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RE: human rights - 10/31/2007 2:10:44 PM   
pinkme2


Posts: 236
Joined: 8/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkme2
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
And where are the human rights of American Citizens not to have our country invaded by illegal aliens?
Where's the fuckin' "U.N." on that?

LOL 
In the link, one of the rights was to be able to go into another country at will.  So that would "solve" our illegal issue.  LOL

As I read it, the only "right" to switch countries is under asylum from "persecution"--does their home-countries' economic failure constitute "persecution"? Or put another way, (why) does a failure to plan on THEIR part constitute an emergency on OUR part?
And also notice one of the "rights" is to RETURN HOME if they don't like it...So that would "solve" their attempts to force America to go bilingual. If they don't like America, warts&all, AS-IS, they can just go home!
After all, their "old country" is where their money--I mean LOYALTY (Yeah, right!  )--goes anyways, right?

They have a "right" right now to go home, but they don't.  They understand politics enough to get what they want.  Look at NY.

Furthermore, yes, they could claim assylum. 

(in reply to EPGAH)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: human rights - 10/31/2007 2:22:23 PM   
EPGAH


Posts: 500
Joined: 12/25/2006
Status: offline 		Yes, they work the system to steal what they "need", then wonder why the civilized entities view them as parasites...And yes, New York is a GREAT example...Or Los Angeles, where the mayor didn't quell their riots in the street, he JOINED IN!
And again, asylum from what? Their culture's own stupidity? Their lack of birth-control technology?
I fail to see why/how their problems should become ours! I think that's what most people have a "beef" against when it comes to illegals...That, and their demands of the same rights as citizens who came in the right way, their depression of working wages, bringing diseases (Do we have the right to evict/convict disease-carrying foreigns as bioweapon agents?), and general corruption of areas they occupy, which tend to become miniatures of the third-world hellholes they allegedly fled!
Violence, drugs, disease, illiteracy, inability/unwillingness to learn the language of the area they have the "right" to invade...Who WOULDN'T want more of that?

(in reply to pinkme2)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: human rights - 10/31/2007 2:23:31 PM   
pinkme2


Posts: 236
Joined: 8/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

Yes, they work the system to steal what they "need", then wonder why the civilized entities view them as parasites...And yes, New York is a GREAT example...Or Los Angeles, where the mayor didn't quell their riots in the street, he JOINED IN!
And again, asylum from what? Their culture's own stupidity? Their lack of birth-control technology?
I fail to see why/how their problems should become ours! I think that's what most people have a "beef" against when it comes to illegals...That, and their demands of the same rights as citizens who came in the right way, their depression of working wages, bringing diseases (Do we have the right to evict/convict disease-carrying foreigns as bioweapon agents?), and general corruption of areas they occupy, which tend to become miniatures of the third-world hellholes they allegedly fled!
Violence, drugs, disease, illiteracy, inability/unwillingness to learn the language of the area they have the "right" to invade...Who WOULDN'T want more of that?

I didn't say that they had a good reason to claim assylum, just in this political climate, and with the UN the way it is, it would probably be accepted.. pick a reason.

(in reply to EPGAH)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: human rights - 10/31/2007 2:47:56 PM   
EPGAH


Posts: 500
Joined: 12/25/2006
Status: offline 		Of course, if they wanted asylum, that would make them beggars, and beggars can't be choosers, so they should be if not GRATEFUL, at least make some kind of EFFORT to assimilate, rather than "force" us to change to their ways through sheer force of numbers...After all, if their ways worked, they wouldn't be fleeing here, would they?

(in reply to pinkme2)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: human rights - 10/31/2007 2:47:59 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		The "U.N." can say whatever (they) want to say but they don't have jusisdiction in the U.S. or any other country for that matter.
Gee, does that mean I could just traipse into Germany sans passport and head to the welfare office?

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to pinkme2)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: human rights - 10/31/2007 2:55:19 PM   
EPGAH


Posts: 500
Joined: 12/25/2006
Status: offline 		Of course you could "demand" it, but no other country in the world feels "morally obligated" to provide it, except the politically-correct white-guilt folks at the US...and possibly the UK, ask LadyEllen...
I think she has her own post about immigrants taking jobs, but it's about the UK...But if you take her thread and replace UK with US and replace EU with Mexico, it'll be eerily similar to our own problems!

