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Padriag -> RE: painstlut training (8/2/2005 6:36:46 PM)
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quote:
Incidentally, I'm heading to the library tomorrow to look into those authors you recommended. Any specific works I should look for?
Sure, here's a booklist
Beyond Freedom and Dignity – B. F. Skinner; ISBN: 0872206270
About Behaviorism – B. F. Skinner; ISBN: 0394716183
The Behavior of Organisms – B. F. Skinner; ISBN: 087411487X
Motivation and Personality – Abraham H Maslow, Robert Frager, James Fadiman; ISBN: 0060419873
Toward a Psychology of Being – Abraham H Maslow, Richard Lowry (Editor); ISBN: 0471293091
Psychological Reactance: A Theory of Freedom and Control - Sharon S. Brehm, Jack W. Brehm; ISBN: 012129840X
Perspectives on Cognitive Dissonance – R. A. Wicklund, J. W. Brehm; ISBN: 0898594197
Understanding Human Nature - Alrfed Adler; ISBN 1568381956
The Individual Psychology of Alfred Adler - Aflred Adler; ISBN: 0061311545
Adlerian Counseling: A Practicioner's Approach - Thomas J Sweeney; ISBN: 1560325100
The Six Pillars of Self Esteem – Nathaniel Branden; ISBN: 0553374397
Honoring the Self - Nathaniel Branden; ISBN: 0553268147
And these last two can be useful in understanding the role of endorphins, dopamines, seratonin and other neurotransmitters as they relate to the perception of pain and other sensations.
Biochemistry and Behavior – Solomon H. Snyder; ISBN: 0262690519
Drugs and the Brain – Solomon H. Snyder; ISBN: 0716760177
That ought to keep you busy for awhile [;)]
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ORIGINAL: Painmaker1
Learning to "like" pain, more that just tolerate it, can be gradually introduced to the sub/slave in gradual steps.
Absolutely agree, for someone who has never done this and is not naturally a masochist it is generally best to go slow and gradually step things up over time.
Getting back to the original questions...
Can you train a slave to enjoy pain if they are not a masochist?
The short answer is yes, its possible. But there are a number of factors to be considered in that answer. First. of course, there has to be consent on the part of the submissive and this is important not just for ethical reasons but by willingly giving consent the submissive is opening up to the possibility mentally which is important to the process. Second, the submissive has to be put into a situation where pain can be introduced alongside positive factors. One of the most common situations is during sex, but in fact it can be any situation which eroticizes pain. I'll deal with this more below. The dominant needs to know the submisive well enough to know what kinds of stimulii the submissive strongly responds to negatively and strongly responds to positively. Then its matter of creating a "scene" where there are strong positive stimulus, controlled amounts of pain (very mild at first) and negative factors have been eliminated or reduced. Start with mild forms of pain and then gradually stage it up over successive sessions until the desired point is reached. BTW, that's something else, someone does not have to be taken to the point of craving to be whipped bloody with a single tail... you can stop at whatever level an individual couple is comfortable with.
A girl told me she had 'jealousy beaten out of her, and now never felt jealousy'... could that be true?
No. With enough fear and intimidation you can get someone to surpress, even deeply surpress, their emotions including jealousy. But you cannot beat it out of someone. To deal with jealousy in a healthy way you have to get to its root causes and deal with those. These are often things like insecurity, poor self esteem, lack of self confidence, cultural values, etc. Some of the books I recommended above, particularly those by Nathaniel Branden and Alfred Adler deal directly with this issue.
Would the slave really enjoy pain or just be trained to express enjoyment?
Either is possible. Not everyone has it in them to become an masochist. But you can raise the level of pain tolerance of almost anyone. Some submissives learn to tolerate certain levels of pain, without actually enjoying it, as a way to serve and be found pleasing. They don't enjoy the pain but they do enjoy knowing they've pleased their dominant with this form of service (and sometimes this is more pleasing than a masochist because it is a very sincere form of submission). But some do become masochist, or rather you might view it as having the inner masochist that was always there finally brought to the surface.
Conversely would the slave still feel jealousy but just be trained not to express it?
Yes, if the actual causes of the jealousy weren't dealt with then certainly they would still feel it. They may surpress it so deeply they aren't consciously aware of it themselves in which case it might surface in other ways (acting out, bratty behavior, infidelity, etc.), the subconscious has a surprising ability to find its own voice.
