RE: Adult enough to discuss it!!

RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! (Full Version)

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missturbation -> RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! (11/2/2007 5:08:33 PM)
To epgah and seeks, I have repeatedly asked you to back your so called factual statements up and you have been unable to, so i will take them in the only form i then can, as your opinions only. Neither of you has even attempted to answer the questions in my original post and unless you wish to discuss them i think we are just going to have to agree to disagree. Interesting though epgah how you backed down to me and then seeks makes a statement similar to yours and you jump back on his band wagon. Have you no back bone to stand alone with your convictions when the going gets tough?

EPGAH -> RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! (11/2/2007 5:15:07 PM)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/minette_marrin/article2511938.ece http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article2641490.ece I would think one of these 2--admittedly linked FROM the one you posted--come closer to proving Seeks and myself correct...Particularly the first one, where anyone against immigration is instantly a Nazi! Of course, the people on THIS forum would never be so closed-minded as to think controlling one's borders is hateful or discriminatory, right? [;)] I don't know WHERE you got the idea that I "backed off"--I DID rebut your idea that foreigns are somehow IMMEDIATELY "entitled" to help with housing or medical. It's not compassionate, but the world's not fair, no reason to punish people of a successful nation to reward the invaders...Or put another way, noone helped me with my housing or medical costs--and I'm an American! Why should Americans be considered "obligated" to support foreign freeloaders? Alternately, try getting a new job, and then IMMEDIATELY demand medical leave...I bet you'll be dismissed quickly! You need to put IN to the "favor bank" before you start drawing out! And people who just got here haven't done anything for us yet, so why help them?

missturbation -> RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! (11/2/2007 5:27:45 PM)
quote: THIS forum would never be so closed-minded as to think controlling one's borders is hateful or discriminatory, right? Actually i do think you are coming across very hateful and discriminatory. You are also putting one label on a whole group of people who just like anyone has good and bad. quote: to reward the invaders Immigrants legally in your country are not invaders. They ar people YOUR government has let in. quote: Or put another way, noone helped me with my housing or medical costs-- Oh i see, now we are getting somewhere. You recieved no help, so why should anyone else? How selfish!! Their need may be greater than yours. quote: Alternately, try getting a new job, and then IMMEDIATELY demand medical leave... Again where are you getting these wild accusations and assumptions from? Oh and i actually have done that and funnily enough i still work at the place i did it.

EPGAH -> RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! (11/2/2007 5:39:05 PM)
Who decides whose "need" is greater? Let's say I need money...I can either work more hours, or rob someone, say a bank and a convenience-store, and just tell them my "need" of that money is greater. Somehow, I don't think that would fly! Your boss was excessively generous...My own boss would say something along the lines of, "I could give a fuck about your 'needs', this is my game, my time and my way! If you don't like it, fuck the hell off because you can be replaced as easily as I found you!" And you know? Thanks to the unlimited supply of "talented" immigrants, he probably really can find other computer-repairmen...and might even do that ironic punishment thing of having me train my replacement! Isn't it wonderful how unlimited immigration makes labor expendable? Since I was in America first, shouldn't I have primacy/seniority?

philosophy -> RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! (11/2/2007 5:41:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EPGAH Since I was in America first, shouldn't I have primacy/seniority? ...no...since you decry the fact that the people who were in America first get priviliges you don't enjoy.

EPGAH -> RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! (11/2/2007 5:47:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: EPGAH Since I was in America first, shouldn't I have primacy/seniority? ...no...since you decry the fact that the people who were in America first get priviliges you don't enjoy. No, you have that exactly backwards: I explicitly stated Americans should get some sort of primacy/seniority/"loyalty" bonus... As opposed to, say, just handing over all our money, jobs, technology, etc. to foreigns who have proven QUITE ungrateful! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11442705/

astarri -> RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! (11/2/2007 5:49:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EPGAH Since I was in America first, shouldn't I have primacy/seniority? oh how silly of me. I didn't realize that you were a native american. Your flesh just looks so european. You are an immigrant. You may be a third or fourth and whatever generation, but your heritage is not from north america.

philosophy -> RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! (11/2/2007 5:53:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EPGAH quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: EPGAH Since I was in America first, shouldn't I have primacy/seniority? ...no...since you decry the fact that the people who were in America first get priviliges you don't enjoy. No, you have that exactly backwards: I explicitly stated Americans should get some sort of primacy/seniority/"loyalty" bonus... As opposed to, say, just handing over all our money, jobs, technology, etc. to foreigns who have proven QUITE ungrateful! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11442705/ ...i was referring to native Americans, as opposed to the families of immigrants.

