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"Yeah - sure!" - 10/30/2007 12:59:39 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Progressing down the winding road of life I'm learning to rely less and less on the spoken word and putting more value on actions and activity. I've long professed that the spoken word, especially when not in the physical presence of the person, is one of the worse forms of communication, second only to the written word. Its gotten to the point that now I've placed "Yeah - sure!" as one of the optional accepted definitions of the word "maybe" or even the word"no". 

There is always an excuse though. Circumstance change, conditions change, the planets are in a different position; all true, all accurate - how can you argue those facts as false? Besides, the debate would would entail hearing a bag full of "yeah -but...s"; the most common rationalization given for the "yeah-sure!".

Are you honest with your "yeah -sure!"? Talking and discussing the future is easy. Most of us have a knack of escaping a difficult discussion about the future by saying "yeah sure!" The hope is either the situation or opportunity won't come up, or that when it does enough equity and time has been invested in the relationship that the other party won't press the issue.

One thing worse then the "yeah sure!" resulting in a "yeah but..." is the "well...okay" with a tone of resignation and body language to match. I don't know about how some others feel about that, but that type of response and/or the accompanying associated "enthusiasm" generates a 'soft-on' similar to the thought of seeing a nude Rosie O'Donald.

Out of curiosity, how many of your profile "yeah sure!" items of interest would get  knee jerk "yeah-but..." response if the opportunity presented itself?
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: "Yeah - sure!" - 10/30/2007 1:12:32 PM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline 		I am actual pretty literal but I am and was raised by parents that one is a doctor and another is a sociologist so preciseness and reading things accurately into things was probably obnoxiously high.

In terms about specific things in this life on our profile this is much like the thread on profiles right now. The answers are based on the people. For some they are literal based on experiences. For some they are literal in they truly believe it or have experience. Then there are others who might have given them one second of thought or are open if they reach step two thousand and twelve in the relationship and the situation is exactly like the fairytale they picture the event in their head to be then they might think of doing it.

I should also point out what you rip is actually consider the correct way to say no in Eastern culture. It is considered rude just to say no and to phrase yes in a way and use body language to convey the yes really means no and for the other person to then let you off the hook. Not saying it is a positive aspect but just pointing out the complexity of life.




_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

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RE: "Yeah - sure!" - 10/30/2007 1:18:16 PM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Progressing down the winding road of life I'm learning to rely less and less on the spoken word and putting more value on actions and activity. I've long professed that the spoken word, especially when not in the physical presence of the person, is one of the worse forms of communication, second only to the written word. Its gotten to the point that now I've placed "Yeah - sure!" as one of the optional accepted definitions of the word "maybe" or even the word"no". 

There is always an excuse though. Circumstance change, conditions change, the planets are in a different position; all true, all accurate - how can you argue those facts as false? Besides, the debate would would entail hearing a bag full of "yeah -but...s"; the most common rationalization given for the "yeah-sure!".

Are you honest with your "yeah -sure!"? Talking and discussing the future is easy. Most of us have a knack of escaping a difficult discussion about the future by saying "yeah sure!" The hope is either the situation or opportunity won't come up, or that when it does enough equity and time has been invested in the relationship that the other party won't press the issue.

One thing worse then the "yeah sure!" resulting in a "yeah but..." is the "well...okay" with a tone of resignation and body language to match. I don't know about how some others feel about that, but that type of response and/or the accompanying associated "enthusiasm" generates a 'soft-on' similar to the thought of seeing a nude Rosie O'Donald.

Out of curiosity, how many of your profile "yeah sure!" items of interest would get  knee jerk "yeah-but..." response if the opportunity presented itself?


Quite a few. The only subs I knew that got off on being diapered were humiliation freaks-or those who liked watersports to begin with. Or anything boring, like long term bondage.

I get you though........it's nice to be with womeone who has enthusiasm for a thing-because they also see the value and fun in it. Rather than just to please you in a half assed manner.

Which really isn't pleasing-so much as annoying. It's always more fun to have a girl come to you with lube running out of her cunt-holding the stuff you like to use with her-and begging with great sincerity-to do it. Rather than having to chase her down and make her do it-grudgingly.

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RE: "Yeah - sure!" - 10/30/2007 1:22:18 PM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		I dont think ive ever been a yeah sure person, im pretty honest about i do and dont like always have been. Pretending doesnt help anyone. Though i think limits are pushed far more by your self when you want so much to please them. 