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: human rights - 10/31/2007 2:58:22 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Gee, just another in the thousands of reasons to get out of the "U.N."
Go Ron Paul! Go Mitt Romney!

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to EPGAH)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: human rights - 10/31/2007 3:24:56 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Human rights are a dream… no one has ever had them or will. In every circumstance of any action by any people or government one right or another has been abridged. If something has never happened before in history… how can it now be inviolable in anything but a dream?

(in reply to EPGAH)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: human rights - 10/31/2007 3:29:53 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		KDsub, that's why the Founding Fathers in their wisdom created the Second Amendment to the Constitution.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: human rights - 10/31/2007 3:43:51 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

KDsub, that's why the Founding Fathers in their wisdom created the Second Amendment to the Constitution.


Do you mean that if the people have weapons then they will have rights?..... could be but it has not stopped some politicians from abridging my rights and I have a bunch.

BUT let me say….does not bother me a bit… I do believe common since should and does trump some rights in some circumstances.

Butch


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: human rights - 10/31/2007 3:45:56 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkme2

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

And where are the human rights of American Citizens not to have our country invaded by illegal aliens?
Where's the fuckin' "U.N." on that?

LOL 

In the link, one of the rights was to be able to go into another country at will.  So that would "solve" our illegal issue.  LOL



....would you mind quoting that right? Because i didn't see it. i saw a right to leave and re-enter their own country at will....a right denied to the soviet bloc, way back when...but no right to enter another country. That would be up to the country concerned.
It's one thing to criticise the human rights delcaration as it is, but to make stuff up about it and attack it isn't particulary edifying.

(in reply to pinkme2)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: human rights - 10/31/2007 11:36:21 PM   
pinkme2


Posts: 236
Joined: 8/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkme2

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

And where are the human rights of American Citizens not to have our country invaded by illegal aliens?
Where's the fuckin' "U.N." on that?

LOL 

In the link, one of the rights was to be able to go into another country at will.  So that would "solve" our illegal issue.  LOL



....would you mind quoting that right? Because i didn't see it. i saw a right to leave and re-enter their own country at will....a right denied to the soviet bloc, way back when...but no right to enter another country. That would be up to the country concerned.
It's one thing to criticise the human rights delcaration as it is, but to make stuff up about it and attack it isn't particulary edifying.

No worries, I'm not making anything up. 
From Article 14:
quote:

Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.

This could easily be interpreted as being able to go to the country of their choice.  And many pro-illegal groups state that they have a "right" to immigrate (and we must accept them) because of poor conditions in their country of origin. This one is vague enough that they could easily assert such a right.

AND Article 15:
quote:

No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

If you have a right to change your Nationality, does that mean you get to choose your "new" Nationality?  I would imagine it does... Or could be presented in a court as such, correct? 

It can all depend on your (or a World court's) interpretation of these "rights".  I see them as vague enough for many to use... think of those trying to immigrate to Italy, the UK, or elsewhere in Europe.. I think they could also make a case that they faces persecution in their country of origin, and therefore should be able to leave and enter... say Germany.  Perhaps Germany doesn't want them... but we can't violate their "rights." 

This become political, and I'd rather not have politicians playing around with our National soveriegnty. 


(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: human rights - 11/1/2007 1:07:54 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkme2

quote:

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Being in a jail cell or being forced to wear orange jumpsuits could be considered degrading. 

quote:

Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

What of those that are asked to leave?  What about inmates?

quote:

Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.

Why would this be required?

quote:

Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.


This right here equals socialism.  And what does "existence worthy of human dignity" mean?  What sort of living does that entail?

What is wrong with a fair day's work for a fair day's pay? I think even Jesus would support that.

quote:

Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

More socialism.

quote:

Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

More socialism.  *sigh*

quote:

Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.

Even worse than socialism. 

quote:

Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.

Now it's just getting scary. 

There are good things and bad... but way too many "rights". 