EPGAH -> RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! (11/2/2007 5:59:07 PM)
No, I am a legitimate citizen of the American government...Which bought this area, either in money or blood...sometimes both... Oh, I'm sorry! Do you take old land claims that seriously? Should Italy get back pretty much all of Europe, you know, the good ol' Roman Empire? Or should Germany, since they conquered it in World War II? (Until America "helped them realize" they should give it back...Oh, wait, that was imperialist of us, wasn't it? Should we have looked the other way as Hitler's war-machine stomped around, and only punished Japan, our direct enemy?) I would say you could deed your land to them if you feel that strongly about it, except that you're in Canada...Wait, wasn't that in Indian land too? Do you set aside land--TAX-FREE--for them to live as they choose? (And laugh when they choose your high-tech comfort over the "moral high-ground" of the ancient Noble Savage ways...strange, isn't it?[;)])

astarri -> RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! (11/2/2007 6:01:03 PM)
to reply to the original post (sorry missturbation) I am unsure of anywhere else in the world but i have studies social classes in canada and if social status means anything, there is a definite correlation to heritage and social class. (John Porter's The Vertical Mosaic) English and French heritage are the highest ranked social class followed by other "white" european countires (germany, holland ect.) then the visible minority group and lastly and this is what i have found the most ironic .. at the very bottom is the native canadians. Immigrants are currently encouraged in canada because we have a surplus of jobs that can not be filled by the population. I do not believe all immigrants are a strain on a countries resources and in fact can be most beneficial.

astarri -> RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! (11/2/2007 6:05:44 PM)
Actually the whole world has changed. Native Canadian do have land rights. The Canadian government actually gave the province of Nunavit to the first Nation and oil rights have been given to some for years. My point is that you are indeed an immigrant too ...as am i. This is my country and it is not a melting pot of nations as is the United States. People celebrate their heritage freely here. Within guidlines of the actual law, there is not a NEED to assimilate although most end up doing just that. The world isnt as black and white as you make it sound thank goodness.

EPGAH -> RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! (11/2/2007 6:45:24 PM)
No, there is no LEGAL need to assimilate, but it used to be, "If you can't learn English, tough! You'll be a menial serf the rest of your lifespan! There's no future in your old language/culture, you might as well adopt ours...If you don't like it, go home!" Now it's, "Aww, you poor idiot foreigner! Let us translate all this paperwork--even official documents--for you...At our expense! And while we're at it, here's free medical care, and food and even consumer goods and high-priced electronics translated to YOUR language (which you won't need, since you came here to work, right? [;)]) Even TV shows will be in your home language! Anything else we can do to make your stay more comfortable, and make you feel more validated about the culture that was so...'less-useful'...you had to come here? Don't worry about displacing or discomforting the Americans, they'll have to make do with YOUR scraps, even though THEY were here first!" As to oil-rights, companies are so upset about about having to follow environmental rules, they'd rather depend on hostile countries than obey them! Are foreigners truly so arrogant that they'd rather starve than buy food with English labels? Speaking of land-rights, though, who "owns" the Arctic/Antarctic masses? If they keep melting, though, you might have a commercially-viable "canal"--that Northwest Passage EVERYONE has always wanted![;)]

DMFParadox -> RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! (11/2/2007 8:07:16 PM)
:pokes Epgah: insert some epgah bait here. Any statement supporting illegal immigrants... or legal immigrants... or multiculturalism... Ooh, wait, my brain just kicked in. Did you realize that it's our vast variety of immigration that's made American cultural imperialism possible? Y'see, unless you count the Irrawkwa culture, just about everything about us has been borrowed and developed from somewhere else. The ever-so-useful (Which it actually is) American culture is a world brand these days not just because of our insanely overwhelming economy--even now about three times as potent as the next nearest--but because our culture is RELEVANT to just about anywhere. Tibetans? We've got those. Mexicans? Sure, we can make better tortillas than you can. Italians? Stuck in 40's film noir... but lapping up our culture nonetheless. France? Oh god, they so hate the fact that McDonald's is taking over their cities. Yet they invented or made their stamp on the original versions of half the ingredients, like mayo, white bread... and possibly pickles, depending on which authority you ask... British? Goes without saying. Japanese? Work for a major company these days, you'll feel their influence. Chinese, indian, african, south american, come one, come all. We are your promised land. We do it better, faster, and with more style. But we do it because we, through an egregious loophole, took in your children and made them our own. Bite that, Epgah. You know what? My ancestors go straight back to the Mayflower. I'm as American as any white boy can be. If I have a daughter, she can join the Daughters of the Revolution, if you even know who those people are, you zealot. I've got Grant, Daniel Webster, and the captain of the boat Davy Jones sailed on in my woodpile. If anyone has the right to feel territorial, it's... an American Indian. But then it's me. And I say that I have numerous friends that are or are descended from illegals, and they are much more useful people than my fellow natives are. I'd rather kick idiots like you out and keep them, if I had to choose. Then again, I'd like even more to keep both you and them here and let you battle it out in the wage earner wars. This is the wellspring of the power of America; that you, however much you hate the idea, are forced to adapt and conquer in changing circumstances. And you are not restricted in your freedom to do so. (At least, if I had my way you wouldn't be restricted. I'm as Libertarian as they come.) To the OP: Apologies for hijacking the thread yet again. I, um, have no idea how badly immigrants are being mistreated in Britain. Except for what I've read here. Sounds like it might make for an interesting conversation.