_____________________________

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I don't want to be anything other than what I've been trying to be lately

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RE: "Yeah - sure!" - 10/30/2007 1:33:37 PM   
Tigrita


Posts: 484
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		I'm pretty literal in what I have in my profile.  Though of course, certain things will get there only with the right person, with trust blah blah blah...

But I try my best to communicate directly about things.  If I'm not sure about something I say so.  But I suppose you're right in that sometimes, a placating, 'well, okay', pending further discussion at a better time might work it's way in, if, say, we're hungry, I'm not able to articulate my concerns at the moment because I'm confused and conflicted, etc. .  But I don't think I'd ever say that if I really couldn't see myself being okay with it in the right circumstances, but I'd make sure we talked about it more before the time came, so it would be 'well... okay... but I'd like to talk about it more first'.  I'm probably dancing around in the circles that you hate, but I think with people who are tuned into eachother and have established good communication between them, this really isn't an issue.  And in a casual circumstance, I wouldn't be discussing things that touchy, so it really isn't an issue there. 

I do want to argue though on the value of the written word.  I find it easiest to express myself in writing because it can be tweaked and clarified to near perfection and constitues a lasting record and reference, and every point can be addressed without getting lost in tangents.  Spoken word is so spontaneous it is often confused, unfiltered, inaccurate, tangential, and it is horribly ephemeral.  Two minutes later it is 'did I say that?  No I didn't... I meant...'  and 'didn't I tell you that? Sorry, I meant to, I was thinking it... ' etc.  I even find it very easy to tell who I'll enjoy meeting and get along with based on some good emails, I prefer it very much more than phone or fast face-to-face meets.

~ J

_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

(in reply to RRafe)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: "Yeah - sure!" - 10/30/2007 1:59:55 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		A unique (and much appreciated) way of saying that it's relatively easy to consent when fantasizing and/or theorizing about a thing.  And quite another when faced with the reality of it.
 
John

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"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: "Yeah - sure!" - 10/30/2007 2:03:27 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		I really try to be more than a "yeah, sure" type of person.  I don't like to lead someone down the path of thinking I "might" do something when my only purpose in doing so is in getting them to do all the things I like to do.

People can argue that a dominant has the right to decide which ones of his boys'/girls' wants and desires he will take care of and address, whether in play or in other arenas but when you put off doing something not because you are trying to teach the submissive something or because you really feel that it is best that they forgo this certain something they want/desire for now but solely because you didn't have much interest in it to start with (but gave them the impression that you were O.K. with it with a "yeah, sure"), that is no more right than a submissive stating that she has always desired anal sex, no one ever has done it right and that is why she is an anal virgin but GOD, she just hopes and knows you will because she REALLLY wants it and then, once she has the dominant...sorry, Master but we just can't seem to get this right and it hurts and I am not comfortable with it and it is now a hard limit.

I can't stand that kind of dishonest manipulation.  It is not that hard to say "I am sorry but that does not interest me as much as it does you" or "I am sorry but I don't know all I should know about that but I am continuing to learn and, if it pleases you, I will make an effort to continue".

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: "Yeah - sure!" - 10/30/2007 2:09:26 PM   
batshalom


Posts: 1990
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline 		When I was a newbie sub, I found that "Yeah! I'll do that!" might well mean "Ohhh, wow. Now that I'm faced with it, I'm not really so sure I meant it." As I progressed along this path of submission, I found that while some Doms and Masters might tolerate my backpedal with good humor, some would not. I realized I needed to be a little more ... or, rather, a LOT more clear about what was acceptable and what was not.

Submitting and surrender can be such romantic notions. The reality is that submission is often far less than romantic, sometimes boring, sometimes scary, sometimes painful, and sometimes a bit more than we bargain for even when we are faced with things that are not hard limits.

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: "Yeah - sure!" - 10/30/2007 2:34:54 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline 		two things;

It's culturally far too assertive here in the UK in general communication to say No. 'learning to say no' is a theme running through and through therapy.

I am not exempt. I often say; absolutely but mean no not really (crikes!)

