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RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 7:51:24 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Fr

Yes, it really is that rare. Punishment dynamics are like candy for kinky people- it's easy, sweet, readily available.

It also tends to rot things over the long term rather than really making them better. Eventually they figure it out or they keep playing out their dramas. It saddens me that so many just accept "punishment" without understanding a single thing about actual human relationships or behavior training.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 21

RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 8:04:36 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
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Happy functioning relationships where the partners live together are rare. I define that as a couple who have lived together for over two or three years which isn't even really that high a bench mark. I use the "live together" standard because that is what I seek for myself.

Punishment is a game for many but as LA said, I think it is too often done in a way that doesn't create a closer relationship and doesn't result in better behavior.

I can't stand punishment, I hate being put in a position where I must do it and I hate administering it. I do love torturing her and hurting her but that is completely different.

We talk of punishment often because who needs to ask about "things are perfect, don't need any advice". People ask for advice when things are going wrong, not when they are going right.

That said, people make mistakes, my lady makes them on occasion. I prefer to remind her to do better for me and or express disappointment or explain how her actions showed a carelessness with my heart.

What I find odd are those who have all these major punishments for major crimes. If someone is cheating on me or lying or something along those lines, it isn't punishment that is called for but goodbyes.

So to close a long rambling post, I rarely have to punish because I know she is trying her best and those few times she slips, a guiding hand is better than a punative one.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 22

RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 8:05:35 PM

LadyHibiscus

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline

I utterly agree that there is endless male yapping about the joys of punishment. These are the same males who talk about training their subs do do whatever. Talk with some of them in depth, and you come to realize that they would be better off with a nice golden retriever than a human being. <shrug> I leave them to it. (and yes, there are women who talk about punishement too, but not nearly as many.)

I am a very well adjusted sadist, with no need to use any excuses. Punishment role play? Big fun. Having to set a bunch of rules and enforce them with various punishments? Not fun. I am an adult and I work/play with other adults who please me or not. If they do not, we straighten it out fast. If I do not please the person I am working with, we straighten that out, as well. This also sidesteps the sammy who seeks out punishiments for the sake of them. My masochists shouldn't need excuses, either.

I dislike the punishment dynamic for myself because it sets me on a pedestal of having to be endlessly vigilant, and also the perfect role model. Who monitors the dominant's behavior? Do I lose a privilege if I am late getting home from work? Or am I simply immune because of my role? Again, No Fun.

Overall, I have met very few couples that last who use this kind of dynamic, but that is my own experience. I am with Lucky Albatross here, I think that the dynamic isn't the most effective for behavior management or long term growth. YMMV.

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 23

RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 8:23:07 PM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

Sorry Noah but I stand by my viewpoint. If all a dominant does is belittle a sub, constantly telling her/him what a failure the sub is, that is unhealthy.

Care of the property is another thing we like to bandy about here. But a dominant who makes the sub less competent, less healthy mentally and emotionally, who needs her to be weak in order to feel strong is not someone I would recommend anyone connect with. Such a dominant seeks to destroy the property, not take care of it.

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 24

RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 8:25:38 PM

iammachine

Posts: 1549
Joined: 1/25/2006
Status: offline

quote:

well oiled machine....

Say what now?

To the OP:

For my purposes, I will develop some vocabulary, while simultaneously playing the devil's advocate and trying not to get spicy sauce on my keyboard (mmm, dinner! chicken wings good!).

Hows that for a well oiled machine? Or maybe just oily...

In any case! Let's think about the acronym BDSM for a moment, shall we? Bondage, Discipline, Sadism, Masochism, Domination, Submission, Master/Mistress, Slave; did I miss any? Now that we have the premise out of the way, let's focus on Discipline, Sadism and Masochism, they're a part of how we play. You may not play that way, but some people involved in BDSM do, therefore it's perfectly valid and relevant to our kinky little (sub)culture.

In addition to breaking down acronyms.... about that language I was talking about. For my purposes, I am going to differentiate between "punishment" and "correction". As an aside, I tend to not think in terms of punishment, but I need words for clarity here, so I'ma go down that road right now, oh yes I am! So to reel in my train of thought back from it's derailing, I will temporarily define punishment strictly as an S&M play exchange which may or may not have a basis in "cause and effect". I will also define correction as, well, strictly a cause and effect disciplinary action.

