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Traditional roles of Men and Women - 10/20/2007 11:59:27 AM

Termyn8or

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At first I thought this not the best place for this, but on second thought, well, we'll see.

At a website where some very untraditional practices are practiced by the members on the surface seems like a bad place to put something like this. But people here seem to have very open minds, and maybe those minds open both ways.

I also submit that nature changes as well, and our kinks might be a reflection of that. But if we got back to basics, to the core of what we are, we could learn a thing or two, just maybe.

The concepts I am about to express encompass the whole of human evolution, Darwinism and a few other precepts. I make no claim except that at this time in history, I think what I say is true. These are conclusions. Some fact might be mixed in, but I'll send you a grain of salt if you need it. (hey dude, how many grams is a grain ?)

We live in a society where Men are constantly emasculated, and that doesn't mean sex or kink. I know a Man who is under indictment for assault. What he did was he protected his Wife from someone who was grabbing her purse. The problem stems from the fact that he was undercover security for the store, but my buddy did not know that. No uniform, no badge of any kind, regular street clothes. To him it appeared like a simple purse snatching attempt. When he got ahold of his lawyer, who used to be my lawyer (I need much better ones later, but this guy is good), he said $200 and this should be gone. Now get this straight, thius guy is about $900 for a simple DUI, and you are most likely to have to take it, he just gets the fines and time down. For a guy like this to say $200 is like a real fluke.

He really does love her and if he sees you looking at her for too long he will be looking at you. Got a jealous streak, and that is another aspect of this. I am going back to our basic instincts and how they were formed. Whoever decides to participate in this discussion, fine, some find it irrelevant, but I don't. It has to do with everything IMO, and should not be dismissed.

So, analysing everything, there are certain truths. One is that Men tend to be bigger and stronger than Women. I said tend to be, that means, like on average. I know there are Women out there who could kick my ass, but they are the exception. Just like with racism, assigning traits due to other traits just does not work. However the trait is there, that Men tend to be larger and stronger physically than Women. In general, on average, get it ?

So how did this come about ? Many theorie have been put forth, but here is mine.

At some point in history, there was a time when mankind was nomadic. Males and females had to get together somehow or there would be no people today. In some species, the female takes care of the young, and it is not so much an issue. But species' that colonize seem to have a much greater discrepancy in the roles of female and male. Take bees for instance.

Back in the wilderness days of human evolution, both sexes had to be straong. They may have found caves, who knows. Imagine living in a time like that and figure it out. Later, mankind colonized, and I am using the term in a broad sense. This could mean staking a claim and starting a farm, but if a Man did that, he would need a Woman.

Time came when people lived in houses and grew crops. Everybody wants to have kids at some point in their life, and a few extra hands might come in handy. So if you have a Woman and a farm, you are most likely to have kids.

Now back then there was no Enfamil or any other baby formula, breast milk or the kid dies. The breasts are on the Mother, the Woman. It would not be practical for the Woman to go plow the fields and have the Father bring the babies to her for periodic breastfeeding, sp the Man went out and did that. This was more physical work and they became acclimated to greater physical requirements (got stronger). The male children were also introduced to this.

Meantime the Woman had at least the female children, and they were in a world of cooking and cleaning and whatever. Of course there were other things, but the roles were different. Somehow they survived together.

Outside of the kink community, there are plenty of dominant males. Some females just melt when they meet them. This is an animal instinct. Not all animals, but the kind of animals we are. If the reason is indeed our history, how is it that so many peop want to go against it ?

I am not saying that's bad, I'm saying that this is how I think the human race developed. If that is so, for me to bottom, for all the guys on IRC to sub, it is a monumental breach of what could be called numan nature. If this is so, that means the mind really is in control, and that is encouraging.

Of course some of us could be so damn stupid that we even forgot our instincts. I don't want to explore that right now. This is not meant as a bitch or a rant thread. I don't want to hash out how society has changed, we know it has, and we know it will. But the reasons why.

How did we get there, and then how did we get from there to here ?

T

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RE: Traditional roles of Men and Women - 10/20/2007 12:22:33 PM

pahunkboy

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As noteworthy as this is- in a way it is -well- I am disconnected from it. While the nuclear family served me, the purpose well- I lately conclude- that I am me- best off with me- and the greatest thing since sliced bread is me. If I want something done- do it myself. A male can lax around the house. I dont worry too much if someone sees me - say with a rip in my clothes. Many females- are guarded- even in the home.

The home I grew up in- rotate all 6 people. Subtract for the 2 that married, etc. How much square footage do we take? 6 people went from sharing 1500 sq ft- to each one using about 1500 square feet EACH.

It floors me - the ordeal that heterosexual folks go thru - in dating and breaking up. Everyone is so messed up. We probaly deserve what we get. [I too am messed up]

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RE: Traditional roles of Men and Women - 10/20/2007 1:27:42 PM

Shawn1066

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There is a difference between sex and gender, in my opinion. Sex is natural, being male and female. Gender, in my opinion, is something that's greatly influenced by society. After all, it is society that teaches us what is it to be a man...what is is to be a woman... That's how we learn.

While some of it is indeed biological, a lot of it has to do with society. It's a mixture of both, really.

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RE: Traditional roles of Men and Women - 10/21/2007 1:12:05 AM

Termyn8or

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Shawn, you make a good point.