About profiles; when  change my profile I don't actually change. Just a thought.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: "Yeah - sure!" - 10/30/2007 2:56:26 PM   
Mercurialdame


Posts: 66
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline 		Many of my yeah sure's, are very difficult for me to actually do. And the fact that i can do them, is down to my dominants and i's trusting relationship.
I would therefor assume, that yeah sures, can at times become "stop, orange! orange!" whilst i adjust position, or take a while to 'catch my breath before continueing'.
What id read in writing, id probably never bring into play, without face to face discussions anyhow. so id take what people write on a screen, as a guide to fantasy. IF we can make that fantasy happen is all in the negotiating, face to face part.
Which is why, i dont find partners on a online site.
Face to face at a club, a munch, or by personal intro is how i prefer to nurture my bdsm fantasies into reality. If the person cant front you in person, how the fuck are they going to be able to do the things your going to be asking of them? Its a way of cutting wheat from chaff i guess.
But as a first base, online is great. Emails and phone calls, weed out a few more. The meet for a coffee, is the clincher. Two intellegent adults, a decent set of social skills, a good dollop of chemistry and the worlds your oyster!

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: "Yeah - sure!" - 10/30/2007 6:11:07 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		As a fairly literal and scaldingly self aware person myself, it's really not likely at this point that things on my "yeah sure" list are anything but "yeah sure" things.  I'm also pretty darn good at the caveats, so I'm find with playing with X person and say "Sure, but no no no and no about that" and then playing with Y person and say "Sure, yes yes yes yes about that too!"

The downfalls of letting fantasy ahead of reality, of closing doors due to fear and ignorance, and some external watermark of "cool status" prevail over being true to one's self...

_____________________________

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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Mercurialdame)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: "Yeah - sure!" - 10/30/2007 7:44:16 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		It's one of the main reasons that I did not list any BDSM activities in my profile.  Those types of issues are best discussed face-to-face and with an opportunity to give details, ask questions, and watch reactions... not simply listed with brief qualifier like "loves" or "hates".

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: "Yeah - sure!" - 10/30/2007 8:24:56 PM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

I should also point out what you rip is actually consider the correct way to say no in Eastern culture. It is considered rude just to say no and to phrase yes in a way and use body language to convey the yes really means no and for the other person to then let you off the hook.



Not just certain Asian cultures. Anybody ever heard of a song from over 50 years ago called "Yes, we have no bananas"?

Many people consider a bold no to be rude. If you consider anything but that to be rude, and they consider doing that to be rude, you will find conversations confusing.

In addition, you don't know what their past relationships or upbringing was like. Some people were punished for flat refusals and learned to manage their lives by speaking passively. If so, then expecting them to suddenly change before they know if you're the type to go ballistic at a no is unrealistic of you.

Why not ask in a nonconfrontational manner if that yeah, sure is a definite promise or if they need to consider the matter further and get back to you if they can do it. In many ways it's similar to why females don't respond to emails we aren't interested in, if we do respond we get hassled. Similarly in many homes giving a direct refusal led to being harassed and harangued, if not worse.

(in reply to toservez)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: "Yeah - sure!" - 10/30/2007 9:39:50 PM   
krikket


Posts: 1183
Joined: 11/17/2004
From: Washington, DC Metro Area
Status: offline 		i have to admit that my first reaction was ... You betcha!! (said in my best Minnesota accent..cuz it often followed Yeah, sure...lol.

More careful reading of the OP, however, would have to be that none really fall into the category of hoping someone never calls me on an item..lol.. but there are a few things listed that i'd like to know more about, or that i've experienced once or twice, but still haven't made up my mind if it's a limit or a just don't like.

cheers,
jimini

ps:  i have to admit i went to the other side and peeked, just to be sure..lol.  It was good to review my list because i really hadn't thought much about it in a very long time, and there might have been changes. 

pps -- always like y'alls posts..thanks :)





quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Progressing down the winding road of life I'm learning to rely less and less on the spoken word and putting more value on actions and activity. I've long professed that the spoken word, especially when not in the physical presence of the person, is one of the worse forms of communication, second only to the written word. Its gotten to the point that now I've placed "Yeah - sure!" as one of the optional accepted definitions of the word "maybe" or even the word"no". 

There is always an excuse though. Circumstance change, conditions change, the planets are in a different position; all true, all accurate - how can you argue those facts as false? Besides, the debate would would entail hearing a bag full of "yeah -but...s"; the most common rationalization given for the "yeah-sure!".

Are you honest with your "yeah -sure!"? Talking and discussing the future is easy. Most of us have a knack of escaping a difficult discussion about the future by saying "yeah sure!" The hope is either the situation or opportunity won't come up, or that when it does enough equity and time has been invested in the relationship that the other party won't press the issue.

