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RE: Manipulation positive/negative - 8/2/2005 9:58:43 AM   
cheekybottom


Posts: 69
Joined: 5/28/2005
Status: offline 		Is manipulation a bad thing?


quote:

Clay cannot become the cup alone, it needs manipulation to become more than what it already is. dark~angel


quote:

Manipulation comes down to three basics: intent, desire, and persistence. ~Fidelity


You’ve both expressed yourself wonderfully thank you.

quote:

Domination is like this. A dominant will find a submissive that can be manipulated into what he/she wants and if they can't - will move onto someone else. dark~angel


Take head here pinkpleasures she has shared much wisdom and experience in fewer words than I.

quote:

I see "manipulation" as being something like a grifter working a mark: judging their reactions and stimulating the ones most advantageous for you, whether through deceit or simple cunning. On the other hand, a lot of your responses are putting it the way I'd define "interaction": working with the elements in a scene (used in a wider sense here, not a D/S sense), basic cause-and-effect stuff. I'd prefer to be considered as interacting rather than manipulating, because I parse manipulation as a form of control through subversion and that seems awfully disrespectful to someone you're supposed to trust... either with accepting your control, or with control over you. ~Veav


Aptly put. I can’t help but compare this to those who prefer spirituality over the word love, smiles to each his own.

Thank you everyone this is brilliant!

~d~


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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Manipulation positive/negative - 8/2/2005 10:27:56 AM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline
quote:

This I have never understood within a D/s structure. If you are wanting to give control to your dominant, why would you try to take it back subversively? Even if it is "subtle", as soon as a manipulation is performed, are you not trying to control the dominant?


This i can answer.

Giving up total control, and even partial control takes a great deal of trust, depth and confidence in the other person. When you give this control, you want to know the other person will cherish it, take care of it, and use it well. If the control you give can be so easily taken back from them, then it stands to reason they didnt have a very good grip on it in the first place. And if you go and give all of your control to a person who cant keep a hold of it, then you have given foolishly and are therefore unsafe. Its like if you can take control from a Dominant, then they arent really Dominant after all.

Its like 20 dollars.... would anyone here reasonably give another person 20 dollars if they were going to lose it?

(in reply to MrThorns)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Manipulation positive/negative - 8/2/2005 11:38:41 AM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cheekybottom

I like to draw on the word manipulation when writing for contrasting purposes after all it is an applied action and can be used either positively or negatively depending upon how it is employed-exploitatively or skillfully. However it has been my experience through forum writing that it brings on a knee jerk reaction of complete and utter negativism. And because of this I feel it is one of many words completely misunderstood and immediately taken out of context.



Look it up on wikipedia.

This just reminds me of all the threads where people argue over dictionary definitions of words.

Manipulation brings on a reaction of negativism because it is a negative way to describe behaviour.

What is fascinating to me is what motivates you to try to influence others use of language by your writing.

but in answer to your questions

What is the first idea that comes to mind when you put Domination and Manipulation together? A dominant does not need to use manipulation to have his or her way.

What is your first reaction when submissive and manipulation are linked together? topping from the bottom

and now I am going to go look up the word for a person who loves words..... a wordplay fetish, cool ;)





(in reply to cheekybottom)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Manipulation positive/negative - 8/2/2005 12:01:09 PM   
SteelBondager


Posts: 86
Joined: 5/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Being able to manipulate situations shows not only an AWARENESS of the world around us, a desire to INTERACT with the world around us, taking OPPORTUNITIES as they are given to us (which is why being opportunistic tends to get a bad rap as well), and in some ways making yourself a key in the entire process of where you are in life, rather than simply letting people and situations roll you over helplessly.


I like this observation, Emerald.



I think the connotation of malicious intent is what makes this subject difficult (and therefore interesting).

Fidelity's two builders show this. What if both builders intend to remodel their houses with the utmost care and respect? Based on intent alone, we might assume that both houses will be beautiful. Despite intentions, both houses could collapse.

Maybe it's the effect we have to look at. If a dominant's manipulation ends up damaging the submissive, what good is it? If a submissive's manipulation ends up aiding the dominant, what evil has been done, especially if the relationship dynamic remains intact?

