lynching though! A good whipping maybe? Violent butt phu*****? M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to DublinSwitch)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Lifestyle References are a thing of the Past - 8/1/2005 3:57:12 AM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

used to suggest that subs check the references of a potential Master or Mistress before meeting for the first time. This used to be a great idea because if they had confirmation from another lifestyler that the person was safe, that would hopefully mean the potential Dom/me was at least real. Nowadays it's meaningless. I say this because of something I am seeing more and more often.

The trolls are doing something to give themselves sterling references by creating several online profiles...FEMALE profiles...and then they claim to have owned the "subs" the profiles represent...so, when you ask a potential Dom/me for references...they give you the email contact info for these "submissives". Then, pretending to be their own former submissive, they respond to you themselves, assuring you that "master so-and-so was the best master I ever had, and I'd still be with him, if I hadn't had to move to bumfuck egypt".

Typically, their former "sub" has supposedly relocated far away...so a meeting with this fictional sub is of course, out of the question. To make the fraud complete, they claim that the former “sub” has to be discreet, so you can't even call them on the phone...so, the only confirmation you can recieve is with an email from an anonymous person, a person that doesnt' even exist...So...don't put too much faith in any references you are given...they are too easy to fake...


What are you smoking? Perhaps the problem is that you've narrowed your world so much (i.e. operating solely from the internet) that you are the problem. And perhaps you don't really understand the reason and philosophy behind references.

In the world of kink I live in, I can reference just about anyone, coast to coast. If I don't know someone who lives in a certain area, you can bet I know someone who does. Am I some sub with Super Powers? Hell no. I just get out of the house and I participate in the larger community through a variety of 'cons' and leather events. I've had friends move from this area and ground themselves elsewhere. I've travelled and met people who know other people.

It galls me to no end to listen to "Doms" here bitch and whine and complain that all the subs are 'fakes' because they can't track their references.

Perhaps if these "Doms" got out more and actually participated in their local or regional scene, the legitimacy of references might get more....legitimate.

Lily

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to LordTemporal)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Lifestyle References are a thing of the Past - 8/1/2005 4:43:15 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Yeah, surprise surprise, I agree with Faramir. Being genuine doesn't mean being "in the lifestyle."

I second this. And I have never, ever asked for a reference to date someone. I'll just take my time to get to know them and trust my instincts.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Lifestyle References are a thing of the Past - 8/1/2005 5:40:51 AM   
happypervert


Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline 		I think it is really funny to see a post lamenting the lack of references right after having this thread on People forced out of the public scene by references with bad agendas.

_____________________________

"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live." . . . Mark Twain

(in reply to LordTemporal)
Profile   Post #: 20
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