Relationship question (Full Version)

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LilyOR -> Relationship question (8/3/2005 3:36:34 PM)

Hi.

I recently ended a wonderful, loving relationship with a man whom I adore because after a full year of being very close and very together, he told me "I'm not in love with you". He is submissive to me, but that dynamic was a fairly new part of the relationship and only began a few months before the breakup. I felt like I deserved at least that after pouring my love into him for a year. He was easily able to tell me that "he had strong feelings of love for me", but I felt that was too much of a qualifier.

He is 42, I am 36. We both have the same long term goals. Compatability, chemistry were there strongly between us. The breakup involved tears and sadness for both of us.

He told me that he hasn't been in love since his mid 20's, and he has major committment phobias.

Now, it's been a couple months and he's starting to show signs of "I miss you, I want you, and I made a mistake". He still can't say "I'm in love with you". I told him it's like a dull knife...it just doesn't cut it.

I love this man still, but have been very strong about not "dwelling". I don't call, etc...but am always very nice when he does. He's wanting to see me more, and I feel as though I need to maintain distance, and plan to. I'm "moving on" as best I can through such behavior.

My question to all of you is this. Are any of you (or have you ever been) in successful relationships with a person who at one time had these extreme indecision/committment/love fears? How did it turn out?

I really want to do right by myself. But if he comes to me in a month or two, after some counseling or soul searching, and says "god I really AM in love with you", is it extremely unhealthy for me to carefully, slowly consider and take some time with it? My mother says "no way run!". My close friend who is a clinical psychologist says it's possible to be with him again if he doesn some work and can express his feelings to me. I know that people can "come around" when they discover what they've lost is much more valuable to them than they realized when they were in it, and if there was a real, healthy chance with him...I'd take it.

Thanks ahead of time for comments,

Lil






Kinkypupper -> RE: Relationship question (8/3/2005 3:46:49 PM)

I know of people this has occured to.
It has in some definition happened to me on one side or the other.

Females tend to "bond" with a Dom and that is natural and ok. It even happens in a vanilla based relationship.
The problem tho is there are many Dom types who do not seek anykind of emotional bonding at all.
They hide it with contracts and such. and as part of their personna in that they do not allow themselves to feel.

This is often caused by a history of hurt.

Can you recover from it YES. Will you want to no. Will you want him to come back to you and confess his weakness YES but even if that is the case his "DOM" part of him may not allow that.

Do you need to accept this and move on YES. The hurt will fade with time and with a new relationship.
We all live on hope that we can find "the one" and when we do and find its not mutual it does hurt.



darkinshadows -> RE: Relationship question (8/3/2005 3:51:59 PM)

Lily.

It happened to my relationship. And I have been with Demon now for over 17 yrs, 15 married.

Peace and Love



darkinshadows -> RE: Relationship question (8/3/2005 3:56:00 PM)

I might be wrong, KinkyP - but if you read what Lily said in her post and her profile - she is a switch, but in this relationship he is more submissive to Her, than dominant. That may alter your perception and your advice.

Peace and Love



FangsNfeet -> RE: Relationship question (8/3/2005 3:59:05 PM)

Some people want love and others want what "Just Works"

My dad has been married atleast 4 1/2 times. The woman that he's living with has been married 2 times. They never married each other but have lived together for longer than either of there marriages lasted. Some how they think that marriage will ruin there relationship and go on the "If it ain't broke then don't fix it" theory. Others find the same about love. Some people have a bad history of getting dumped right after they fell in love. They still want to be in relationships but want to keep themselves from jumping the gun and start thinking of all the wonderful thoughts in the future just to have them squashed the next day.

I was in a relationship now and then where the sex was GREAT, the food as AWSOME, and the expierinces we shared are unforgetable. Love wansn't there. I like having LOVE myself. Because of what I wanted, we ended up becoming friends with bennifits instead of living together which she offered. So with out love, my relations with others have slowly drifted away. But I have seen many relationships make it without love and they stayed very happy together.

Maybe he wants love, and maybe he dosen't. But that dosen't mean that happiness can't be there. Either way, it's best for you to go by your own instincts on this one. Best of luck in finding what you want.



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Relationship question (8/3/2005 4:08:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LilyOR
"I'm not in love with you". He is submissive to me, but that dynamic was a fairly new part of the relationship and only began a few months before the breakup. I felt like I deserved at least that after pouring my love into him for a year. He was easily able to tell me that "he had strong feelings of love for me", but I felt that was too much of a qualifier.

I agree that "I have strong feelings" is not the same as I love you, and to me an indicator of his discomfort with the word "love."
Wondering why the relationship ended though.... Was he acting in loving ways, did he treat you lovingly, with respect, care and consideration?

quote:

He is 42, I am 36. We both have the same long term goals. Compatability, chemistry were there strongly between us.
Than why break up if you're getting what you want, and are headed in the same direction?
quote:

Now, it's been a couple months and he's starting to show signs of "I miss you, I want you, and I made a mistake". He still can't say "I'm in love with you". I told him it's like a dull knife...it just doesn't cut it.