Let me try to tell it a different way. There is a difference in what the body is and what the mind is. This explains transexuals and a few other things.

And I agree that we learn by example. Thing is, what is that example ? You are twenty-seven years my junior. I mention that because of the importance of a different environment. I do not discount your opinions or intelligence because of your youth. I was a smart MF when I was twenty. I bought my way out iof high school. That's right, I am a "dropout". Funny how I seem to be able to communicate and such eh ?

A Mother becomes a teacher much of the time. I saw this. A Father shows some ass. Mine went to work for a week with a sliver of steel in his eye, embedded in the cornea. The eye doctor asked him if he was superman. Imagine the irritation. And driving.

Imperfections existed in my childhood, but between then and later, I see the examples were not all that bad. The work ethic and hunger for knowledge is what, I believe, makes me successful. I ask you, what else might it be ?

Traditional values are being changed. We have Women stronger than Men, and we have much innovation. When the Man had to go out and get the food by hunting, fishing or gathering, the Woman's job was to cook it, feed the kids. That grew out of a basic biological fact, that the teats are on the female of the species.

I have not been able to put this into words before, but now I think I can do it.

Equality does not and never will exist, but equity can.

Being here on a kink site, of course people's lifestyles might not be normal. You might think from the OP that I advocate adherence to the old way, a lifestyle we do not want. Nothing could be farther from the truth. While it might have been a good way to live a while back, it just doesn't work anymore. That's a shame, but this cloud has a silver lining.

Kink, homosexuality, anything other than copulation for reproduction is called wrong by religion. Fuck religion. Kinksters and homosexuals I think would have less kids than those who did things "by the book". In that way we are not contributing to the biomass, nor our abilities to raise a kid.

So, in a way religion is right, or there might be no people. Believe me I am not religious but I do recognize things. But the thing is, look at the world. One of the biggest problems is overpopulation, anyplace that's any good has too many people. Look around, it is obvious. There are simply too many people.

So it could be said that homosexuals and kinksters are a normal development for the human race. We are overpopulated, these activities generally slow the process of procreation, so this might just be a natural thing. That means we are leaders in a way I think.

In fact one could say that everything is natural. It is for us to determine what is desirable.

Be well.

T

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RE: Traditional roles of Men and Women - 10/21/2007 1:53:56 AM

Zensee

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There's an argument that says homosexuality is adaptive for humans. Since it takes more than one or two parents to raise a child it is economically stressful for a all members of a troop to have offspring, having a consistent proportion of the population dedicated to NOT breeding means better quality child care. Elders (especially menopausal females) bachelor uncles and maiden aunts are important social adjuncts the the bread winners and wet nurses.

But the social agreements that got us here are not necessarily the ones we need now nor the ones that will take us into the future. Even if things go to total global shit, humans will still thrive and likely reach a similar tipping point in the distant future. If we can find and maintain the population levels and lifestyles that the earth can sustain, we might be able to continue evolving our knowledge and capabilities. If not we will lose most everything to the chaos that often descends where we gather.

Z.

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RE: Traditional roles of Men and Women - 10/21/2007 2:14:50 AM

MissMagnolia

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The trouble with tradition is that it only encompasses what has been traditional within a short amount of time, on the grand scale.

To this age, traditionally, females are the caregivers, the nurturers, the gatherers. Men traditionally are the leaders, the hunters, the defenders and the aggressors when claiming more territory.

In some cultures, especially back in the day, women also hunted and fought. Women were revered as the life givers, the shamans and as leaders. Men has a lesser role, as seen in those societies.

I don't believe than men are constantly emasculated, though I do believe that many are unsure of their place in society. At the risk of setting off all the feminists (of which I am one), the womens lib movement, while bringing mostly positive change for all women, has shifted the balance of power somewhat. For example, if a woman goes for a job, and doesn't get it because it was given to a man, there are those who will scream discrimination to the heavens.

Simplistically, I truly do believe that men and women are very different in more ways than physical, but that it is a good thing. We each give a viewpoint that the other may not have even though of, a way of dealing with a problem, etc. It's like a DNA double helix, ya can't have one without the other and they work beautifully well together.

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RE: Traditional roles of Men and Women - 10/21/2007 2:44:47 AM

meatcleaver

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general point.

Western society has been neutering the traditional role of males mainly through the economy. I'm not saying this is a good thing or a bad thing but it is a change that has consequences. Traditional blue colour jobs have gone or have been drastically reduced, professional jobs for males are being reduced in the face of competition of females so there is a surplus of male labour, young men without a role in life, without the discipline works gives and with no responsibility to anyone but themselves. That might be a good thing, it might be a bad thing but it does mean there will be more and more single mothers. A mother can't afford to have an idle male around and a male that doesn't live with his offspring tends to abandon them over time if not immediately, this has social consequences particularly in the ghettoes but also in the middleclasses. Research has shown consistantly that children from two parent familes out perform children form single parent families and are less likely to have trouble with the law. It is an ongoing social problem that is consistantly ignored because people automatically assume that the solution is to put women back in the kitchen. That doesn't have to be the solution but a positive role needs to be found for an army of young men that don't have any responsibility to anyone but themselves ( a scenario which ususally means bad news for society as a whole.)

Hmm Actually as an older single man I wouldn't have it any other way, let women bring up the children if that is what they insist on doing while holding down a job. I'm happy not having any responsibilites for anyone but myself.

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