What does Sex have to do with Pain: Eroticizing Pain
Here's the short explanation of why eroticizing pain can trigger a pain as pleasure response. The body naturally produces endorphines, which have an opiate-like effect on the brain, and there are two times when this production really spikes that are of interest to us. One is when you feel pain, its the body's way of helping you cope with injury and pain by using endorphins to moderate and dull the pain signals being sent to your brain (there are other chemicals involved here actually, such as dopamine, seratonin, tryptophane and a few others, but I'm not up to a neurochemistry crash course today [;)] ). Runner's sometimes talk about getting a "runner's high", a point they reach when they have pushed their body to the limit and kept going... and then get a euphoric, almost serene, feeling that allows them to keep running inspite of the pain (and in fact no longer feeling the pain in some cases) their body is experiencing... that's endorphines at work. There's another instance of interest to us when endorphines really spike... during sex... specifically during orgasm. Its what gives you that "buzz" you feel from cumming. Most people experience an increase in the level of their pain tolerance during sex, its why you can do things during sex that would hurt like hell any other time (ie "rough sex").
So now we come to eroticizing pain... here's what happens. Create an erotic situation where the brain is now receiving sexual stimulus and begins preparing for sex and eventual orgasm... endorphine levels start going up, other chemical balances start changing as the mind gears up for fun. Now... in the middle of that introduce pain. Here's the tricky bit, you want to introduce enough pain to trigger a mild endorphine response but not so much pain it destroys the "mood", this is why you start small and work your way up with this method. The result is your body is now releasing extra amounts of endorphines, its like taking a double shot of whiskey to the brain... WHAM! The brain is expecting sexual pleasure, it suddenly has pain added, but because of the higher than normal levels of endorphines you get a more intense buzz. The submissive may or may not still perceive the pain, or may feel the pain in a muted sense but it is overwhelmed by the "good sensations and excitations". And that's the basics of eroticizing pain and teaching the mind to perceive pain as pleasure. Now, continue that over a period of time, as per Pavlov's dog, and you eventually get a strong enough association of pain with pleasure that the submissive gets horny at the mention of being flogged and enjoys it, even orgasms from it.
And that is the underlying principle at work which makes the process Painmaker1 described in his post possible.
Incidentally, this process works on dominants just as well as submissives and I have seen a few cases where a dominant instructs a submissive to flog them or otherwise get rough during sex because it gives the dominant that same "buzz."
And now for a word from out sponsor...
I'd like to side track for a moment and address the whole idea of "beating jealousy out of someone" or any other emotion for that matter. While it is possible to use fear, intimidation, brutality and threats to force submission from someone, to force them to surpress their feelings; it is something that I personally find ethically reprehensible. This should not be our way, these should not and need not be our tools. I would compare it to this...
The Tyrrant
Using fear, intimidation, brutality and threats is like being a tyrrant dictator who uses such means to enforce control over a people. They may obey, but they do it out of fear. They may errect statues, have parades, and sing happy birthday to him on his birthday, but it will be because of the fear of the consequences of what might happen if they don't do those things, not any actual love.
The Leader
In contrast you have the leader who inspires people, who builds them up, encourages them, gives them strength, removes fear or at least provides hope the fear can be defeated and you have somone who will be loved and followed out of devotion. Soldiers willingly follow that kind of leader into the worst combat situations, even to the point of sacrificing their own lifes, because of that love and devotion. Only love can inspire self sacrifice, fear never can.
It is my feeling and belief that dominants ought to aspire to be that kind of dominant leader, one who is served out of love, respect and devotion, but never fear or intimidation. A good dominant, a dominant leader, would never attempt to "beat jealousy" out of a submissive. Nor would he attempt to gain submission through any other form of brutality or fear. That's not submission, that's not control, that's just being a bully. There is nothing to say a dominant leader cannot also be a sadist, have dark fantasies, enjoy being rough, engage in humiliation play, etc. But the dominant leader does these things as consensual play with a partner who willingly consents out of love, devotion, the desire to please and respect. The Tyrrant may do the same things, but ellicits compliance from a partner out of fear of what will happen if they don't comply... whether that fear be of a worse beating, or being abruptly kicked out the door with nothing, or through guilt trips that break the submissive down until they feel obligated to comply. This is something I feel strongly about and I wanted to address the point.
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