Questions-
Enforcement?  What of biases that I spoke of earlier?  Ever notice that in terms of human rights, the US and Israel are targeted when there are far wider issues in most of the world?
 
Both countries claimed to be civilized and members of the civilized world so don't get upset when your peers expect you to live up to the standards both countries proclaim to have.


Why does it veer so far into socialism and requiring certain types of thought processes and development in education?  How can you enforce that?  In one article, you have freedom of thought and expression, in another, they discuss practically brainwashing.  Which is it?

Human rights don't via towards socialist beliefs, one could argue they via towards Christian beliefs but rightwing Christians are very good at ignoring much Christian philosophy such as treating someone like you would want to be treated. Now don't say you want to be tortured, exploited and shown the door, I won't believe you.


Hey Pink, you sound like a Republican clone. Look at your answers and then think that most people around the world think all Americans think like you and then ask yourself what that does for the image of America. Especially when you have troops in most countries where illegals come from.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to pinkme2)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: human rights - 11/1/2007 7:12:24 AM   
EPGAH


Posts: 500
Joined: 12/25/2006
Status: offline 		What is wrong with a fair day's work for a fair day's pay? I think even Jesus would support that
Actually, there's a parable in the Bible about staggered pay rates...
A man went out and looked for workers, promising one coin in exchange for working the rest of the day...He got a couple workers then...He went back out again, and offered some MORE people one coin for working the rest of the day...And again in the evening, collecting MORE workers, offering them a coin for the rest of the day...and then when there was but one hour of daylight left, he went and got MORE workers, who would work that last hour for the same rate.
He paid the ones who worked less FIRST, which made the ones who had worked the whole day extremely jealous; they thought they should get more, since they had worked more. But he had promised them each ONE coin, and that's all they got!

As to the rest, yes, Americans COULD force our way into one of the countries that send us illegals, and maybe even use the UN to get citizenship there, but they could not be forced to give us the benefits that the illegals suck off of America! You might even say with our welfare system and "free" ER care (Being used for every little complaint by the illegals and their unlimited numbers of offspring), they only come here for access to the ATM--American Taxpayers' Money!

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: human rights - 11/1/2007 9:23:57 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

Human rights are a dream… no one has ever had them or will.


Freedom is a State of Mind.

You are *exactly* as free as you are willing to enforce.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: human rights - 11/1/2007 10:02:32 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkme2

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkme2

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

And where are the human rights of American Citizens not to have our country invaded by illegal aliens?
Where's the fuckin' "U.N." on that?

LOL 

In the link, one of the rights was to be able to go into another country at will.  So that would "solve" our illegal issue.  LOL



....would you mind quoting that right? Because i didn't see it. i saw a right to leave and re-enter their own country at will....a right denied to the soviet bloc, way back when...but no right to enter another country. That would be up to the country concerned.
It's one thing to criticise the human rights delcaration as it is, but to make stuff up about it and attack it isn't particulary edifying.

No worries, I'm not making anything up. 
From Article 14:
quote:

Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.

This could easily be interpreted as being able to go to the country of their choice.  And many pro-illegal groups state that they have a "right" to immigrate (and we must accept them) because of poor conditions in their country of origin. This one is vague enough that they could easily assert such a right.

AND Article 15:
quote:

No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

If you have a right to change your Nationality, does that mean you get to choose your "new" Nationality?  I would imagine it does... Or could be presented in a court as such, correct? 

It can all depend on your (or a World court's) interpretation of these "rights".  I see them as vague enough for many to use... think of those trying to immigrate to Italy, the UK, or elsewhere in Europe.. I think they could also make a case that they faces persecution in their country of origin, and therefore should be able to leave and enter... say Germany.  Perhaps Germany doesn't want them... but we can't violate their "rights." 

This become political, and I'd rather not have politicians playing around with our National soveriegnty. 




...we shall have to agree to disagree on this.
i would interpret this part of that document
"Article 29.
    (1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
    (2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society."

    ....as preventing just such the abuse that you point out.


    It comes down to seeing what you want to see. Maybe i want to see some basic setting out of human rights.....some see any universal declaration as infringing on state rights no matter how reasonable they are.
    It comes down to, i think, a basic difference of view on the function  of a state.