Some people like to give and/or receive punishment, they may or may not need a reason for it, they just dig it. Punishment for the sake of punishment, whether it be tangible or a little more heady and incorporeal. Some people (like SAMs) like to inspire a punishment, and some people need a "reason" to give it, even if that reason might be staged. As long as all of the involved parties are adults playing RACK, and no one is suffering long lasting (potentially permanent) ill effects from an exchange, I say go for it. If it's pleasureable, especially for all involved, it can't be that bad.

In terms of a power exchange type relationship, the need for correction is probably rather inevitable as no one is perfect. The form that correction may take is variable, it might be a discussion, it might be corporal, it might be having to write and essay, it might be time sitting in a corner. The methods are as variable as the people and again, if all parties involved are adults playing RACK, and no one is suffering long lasting (potentially permanent) ill effects from an exchange, I say go for it. If it inspires growth, all the better! As exemplified by the term "growing pains," sometimes growth hurts a little. :)

There's my .02, as always, IMO, YMMV, and all that goodness.

_____________________________

I still hear you scream... in every breath, every single motion

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 25

RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 8:37:44 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

Sorry Noah but I stand by my viewpoint. If all a dominant does is belittle a sub, constantly telling her/him what a failure the sub is, that is unhealthy.

Care of the property is another thing we like to bandy about here. But a dominant who makes the sub less competent, less healthy mentally and emotionally, who needs her to be weak in order to feel strong is not someone I would recommend anyone connect with. Such a dominant seeks to destroy the property, not take care of it.

While I would agree with your sentiments here, I do not equate healthy and effective punishment with such a stretch. I have had punishment in my dynamic and it has never made me weak or emotionally unhealthy, nor have I constantly been told what a failure I am (oddly enough, however, that's precisely what happened in my non D/s marriage).

And I've been thriving with him for about 3 1/2 years now.

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 26

RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 8:40:59 PM

iammachine

Posts: 1549
Joined: 1/25/2006
Status: offline

quote:

I stand by my viewpoint. If all a dominant does is belittle a sub, constantly telling her/him what a failure the sub is, that is unhealthy.

For the record, I can't say that I disagree with you for the most part, but this statement did make me think...

What about the subs that really like verbal humiliation? Granted, there are some whom I do question their mental stability and self esteem, yet there are also those that seem to be perfectly well adjusted, and their esteem doesn't seem to suffer over the long run.

So yeah, what about them? Food for thought, in any case.

iammachine
putting away the devil's oh-so-shiny pom poms

_____________________________

I still hear you scream... in every breath, every single motion

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 27

RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 8:41:26 PM

RRafe

Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline

I really really don't like to have to be in a relationship with an oversized child. When I first began-I tried bottoming to a BBW Domme who I think was a man hater. used any old excuse to take that spoon out and whack me with it. Even for small mistakes that I corrected immediately. made me lose imeasureable amunts of respect for her-till I pulled the plug. Then she tried to play mind games with me-and I ceased all contact. I never looked back to subbing, and fat chicks make me shuddder-literally.

Left me with a bitter taste in my mouth-that has lasted to this very day. Because I think I can choose better-and be better than that..

If one cannot realize that they are hurting my feelings for them-and find it important NOT to do that-because they care about me......and they want that RETURNED.

We had damned well make our OWN corrections.

And not cop out on the other party to do it FOR us.

Because that is what mature people DO.

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I seem to be some wierd combination of Ren and Stimpy

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 28

RE: Square table - 10/22/2007 8:49:55 PM

petdave

Posts: 2479
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
It’s a game, the OP says. It will be fun, he says.. Play along, he says. He will pick a submissive crime and invites responses for “serious as well as funny” ideas on punishment. It makes me sad, as well as a little angry because it comes across as so much anticipatory……glee.

i thought it was fun, particularly the answers from Tacs and Jasmyn... LOTTA buzz-killing, though.

i'm a "good sub". Really. But there's something about sadistic glee that i just love, and if that comes from a fabricated "crime", then that's okay.

But maybe that's just how we roll down here in Dysfunction Junction.

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 29

RE: Square table - 10/23/2007 7:05:34 AM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Fr

Yes, it really is that rare. Punishment dynamics are like candy for kinky people- it's easy, sweet, readily available.

It also tends to rot things over the long term rather than really making them better. Eventually they figure it out or they keep playing out their dramas. It saddens me that so many just accept "punishment" without understanding a single thing about actual human relationships or behavior training.