One thing worse then the "yeah sure!" resulting in a "yeah but..." is the "well...okay" with a tone of resignation and body language to match. I don't know about how some others feel about that, but that type of response and/or the accompanying associated "enthusiasm" generates a 'soft-on' similar to the thought of seeing a nude Rosie O'Donald.

Out of curiosity, how many of your profile "yeah sure!" items of interest would get  knee jerk "yeah-but..." response if the opportunity presented itself?


_____________________________

"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to bloom."

by A. Nin



When your heart speaks take good notes.





(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: "Yeah - sure!" - 10/30/2007 9:47:57 PM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		I try to be as honest and forthright as possible. Most of my, "Yeah, but..." statements are usually trying to clarify that the person really understands what's going on. "Yeah, but you understand that Vampirism isn't role play for me, right?" or, "Yeah, but you understand that I really don't want to do you up the butt, no matter how well you clean my house right?" Stuff like that.

Perhaps not what you asked. Not sure.

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: "Yeah - sure!" - 10/30/2007 10:39:14 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		I don't have anything listed on my profile because Mr. Wonderful already knows I'll "yes" to anything and such things aren't relevant to anyone else.  But I believe a lot of those items listed are really dependant on who one is with and the reasons behind doing them.  I think even if I were single, I likely wouldn't check any of those boxes, for that reason.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: "Yeah - sure!" - 10/31/2007 12:25:57 AM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline 		greetings mercnbeth,

most of the things on my profile do have caveats - in the sense that, say, i absolutely love knife play and watersports with him, but i wouldn't necessarily do those things with someone who was just topping me once or twice, or something like that. i think my one "yeah, sure!" item is electrical play - if he REALLY wanted to go there, we'd definitely go there, but i cross my fingers and thank heavens that doesn't seem to be his favorite kink ;) major squick city for me. then again, i used to say the same thing about knife play, and i crave it now...so i guess it's beneficial to have an open attitude. but i still cringe when i think about it.

in general, though, i try to communicate pretty clearly. i have gotten much better about communicating wants, needs, and concerns within my relationship, and also in terms of discussing them with new people i might be dating/playing with, so for the most part i can say that i am not a "yeah, sure!" kind of girl...anything goes with him, and i am clear about how i feel about it, and i have also become much better in terms of setting boundaries with others in my life. so generally there's no need for saying yes when i really mean, "not so much." but i spent most of my life not knowing how to say no to people, and it's difficult to overcome...so i am still learning :)

respectfully,
annabelle.


_____________________________

a'ishah (the artist formerly known as annabelle)
i have the kind of beauty that moves...

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Profile   Post #: 17
RE: "Yeah - sure!" - 10/31/2007 2:16:50 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline 		i will admit to the 'yeah-sure' answers and that was my signal that the relationship wasn't exactly the relationship i wanted.  i had always felt inside that there wouldn't be any of begrudgingly performed activities when in the right relationship.  i can't say that every single day every single activity would be with enthusiasm.  Cleaning the cat's litter box, for example, never makes me feel like it's my birthday, but i don't grumble about it either.

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: "Yeah - sure!" - 10/31/2007 8:31:28 AM   
Dnomyar


Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		To many people are waffling here. A yes is a yes and a no is a no. It seems that a lot of people dont get that concept. If someone says yeah mabey smack them upside the head.  

(in reply to eyesopened)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: "Yeah - sure!" - 10/31/2007 10:51:26 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

toservez: I should also point out what you rip is actually consider the correct way to say no in Eastern culture.
This triggered a memory. I remember an uncle from NY, wanting me to say yes or no instead of shaking my head,  telling me that in some cultures, I recall him referencing Turkey, that nodding yes actually meant no. His story was that an occupying force made it a habit of accosting people in the streets holding a hand over their mouth so they couldn't scream, and a very sharp knife to their throat and asking the person if they we loyal to the new regime. If the person shook their head no, the sharp knife would cut their throat; however if they nodded yes - it would have no effect. As a result nodding became synonymous with no in that culture. Who knows if it's an story or fact. 

But I digress...

quote:

Dnomyar: To many people are waffling here. A yes is a yes and a no is a no. It seems that a lot of people don't get that concept.
There have sure been some references of that being the case; providing more support of not trusting the written word.
Quotes from the various posters:
"i will admit to the 'yeah-sure' answers", "things on my profile do have caveats", "I try to be as honest", "my first reaction was ... You betcha!", "I'm also pretty darn good at the caveats", "I often say; absolutely but mean no not really", "I really try to be more than a "yeah, sure" type of person", "I'm pretty literal" "Quite a few.", "I am actual pretty literal".