After all, it is both parties that determine the relationship dynamic, which is what we're talking about here - what really goes on between two (or more) people behind closed doors and open windows. ;)

< Message edited by SteelBondager -- 8/2/2005 12:03:42 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Manipulation positive/negative - 8/2/2005 12:09:27 PM   
Veav


Posts: 150
Joined: 8/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou
and now I am going to go look up the word for a person who loves words..... a wordplay fetish, cool ;)


log•o•phile , n. a lover of words. [LOGO- + -PHILE]

See also: logomaniac. }:D

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(in reply to kisshou)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Manipulation positive/negative - 8/2/2005 12:15:30 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
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From: UK
Status: offline
*POKES Veav*

Hey - ya beat me to it...lol

pst... kisshou - try lexiconophilist too!

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Manipulation positive/negative - 8/2/2005 1:24:51 PM   
MstrHellsFury


Posts: 388
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline 		I see a neverending ebb and flow here...for each has their own opinion...who does what..who uses what and to what degree...is it ever right..is it always wrong...can one do it and the other can't...the dynamics of all our relationships vary in some way..if only just that... how to put it...ball hair width in distance...to deal in absoluts may mean you're absolutly wrong...or you could be right...now have I manipulated you into anything..changed any minds...cast a different light on anything said...or just completly confused the whole thread...


Fury

(in reply to cheekybottom)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Manipulation positive/negative - 8/2/2005 3:02:42 PM   
cheekybottom


Posts: 69
Joined: 5/28/2005
Status: offline
quote:

What is fascinating to me is what motivates you to try to influence others use of language by your writing. ~Kisshou


You’re writing my writing we all influence each other. You’re statement right here has just done so smiles.
quote:

What is the first idea that comes to mind when you put Domination and Manipulation together? A dominant does not need to use manipulation to have his or her way. ~Kisshou


I find this to be true when the Dominant and submissive are on even keel. However at times of imbalance subtle plays of manipulation become a necessary tool to right the situation.

A confident Dominant will lead the best way he is able just as a willing and giving submissive will follow but only if his directional efforts affect her.

My motivation stems from wanting to know as much as I can which I can’t always get from books or experience sometimes like now it comes from people such as you. I like manipulation, I see the positive in it, not just the negative and so I came here to find out if there was anyone else who felt the same way and could offer me a different perspective along the same lines. Things are never one sided, mine or yours to which I can appreciate the differences like now.

I’m here for that one great thing.

quote:

I see a never-ending ebb and flow here...for each has their own opinion...who does what..who uses what and to what degree...is it ever right..is it always wrong...can one do it and the other can't...the dynamics of all our relationships vary in some way..if only just that... how to put it...ball hair width in distance...to deal in absolutes may mean you're absolutely wrong...or you could be right...now have I manipulated you into anything..changed any minds...cast a different light on anything said. ~MstrHellsFury


The answer is no smiles which is completely okay as I don’t care about right or wrong or in the right or wrong for I do not wish to shut anything out I want to absorb it all. If I’m right then maybe it is another’s turn to learn if not hopefully I have learned instead. If one can do it then possibly this gives another the courage or idea to try. Without the use of this forum board or the various subtle and or extremeness which shape our relationship differences then our learning slows down and becomes stagnant for there would be no extenuation of our knowledge as we know it ala open forum. Right or wrong show me another way, share with me today, and allow me to grow as I am wont to do.

Thank you,
~d~


< Message edited by cheekybottom -- 8/2/2005 3:11:23 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Manipulation positive/negative - 8/2/2005 6:18:32 PM   
MasterTemujin


Posts: 42
Joined: 5/2/2005
Status: offline 		I am not sure if this fits here or not. But here it goes. I spent many years in the military and trained civilians to become basically trained military personnel. The utilization of manipulation both positive and negative are driving forcces in their training. Initially breaking them down and then building them up into a cohessive military unit. The same basic principles can be applied to the training of a sub /slave. In the beginning with the sub / slave, the raw material is taken and them molded into what the Dom/Domme - Master/Mistress desire them to become.

R/S,

Master Temujin

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Manipulation positive/negative - 8/3/2005 4:25:34 AM   
wetsub000


Posts: 91
Joined: 3/6/2005
Status: offline 		Wow ... such emphatic defense of the word!

What I was trying to say was that the word (as defined by say The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language) can have by DEFINITION negative connotations. This dictionary defines manipulation as:
1 a)The act or practice of manipulating.
b)The state of being manipulated.
2. Shrewd or devious management, especially for one's own advantage

Merriam-Webster Online defines it as:
1 : to treat or operate with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner
2 a : to manage or utilize skillfully b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
3 : to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose

Any word which by definition relates to deviousness, artful or unfair can't be all good. This is why it has a negative connotation, it can have a negative definition.