I love the candy analogy because I often feel the need to brush my teeth and use mouthwash after reading most of the punishment posts.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 30

RE: Square table - 10/23/2007 7:16:38 AM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

What I find odd are those who have all these major punishments for major crimes. If someone is cheating on me or lying or something along those lines, it isn't punishment that is called for but goodbyes.

That puzzles me too---if the authority has been disrupted to that extent, the D/s dynamic is not going to be re-established with mere punishment.

quote:

I rarely have to punish because I know she is trying her best and those few times she slips, a guiding hand is better than a punative one.

(emphasis mine) Nicely worded! Thanks, SimplyMichael.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 31

RE: Square table - 10/23/2007 7:21:08 AM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

I firmly differentiate between pain play and negative consequences (punishment or correction.) SAMmy-ness also is in my opinion an entirely different dynamic than D/s.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to iammachine)

Post #: 32

RE: Square table - 10/23/2007 8:45:36 AM

toservez

Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
Is it really that uncommon for a dominant to clearly state the rules and expectations, the submissive to agree, and both of them abide by their obligations within the relationship?

Personally one of the weakness of a message board is often threads posted are treated with out context and within a vacuum. Throw into the mix that both roles and genders makes mistakes add a dash of people come on here to project a higher level of perfection then in reality. I think that when threads of I screwed up or punishments get started it is often too easy to assume the person starting the thread somehow does this on a daily basis with many things when that is not the case.

I think most of us in the life do this pretty well but I seriously doubt if any of us are perfect. For me that is just too high of a standard to expect from either role. I also think for many who do have problem in this area though is because expectations, commitment and agreeing to a way to live have just in fact not been communicated or have not been taken seriously by one or both. I just do not believe this to be a majority of people who have long term power exchange relationships but in fact are the one’s in the minority. I also think many people like to feel special and seeing others struggle gives them some cyber pat on the back.

In terms of dominants and reason to punish I agree with what many have written. I clearly wanted to avoid the sadist but will only hurt me if I screw up types when I was writing my profile. I still got a ton of them writing me telling me I was asking to be abused. I think as others have written some who have not come to terms with themselves and the differences in society have taught them will twist things to get what they want to do in their mind to a more moral (right) situation. This then becomes more about them trying to find something to indulge their need instead of just indulging in it and hurts the relationship in many ways.

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 33

RE: Square table - 10/23/2007 8:51:19 AM

RRafe

Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline

Right, if you need to find a moral justification to "play".

You are already FUBAR.

Fucked-up-Beyond-all-Reason.

Don't excuse it-just freakin do it.

_____________________________

I seem to be some wierd combination of Ren and Stimpy

(in reply to toservez)

Post #: 34

RE: Square table - 10/23/2007 8:53:57 AM

slaveluci

Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
Is it really that uncommon for a dominant to clearly state the rules and expectations, the submissive to agree, and both of them abide by their obligations within the relationship?

No, it isn't. Those of us in those types of relationships just don't tend to get on here and go into all the gory details as much. Where's the fun in that? Talking about two mature adults understanding the expectations and happily living by them? What a bore

. I know that's how my relationship is. I think of others here who talk of the same thing (Knight and his girls, ownedgirlie, and many more). You don't hear them (or me) going on about "punishment" all the time because the slaves/subs in these relationships want to obey and so we do. Nothing dramatic to see here

................luci

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(in reply to catize)

Post #: 35

RE: Square table - 10/23/2007 9:01:00 AM

Dnomyar

Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline

This thread is a good example of different strokes for different folks. People should accept someones point of view and not try to get the last word in. Im of the opinion that this lifestyle requires an open mind. I can see that some dont share that point of view.

(in reply to RRafe)

Post #: 36

RE: Square table - 10/23/2007 3:38:58 PM

slavegirljoy

Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
Is it really that uncommon for a dominant to clearly state the rules and expectations, the submissive to agree, and both of them abide by their obligations within the relationship?

