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Forced submission - 10/29/2007 8:43:38 PM   
desertdancer


Posts: 1095
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline 		In the Ask a Master section there is a posting by a young girl about forced submission.  The idea of forced submission makes me wonder a few things and I didn't want to hijack the other posting.

I can understand the fantasy of forced submission.  I can understand the craving to feel the power of another being forced upon you.  I love play with Master when he "forces" me to do things.

What I don't understand is for the ones who want the real thing.  To really be forced, are they really wanting that or is it some romanticised ideal?   What happens when they do get it, will they then turn sweet towards the man who forced them or will they grow resentment? 

I wonder also what happens when the forcing is over, when her will is really broken.  Does he/she still crave it?  Does the need for the forcing go away, or is it something that the person will always seek? If they do seek the forced submission, will they then need to go from Master to Master to get what they crave?

Please understand I am in no way passing judgement, I am just curious.

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RE: Forced submission - 10/29/2007 9:18:06 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Usually they mean they want to be "leaned on" really hard, kept on a really short leash, and generally have lots of attention and focus put onto them- it not only makes them feel special and worthy of so much attention, but it also releases any issues of guilt or responsibility they may have on doing things that "good people don't really do."

However, this actually isn't a very good way to have a relationship last in the long term for MOST people.  It's exhausting, draining and doesn't serve the ones involved over the long term.

If breaking actually occurs, you either tend to get a very well tended obedient animal, a useless scrap who requires constant attention, or a type of unformed clay very adaptable.

However, if we're talking about just a hot forceplay scene...well those are just hot :)

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RE: Forced submission - 10/29/2007 9:22:30 PM   
desertdancer


Posts: 1095
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline 		Thank you LA, I was curious about the long term effect.  I wonder where the relationship goes once the Forcing is over.  Is there room to grow from there, or does it pitter out.

And Oh yes, I agree forceplay is hot.


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RE: Forced submission - 10/29/2007 9:42:25 PM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline 		Some people will only submit when they feel it  "not a game." I think they are probably just intensity junkies. But in a lot of forced scenes, I just pulled out the stops. Which is why a lot of the things I use are VERY common hard limits to most kinksters. It's the love/ hate dichotomy of control, the feeling that a Dom can really put the boots to you-and will........

That is a NEED for some.  As to how healthy it is? Who decides?

My usual test is..."Can they be functional after-if they have to be alone?"

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RE: Forced submission - 10/30/2007 7:40:45 AM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		I don't think anybody wants the real thing. Because the real thing is horrific. Being kidnapped at gun point, beaten to a pulp, ordered to do stuff to a person who made you nauseous, and then beaten again. That's abuse, it isn't the fantasy forced submission where your limits are magically known and nothing really is too far.

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RE: Forced submission - 10/30/2007 8:57:56 AM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

I don't think anybody wants the real thing. Because the real thing is horrific. Being kidnapped at gun point, beaten to a pulp, ordered to do stuff to a person who made you nauseous, and then beaten again. That's abuse, it isn't the fantasy forced submission where your limits are magically known and nothing really is too far.

I have to agree with this. I think when people asked to be "forced" it is with a romantized notion right out of a book or movie. Then again a person can develop "stockholm syndrome" if it is indeed FORCED and have a great sympathy for their captors. The human mind is a very complex thing and toattempt to say what the definite outcome would be is very difficult.

I would think over time this "forced" situation would become less intense and once that intensity is gone the person would be ready to move onto another who could give them that thrill once more.

Just my two cents,
~Lashra


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RE: Forced submission - 10/30/2007 11:57:33 AM   
slavemaia


Posts: 395
Joined: 8/26/2006
Status: offline 		Hmmm, i'd ask them what they mean. i don't know what they want or get out of it because - heh heh - i'm not them.

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RE: Forced submission - 10/30/2007 12:15:22 PM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

I don't think anybody wants the real thing. Because the real thing is horrific. Being kidnapped at gun point, beaten to a pulp, ordered to do stuff to a person who made you nauseous, and then beaten again. That's abuse, it isn't the fantasy forced submission where your limits are magically known and nothing really is too far.

I have to agree with this. I think when people asked to be "forced" it is with a romantized notion right out of a book or movie. Then again a person can develop "stockholm syndrome" if it is indeed FORCED and have a great sympathy for their captors. The human mind is a very complex thing and toattempt to say what the definite outcome would be is very difficult.

I would think over time this "forced" situation would become less intense and once that intensity is gone the person would be ready to move onto another who could give them that thrill once more.

Just my two cents,
~Lashra



I disagree here. I disagree that forced submission is pure fantasy, unless it's something like 'being broken' or desired as a way of life or a role - that IS fantasy and here I would agree with the posters above.

However like it or not we all carry some sort of emotional baggage from the past, and there is a slight difference between the way others perceive us and the way we perceive ourselves.

Forced submission can therefore be seen as nothing other than 'tough love', and can be required by a submissive from a trusted Dominant to help overcome or even break down a negative pattern of behaviour, a weakness or an incorrect or appropriate attitude. However this requires three things: firstly absolute trust between both Dominant and submissive and a good power exchange dynamic, secondly a very good awareness of the specific nature of the problem area of the behaviour area or attitude, what triggers it and what effect it has, and finally an effective method to break down or modify the problem area which doesn't cause any psychological or emotional damage to the submissive.