(in reply to cheekybottom)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Manipulation positive/negative - 8/3/2005 4:47:26 AM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		wetsub exactly! That is what I was trying to say also.

When you write you get to choose what words to use , so if she wants to be positive why not choose: create, form, mold .....


People on the boards chant communication as a mantra, but if someone is going to try to put a positive spin on words with negative connotations , it will make communication even more difficult.

That is why instead of a BDSM discussion this is off topic .

(in reply to wetsub000)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Manipulation positive/negative - 8/3/2005 5:19:29 AM   
cheekybottom


Posts: 69
Joined: 5/28/2005
Status: offline 		I can’t fully agree or disagree with either of your statements wetsub/kishou. Neither of us is right in this instance. The basis for my thread was not to convince others that this word is positive or negative because we already know they are and I don’t need dictionary definition to prove it; I’ve already read them smiles as others have.

Irregardless I’ll still choose manipulation over mold and create simply because I enjoy doing so. The sheer strength of this word with all its contrasting elements
quote:

positive spin on words with negative connotations
*which should be based on intent rather than a pigeon holed knee jerk response*, the power it holds over me, yeah, noting gets my attention faster than a powerful word.

Off topic, no, I don’t think so not based on what others had to say about manipulation in correlation to training or how they feel about such a word in reference to another’s orientation.

~d~


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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Manipulation positive/negative - 8/3/2005 6:26:32 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wetsub000

Wow ... such emphatic defense of the word!

What I was trying to say was that the word (as defined by say The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language) can have by DEFINITION negative connotations. This dictionary defines manipulation as:
1 a)The act or practice of manipulating.
b)The state of being manipulated.
2. Shrewd or devious management, especially for one's own advantage

Merriam-Webster Online defines it as:
1 : to treat or operate with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner
2 a : to manage or utilize skillfully b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
3 : to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose

Any word which by definition relates to deviousness, artful or unfair can't be all good. This is why it has a negative connotation, it can have a negative definition.


I think that both the webster and the american standard dictionaries show positive definitions, as well as the negative. I would suggest that because you view and understand the definitions of manipulation as negative, that is what you see first. That is what You highlighted.
This is what could be seen -

1 a)The act or practice of manipulating.
b)The state of being manipulated.
2. Shrewd or devious management, especially for one's own advantage

(Shrewd suggests a sharp intelligence and often an intuitive grasp of practical considerations)

Merriam-Webster Online defines it as:
1 : to treat or operate with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner
2 a : to manage or utilize skillfully
b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
3 : to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose


Further delving into different definitions provides...

manipulation

n 1: exerting shrewd or devious influence especially for one's own advantage; "his manipulation of his friends was scandalous" [syn: use] 2: the action of touching with the hands or the skillful use of the hands

Manipulation can mean many things - just like the slave/submission debates that rage asunder - manipulation is what you make it - no more, no less.

I choose not to manipulated in the negative - but to be manipulated into the postive.
Others, choose as you.
It is all relative.

Peace and Love







< Message edited by dark~angel -- 8/3/2005 6:37:29 AM >

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...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Manipulation positive/negative - 8/3/2005 6:29:14 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

When you write you get to choose what words to use , so if she wants to be positive why not choose: create, form, mold .....


Because manipulation has a different meaning to create, form and mold. Yet it doesn't have to be negative.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to kisshou)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Manipulation positive/negative - 8/3/2005 6:41:53 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		See this is why I think we should ban all dictionary entries from being allowed in any discussion.

Dictionaries are NOT meant to be used to define how a word is USED or APPLIED. Dictionaries list several definitions for a word because they can ALL apply for nearly all circumstances but they do not ALL apply to any ONE circumstance.

Dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Manipulation positive/negative - 8/10/2005 5:30:07 AM   
DomButNotForgotn


Posts: 108
Joined: 6/2/2004
Status: offline 		you wrote:

What is the first idea that comes to mind when you put Domination and Manipulation together?

What is your first reaction when submissive and manipulation are linked together?

=============================

Well, manipulation has some negative overtones to me - an emotionally charged word. Combining it with Domination makes me think of getting some poor sub to so something they really don't want to do, perhaps.

My first reaction when submissive and manipulation are linked together? Sounds like great fun. Can I start on her now? Can I manipulate her as much as I want? Please?

(in reply to cheekybottom)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Manipulation positive/negative - 8/10/2005 5:36:24 AM   
zaynab


Posts: 377
Joined: 6/20/2005
Status: offline 		I prefer to call it 'manuevering'.

(in reply to cheekybottom)
Profile   Post #: 37
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