i don't know how common or uncommon it is but, my Master made it very clear to me what His rules and requirements would be, if i were to become His property and, made sure that i understood His rules and requirements and accepted them as something i could live by, before He offered His collar to me. There has only been a few times that i have actually disobeyed Him and He did punish me for those infractions. But, because i am a masochist and He is a sadist, He doesn't use pain to punish me. He punishes me with corner time, which i hate and, one time He didn't allow me to serve Him for 3 days. That was the hardest for me and it gave me a lot of incentive to keep my mind right and to obey Him at all times. For me, it hasn't been so much about punishment as it has been about corrective training and behavior modification, which i have needed, in order to go from having been a free woman for all of my adult life and making most of my decisions myself, even when i was a sub to a Dom, to becoming a fully-owned slave to a Master who makes all of the decisions for me. For me, Master David's corrective training is less about punishing me for refusing to obey Him and more about breaking my old habits. Sometimes, i have just done something stupid, that i should have known better than to do. And, i needed to suffer the consequences. Other times, i have simply fallen back into my old ways of thinking that i knew what was best for me and that i could decide for myself what i should do. Master David needed to remind me that He is now in charge of decisions for me. Being a slave has required me to change my old way of thinking, which is what i wanted but, some habits are hard to break. Also, sometimes stress can cause me to get flustered and to act up a bit. Master David's corrective training helps to bring me back to a more positive and secure footing in my walk as His slave. It's not something i view as a negative, because i do feel like a stronger and more confident slave, after. Even though i don't really like the corrective training/punishment that is imposed on me, i do like the effect that it has on me and i like knowing that my Master is in charge of me. slave joyOwned property of Master David

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 37

RE: Square table - 10/23/2007 6:15:20 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

Is it really that uncommon for a dominant to clearly state the rules and expectations, the submissive to agree, and both of them abide by their obligations within the relationship?

yeah... It would seem to be rather rare actually...... otherwise I suspect you wouldn't see the relationship failures that you see. Interestingly enough... it's been my experience that you see the same people failing over and over again... so they infact increase the total relationship failures that occur.

mmmmmmmmmmm amazingly punishment doesn't seem to be keeping relationships together! Kinda like the married couple that has a little one to bond the relationship closer together.. .when in most cases it just increases the problems. When the relationship is working... punishment can add to the relationship dynamic for those that have punishment as part of their dynamic. Not unlike a happy married "vanilla" couple that has a littleone.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 38

RE: Square table - 10/23/2007 6:25:04 PM

RRafe

Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

Is it really that uncommon for a dominant to clearly state the rules and expectations, the submissive to agree, and both of them abide by their obligations within the relationship?

yeah... It would seem to be rather rare actually...... otherwise I suspect you wouldn't see the relationship failures that you see. Interestingly enough... it's been my experience that you see the same people failing over and over again... so they infact increase the total relationship failures that occur.

mmmmmmmmmmm amazingly punishment doesn't seem to be keeping relationships together! Kinda like the married couple that has a little one to bond the relationship closer together.. .when in most cases it just increases the problems. When the relationship is working... punishment can add to the relationship dynamic for those that have punishment as part of their dynamic. Not unlike a happy married "vanilla" couple that has a littleone.

Using fear as a way to correct mistakes is pretty bad. To be prefectly honest, I really would not have punished a girl in the scenario the op stated, I was just kidding. (I'm evil that way, I like to tease)

I would more than likely have accepted that she made a simple mistake-and had her finish what she was supposed to do. While I went off to do something else. No drama, no sturm and drang.

I would be confident that her own guilt would do all of the correcting neccesasry-if she really cared. If not, all of the punishment in the world would make no difference-it would only lead to resentment.

I still think-if you use punishment, rather than postive reenforcement-you are shitting where you sleep. I perfer my home NOT to be a stye.

_____________________________

I seem to be some wierd combination of Ren and Stimpy

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 39

RE: Square table - 10/23/2007 6:36:52 PM

DominaSmartass

Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

The proverbial straw that has led to my meltdown is the latest thread posed as a round table discussion (and god help us, he lists it with a number one as if to hint there will be additional ‘fun’ in future posts.) It’s a game, the OP says. It will be fun, he says.. Play along, he says. He will pick a submissive crime and invites responses for “serious as well as funny” ideas on punishment. It makes me sad, as well as a little angry because it comes across as so much anticipatory……glee.

Some people actually are sadists you know. ;) They sometimes do find glee in imagining things that they can do to make someone else's experience unpleasant. I personally don't like the realities of punishment in a relationship cause it would indicate something being wrong in the dynamic, the communication, etc., but that doesn't mean that fantasizing about punishing someone, excessively and unfairly, isn't really hot! I think that's where at least some of the punishment threads come from.

_____________________________

“These S&M people ... they are bossy! There’s also a creepy connection between leather sex, ‘Star Trek’ and the Renaissance Faire.”

- Comedian Margaret Cho

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 40

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