Thanks to all for the candor and honesty, and I know some of the quotes our out of context, but it acknowledges the condition exists with most even if it is only admitted to subliminally. I enjoyed the confidence of seeing a Dominant say a very direct, "quite a few" and submissive having a gut reaction of "you betcha!".

I don't see any right answer or dogma coming from this. "Yeah - sure!" self denial would be akin to refusing to say you ever told a lie. I'm trying to understand it from the perspective of how it impacts an ever evolving and deeper growing relationship. I also think it is a more prevalent from the dominant side of the flogger. It almost must be because a "yeah - sure!" from a submissive grants the power. It is the dominant's decision not to carry it out.

Which takes us to this great insightful quote from RRafe; "It's always more fun to have a girl come to you with lube running out of her cunt-holding the stuff you like to use with her-and begging with great sincerity-to do it. Rather than having to chase her down and make her do it-grudgingly." 

There it is. That is the both the dilemma and the worst consequence of a spoken or written "Yeah-sure!" that has a meaning of "not really", or a list of "yeah buts..." implied. Time and familiarity come into play, as well as emotions which I'll address separately.

Initially it's mostly about sensations. Most of the "yeah-sure!"s in the beginning of a relationship, or casual interaction such as a meeting at a club or play party, are regarding negotiated sensations. "Can I use a wooden paddle on your ass?" "Yeah-sure! Just don't leave any marks, Okay?" "Yeah-sure!" At the end of play, the submissive observes some broken blood vessels and screams at the dominant, who replies with "yeah buts...". "...I didn't know you bruised so easily!", "...I thought you meant purple bruises!" Next thing you know there is a thread on CM wanting to know how to report and "abusive dom".

The longer the relationship goes on the more control shifts to the dominant and the issues aren't so sensation based or driven. The consideration starts to include feelings, emotions, affection; dare I say - "love".

LA can tally the number of threads that seek answers to questions in this nature; "Can a Master love a slave and still enforce and maintain discipline, and/or keep or raise the intensity of play?" I say yes, but there is more "yeah but..." than "yeah sure!" to consider in that statement. On this site I have only read of one relationship represented that there is no "yeah but..." hiding behind a unqualified "Yeah-sure!" representation. Whether she's real or not, and I'm saying that only because I've never met her or her owner in person, there has been nothing but consistency behind the relationship represented by 'daddysprop247'. But is that what we want or a desired goal?

I see myself as a very pragmatic man. I try to align my personal and philosophical believes behind reason and logic that is flexible enough to be amended in the face of changing conditions, environment, or facts. I know and have complete confidence is what I can do. I know what I want to do. I know I have the 'power' to make it happen. My "yeah buts..." are self generated; and stem from the "fun" reference of RRafe's quote.

I'm in this lifestyle and have been for all of my adult life because it is FUN for me. I enjoy the hell out of every aspect of it from the down and dirty, messy, sweaty, sex orgy sensory overload sensations; to "intellectual" debates on 'limits' or the distinguishing characteristics between the labels 'sub' and 'slave'. For me it's all FUN, to the point of having often being accused of not taking the "lifestyle" seriously. Quite the contrary, I take my FUN very seriously. When it or people take themselves too serious I usually have FUN pointing it out to them.

What's NOT fun is partaking in any activity where the person or people involved have expressed or inferred by voice inflection and/or body language, the other word bold-ed from from RRafe's quote - "grudgingly". What FUN is that?

Is it a matter of 'TRUST' that "key" element most often expressed as a requirement for a relationship? No, not really because a grudgingly given "yeah-Okay lets do it"; provides access and ability. This isn't a case of going back on your word. However to make it reality one party has to take on the act knowing that the other party is doing it "for them".

From either end of the flogger - Would you do it? Can you do it? Would you accept a "yeah-sure!" act knowing your partner is "acting" when "being true to yourself" is second only to "TRUST" as a relationship standard?

quote:

Rover: A unique (and much appreciated) way of saying that it's relatively easy to consent when fantasizing and/or theorizing about a thing.  And quite another when faced with the reality of it.
Thanks John. - And yes, determining to use power is much more difficult a decision than taking it in the first place.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 20
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