A need for such 'forced' submission usually arises from the submissive feeling that they have no control over this issue, that they are unable to address the issue themselves, and this usually also is accompanied by feelings of regret, guilt, or sorrow over some event or relationship in the past. This explains the motivation behind requiring such 'forced submission'. It's nothing more than a cry for help.

Which also explains why total forced submission or a wish to be broken can be seen as a red flag, as it indicates that someone has issues with themselves and are unable to accept themselves for who they truly are. While BDSM can be used to help people overcome their issues, to develop their characters and to become better people BDSM in no way should ever be seen as either a form of therapy or as a replacement to therapy. Anyone needing to be broken or to undergo total forced submission in my opinion genuinely needs professional medical help either from a qualified psychiatrist or qualified, trained clinical psychologist.

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RE: Forced submission - 10/30/2007 12:19:40 PM   
phedre81


Posts: 56
Joined: 10/29/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

I don't think anybody wants the real thing. Because the real thing is horrific. Being kidnapped at gun point, beaten to a pulp, ordered to do stuff to a person who made you nauseous, and then beaten again. That's abuse, it isn't the fantasy forced submission where your limits are magically known and nothing really is too far.


This answer really hit it on the head for me--when I fantasize about any sort of "forcing" it's the idea that my limits are magically known, and nothing really crosses them that really attracts me.

I think the "real thing" (being forced to submit to someone you have no desire to be subject to) is absolutely terrifying, and...without wanting to pass judgment (b/c, like the OP, I really just don't GET it, not trying to say it's "wrong"), it seems like it would violate the "consensual" clause of what most people in the scene consider acceptable play.

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RE: Forced submission - 10/30/2007 1:10:55 PM   
Decimus


Posts: 174
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline 		Phedre81, I agree with you, but I change the wording a bit, I call it "forced to a point" and that point is known to your dom(me) and they respect that, however hard or fast they take you there or make you do something. There are some limits one would never cross. Now unlike some people, when I say "forced to a point" I don't actually mean at least for myself that I wouldn't go over that point, but instead I wouldn't find enjoyment from it and the "senerio" would become very fight or flight emphasis on fight :).

Now for Celeste:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43
I don't think anybody wants the real thing. Because the real thing is horrific. Being kidnapped at gun point...


I don't know ... forced kidnapping is kind of sexy, lol

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RE: Forced submission - 10/30/2007 1:33:13 PM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		Real force cant be understood then its happened to you, i think for most its a romantic ideal not the same fear at all. People often link things, people who self harm are seen as replacing that with spanking, people who have been raped are sexually dysfunctional etc etc thing is in reality they are as far away from what actually happens, rape has nothing to do with sex and being spanked by someone is differant from being in such a bad place that physical harm is the only escape. They are completely seperate.

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RE: Forced submission - 10/30/2007 1:43:07 PM   
Decimus


Posts: 174
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline 		I fully agree, however case in point...if Aerith kidnapped me, even if I did not know it was her until later, I would enjoy it ...the fear and hense the adrenaline would be extremely high...which in instinct and the primal human nature comes out.

Now you may wonder what that has to do with anything, but the fact of the matter is, if it turned out to be Aerith, she would subdue me and it would be very enjoyable, if it was anyone else whom kidnapped me well they'd have another thing coming, which would also be enjoyable

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RE: Forced submission - 10/30/2007 3:44:41 PM   
littleone35


Posts: 2828
Joined: 2/17/2005
Status: offline 		I am not sure if i would like to be forced.  When Master ties me up i somtimes ask if i can fight him (if i did not ask first it would not be being HIS good girl).  It is not so much forced as overpowered.  I know he is much stronger them me, still it is a thrill to have him overpower me and tie me up despite all my struggling.   I still don't see that as forced.

Matt's littleone

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RE: Forced submission - 10/30/2007 4:54:20 PM   
Decimus


Posts: 174
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline 		In most cases I would never resist Aerith at all, for as you stated Littleone it is not our place to resist our dom(me)s. However if I did not know it was her or it was someone else entirely I would resist as it is in my nature to only be submissive to Aerith and no one else.

Edit: In relation to a kidnapping though it is expected the kidnapee will resist the kidnapper so in that case I would probably resist although it would depend on the situation and conditions.

< Message edited by Decimus -- 10/30/2007 4:56:27 PM >

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RE: Forced submission - 10/30/2007 4:57:33 PM   
mikierotten


Posts: 20
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		yes i accept whatever my Master/Mistress decides for me, i expect to not like what a Superior Sadist will do to me or make me do, but thats slavery. slave = property.

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RE: Forced submission - 10/30/2007 6:12:59 PM   
phedre81


Posts: 56
Joined: 10/29/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mikierotten

yes i accept whatever my Master/Mistress decides for me, i expect to not like what a Superior Sadist will do to me or make me do, but thats slavery. slave = property.


That's a dangerous place to draw your boundaries.  What if your Master wanted you to kill a puppy?  Yourself?  I'm just saying, nearly everyone has a limit SOMEWHERE--mine would be truly being forced, by someone I didn't choose to submit to, maybe yours wouldn't. :)

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