(in reply to pinkme2)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: human rights - 11/1/2007 10:12:22 AM   
pinkme2


Posts: 236
Joined: 8/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


What is wrong with a fair day's work for a fair day's pay? I think even Jesus would support that.


Other than it's extremely vague.  Who decides what's fair??  And you are missing the point when you bring up Christ.  He would place the burden on the employer and they will have to answer to God for what's in their hearts.  It's impossible to substitute the state for God. 


 
quote:

Both countries claimed to be civilized and members of the civilized world so don't get upset when your peers expect you to live up to the standards both countries proclaim to have.

Except that their "peers" all have worse human right records.  And then they sit in judgement with spite and jealousy.  At least we have standards. It's as if you took someone hostile, jealous and spiteful, who was crueler and had no integrity and had them judge you for crimes that they wouldn't have thought twice of doing themselves.  Interesting sense of justice you have.


quote:

Human rights don't via towards socialist beliefs, one could argue they via towards Christian beliefs but rightwing Christians are very good at ignoring much Christian philosophy such as treating someone like you would want to be treated. Now don't say you want to be tortured, exploited and shown the door, I won't believe you.

Are you being deliberately dishonest in your argument here?  Christians believe in the internal philosophy.  Christ's teachings are meant to be voluntary, internal and heart felt.  When you have a World body enforcing brainwashing and "compassion", it's not remotely Christ-like or Christian.  And you can quit pretending that this isn't all about bashing America... otherwise you wouldn't have brought up torture.  Interesting, in that argument, no one mentions or seems to care about the torture and cruelty going in other nations.

quote:

Hey Pink, you sound like a Republican clone. Look at your answers and then think that most people around the world think all Americans think like you and then ask yourself what that does for the image of America. Especially when you have troops in most countries where illegals come from.

WTF?  First, I think for myself.  Second, I shouldn't speak my mind because... um.. why?  I believe in self sufficiency, personal (not group) responsibility and independence.  I understand that many wish for a way to rule others and reign over them, because of course, "they know best," all while getting rich and putting down "those Americans".  It's fun to be in charge in a communist or socialist world or nation.  It's easy to play off greed in others.. simply promise them someone else's riches!   Many people love America and Americans (else why would we have to worry about immigration?).  I'll repeat again for the THIRD time, MC- Are you an American?

And stay on topic.  If you wish to discuss illegals in the military, we can do so.. but let's not hijack this thread. 

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: human rights - 11/1/2007 10:14:35 AM   
pinkme2


Posts: 236
Joined: 8/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy


...we shall have to agree to disagree on this.
i would interpret this part of that document
"Article 29.
    (1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
    (2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society."

    ....as preventing just such the abuse that you point out.


    It comes down to seeing what you want to see. Maybe i want to see some basic setting out of human rights.....some see any universal declaration as infringing on state rights no matter how reasonable they are.
    It comes down to, i think, a basic difference of view on the function  of a state.


Because you are a good and just person, Philo.  If everyone in the world was like you in that respect, I don't think we'd be having this discussion.

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: human rights - 11/1/2007 10:16:47 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkme2

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy


...we shall have to agree to disagree on this.
i would interpret this part of that document
"Article 29.
    (1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
    (2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society."

    ....as preventing just such the abuse that you point out.


    It comes down to seeing what you want to see. Maybe i want to see some basic setting out of human rights.....some see any universal declaration as infringing on state rights no matter how reasonable they are.
    It comes down to, i think, a basic difference of view on the function  of a state.



Because you are a good and just person, Philo.  If everyone in the world was like you in that respect, I don't think we'd be having this discussion.



..perhaps we need a new thread. Why are people not just?

(in reply to pinkme2)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: human rights - 11/1/2007 10:20:55 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		And some of us don't agree with anything the corrupt "U.N." has to say much less allowing it to overide our own laws.
They can make all the "declarations" they want they still don't have the ability to interfere in any country's laws.
Phil, how they doing on locating that $22-$24B that's "missing" in the "Oil for Food" scandal?
Making any progress are they?

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 40
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