EPGAH -> RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! (11/2/2007 8:37:57 PM)
Well, as to housing or any other resource, NO country is infinite, and the more people, the less each one gets. Heck, there are already mathematicians claiming that if everyone lived at the standards of America, you'd need FIVE Earths...The alternative is, of course, everyone in America give up their luxuries, their backyards, etc., to make room for ever-increasing population...Other countries see America as "land that hasn't been fully used up"--and they want to "help" us use it up and/or fill it up! I consider this a bad thing--Don't you? As to the other, why shouldn't America have standards for who we let in and who we keep out? Why is THAT a bad thing? Everyone from department-stores to colleges to nightclubs gets to set standards for who gets in and who stays out...why not the nation? Or is our right to sovereignty based on how much we're willing to enforce it? Paradox, I think you misconstrued it: We are strong because we take in the BEST of other countries and make them ours, not because we take in the rejects of other countries and make America theirs!

DomMeinCT -> RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! (11/2/2007 9:26:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DMFParadox I'd rather kick idiots like you out and keep them, if I had to choose. Hey, I already suggested that a few pages ago! laughs I want him to keep posting, actually. It diminishes his chances of meeting anyone here and - his words - breeding more of him.

thompsonx -> RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! (11/2/2007 11:39:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomMeinCT quote: ORIGINAL: DMFParadox I'd rather kick idiots like you out and keep them, if I had to choose. Hey, I already suggested that a few pages ago! laughs I want him to keep posting, actually. It diminishes his chances of meeting anyone here and - his words - breeding more of him. ROFLMFAO

seeksfemslave -> RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! (11/3/2007 3:09:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation The "right" means with regard to numbers entering the UK I was sent this in private mail. Apparently it proves seeks "right" quote: An interesting point is the comment made by someone in the piece:- my summary: it claims that immigrants may start up business which will benefit the UK. Missturbation: if you believe that opening shops selling Polish sausages or providing Afro haicuts, both of which exist quite close to where I live, will have much effect on the UK economy you are mistaken IMO. Then you must contrast this with the so far millions who have "come in" who will not start businesses and in sum will be a drain in the taxpayer. Childbirth, School places, Social support when seasonal employment closes down. Health costs, Policing costs when different immigrant groups start fighting one another. I hope you know that has happened lol Legal costs to investigate "illegals". The vast army of people employed by local councils to look after the interests of immigrants. eg stress councillor for Asian woman. You sound as tho' you are a compassionate person but it wont do. The level of immigration into the UK is unsustainable when viewed on simple economic grounds. You have been taken for a ride by "do gooders" and "employer class" apologists. Discrimination is an element in many who oppose immigration but it is not necessary. Massive levels of immigration that have occured can be opposed by simple logical arguments. By the the way, the ghettoes that are the source of so many problems are building up quite nicely thank you Cya. adding: Last year I bought some carpet tiles. The assistant who served me was Polish. Was he taking a job from a Brit. Well.....was he ?

seeksfemslave -> RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! (11/3/2007 3:42:08 AM)
Just had to post this. Nov 3rd Daily Telegraph page 20 550000 Romanians have entered Italy since 2002, many living in Tents. Mayor of Rome says 75% of crime in the capital carried out by Romanians. Now the punch line Petty crime in Romania has dropped he he he he he he he I'm bad I am lol

LadyEllen -> RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! (11/3/2007 5:04:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Just had to post this. Nov 3rd Daily Telegraph page 20 550000 Romanians have entered Italy since 2002, many living in Tents. Mayor of Rome says 75% of crime in the capital carried out by Romanians. Now the punch line Petty crime in Romania has dropped he he he he he he he I'm bad I am lol The young Italian lady I employed a few years ago told me that Italy was the favourite destination of Romanian gypsies (though 550,000 cant be gypsies 'cause there aint that many of 'em) - apparently, alongside the language similarities (Romanian being descended from Latin too), there is some royal declaration still in place in Italy that exempts gypsies from prosecution. I should have though the Mayor of Roma might have "connections" extra to the legal system, whereby his problem might be countered however. Better one's own gangsters surely? E

philosophy -> RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! (11/3/2007 11:31:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EPGAH No, I am a legitimate citizen of the American government...Which bought this area, either in money or blood...sometimes both... ....and on occasion by treachery....... quote: Oh, I'm sorry! Do you take old land claims that seriously? Should Italy get back pretty much all of Europe, you know, the good ol' Roman Empire? Or should Germany, since they conquered it in World War II? (Until America "helped them realize" they should give it back...Oh, wait, that was imperialist of us, wasn't it? Should we have looked the other way as Hitler's war-machine stomped around, and only punished Japan, our direct enemy?) ...think you may want to actually study a bit of European history before commenting on it. quote: I would say you could deed your land to them if you feel that strongly about it, except that you're in Canada...Wait, wasn't that in Indian land too? ...and parts of it still are. There are problems, but avenues of communication are open with a view to solving it. quote: Do you set aside land--TAX-FREE--for them to live as they choose? .....not ours to set aside. You have that ass-backwards. It's not a question of them being given anything, it's a question of them retaining something. quote: (And laugh when they choose your high-tech comfort over the "moral high-ground" of the ancient Noble Savage ways...strange, isn't it?[;)]) ...nope....admire them when they find a new way to synthesise both cultures. Which, at least round here, is the norm.

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