I love this man still, but have been very strong about not "dwelling". I don't call, etc...but am always very nice when he does. He's wanting to see me more, and I feel as though I need to maintain distance, and plan to.
It's normal for him to miss you, and for you to miss him if you love him, but if you trully want to move on, I'd ask him to stop calling and checking on you because it only increases the hurt and confusion (in my opinion).
quote:

My question to all of you is this. Are any of you (or have you ever been) in successful relationships with a person who at one time had these extreme indecision/committment/love fears? How did it turn out?
I feel like picking up a handkerchief and coming over to cry with you... I've definitely fallen for men who need time, understanding and loving guidance to fix themselves, blase, blah... A habit I will no longer indulge for me (and whatever psycho need I have to be needed) or anyone else.

quote:

But if he comes to me in a month or two, after some counseling or soul searching, and says "god I really AM in love with you", is it extremely unhealthy for me to carefully, slowly consider and take some time with it? My mother says "no way run!". My close friend who is a clinical psychologist says it's possible to be with him again if he doesn some work and can express his feelings to me. I know that people can "come around" when they discover what they've lost is much more valuable to them than they realized when they were in it, and if there was a real, healthy chance with him...I'd take it.
Lil
I do believe what the psychologist says, that it is possible to work through one's demons and make a decision to do the right thing by the one's we love. If you trust and love him that much, than I'd invest the time and wait to see what happens.
On the other hand (and my experience) says your mom is probably right that you should run and never look back. My feeling is that you broke it off because you were not getting what you want or need, and given that, going back before some serious evaluating/behavior modificatio (on both of your parts) would likely lead you to the same place you are now=hurt, and single again.
Good luck, hope things work out okay for you soon. M



sanita -> RE: Relationship question (8/3/2005 4:24:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LilyOR

My question to all of you is this. Are any of you (or have you ever been) in successful relationships with a person who at one time had these extreme indecision/committment/love fears? How did it turn out?


*whoof*

yes, i am. it is the Man who is now my Master, and who is my future. not to go into too many details, but He figured out He did love me, and that i was the one He wanted to build a life with...

...by that time, i was involved with another. how did i handle it? well, we remained friends, and kept in contact. i worried that He only wanted me because He could not have me. as best i could, i did not let His revelations affect what i had with the other... and i finally figured out that while i loved the other, i was not happy, and did not feel passionately loved by Him.

my grandfather passed. the last word on his lips was my grandmother's name. that's what i wanted. a future, and the love of my life. i figured out that Master is the love of my life. from the night i called Him and told Him i was His, there has been no doubt.

all this took years.

so to answer your question, yes, i am. i don't know how to tell that his regret and desire to reconcile is sincere. but maybe, if you can ask yourself if you can bear it if he leaves you again, and then ask yourself if trying to make the dream a reality is worth it, maybe you can know what you want to do.



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Relationship question (8/3/2005 4:38:08 PM)

Sure he MIGHT find love with you in the future.

But you KNOW he doesn't now and it was enough to end the relationship.

Do relationships work without love? Absolutely.

But there was a reason you ended the relationship in the first place, and I haven't seen that reason changing.

I'd say move on for awhile, see what else is out there. If you come back to eachother and decide things are happy enough, that's fine.



LilyOR -> RE: Relationship question (8/3/2005 4:39:28 PM)

Hi everyone, and thanks for all your thoghtful, kind, supportive words.

It was really hard for me to stand my ground while I watched him cry last Saturday when nhe came to see me and hang out. He sat there tearfully and said "I think maybe we could work out together" and "I miss us together" and "I don't think I'll be able to meet anyone like you".

But when he also said "I'm confused"...it helped me be strong. I'll have real interest in him when (and if) he's no longer confused about how he feels about me. I'm not at all confused about how I feel about him, and need him to reciprocate. I know he wants to feel "in love".

It doesn't help that we're extremely turned on by the other, and he flirts in such a pretty way. Still...all he gets is an occasional hug now.

It could be so good...the fool.



Padriag -> RE: Relationship question (8/3/2005 5:20:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LilyOR

Hi.

I recently ended a wonderful, loving relationship with a man whom I adore

First things first, my condolences, breaking up with someone you care for always hurts.

quote:

He is 42, I am 36. We both have the same long term goals. Compatability, chemistry were there strongly between us. The breakup involved tears and sadness for both of us.

Alright so from your remarks so far it sounds like you had high expectations for this relationship. That is, you saw it as something that could last long term and provide you with a lot of happiness. There's nothing wrong with that, its healthy to want a relationship that is fulfilling. What I would like you to keep in mind is simply this, these were your expectations for the relationship, they were not his, and that's the rub.

quote:

He told me that he hasn't been in love since his mid 20's, and he has major committment phobias.

Take that at face value, it sounds like he's being honest with you. He does need counseling for this. Something happened in his mid 20's that hurt him deeply enough he is no longer willing to risk opening up to someone else. As long as he does not allow himself to love others, then he can't be hurt, he's emotionally invulnerable. Its a defense born of fear. There may have been several other incidents prior to that, but the key event happened in his 20s and I would bet he knows exactly what it was. But don't you take any of it personally, his refusal to love has nothing to do with you, this is something from his past.

quote:

Now, it's been a couple months and he's starting to show signs of "I miss you, I want you, and I made a mistake". He still can't say "I'm in love with you". I told him it's like a dull knife...it just doesn't cut it.

I don't know him and I only have what you've written here to go on, so take this with a grain of salt. But, based on that my intuition is that he does care for you and may even love you but is deeply surpressing it. Love is natural to a healthy human being, its normal for us to love, but we can surpress our ability to do so as he has done. We also all have a fight or flight response when confronted with something we fear... he fled so that tells me he was confronted with his fear of love. That could be because he realise you loved him and that was enough to trigger it or it could be because he was beginning to feel love towards you and that was the trigger. It would take a counselor or psychologist working with him directly to sort that out.

quote:

I really want to do right by myself. But if he comes to me in a month or two, after some counseling or soul searching, and says "god I really AM in love with you", is it extremely unhealthy for me to carefully, slowly consider and take some time with it? My mother says "no way run!". My close friend who is a clinical psychologist says it's possible to be with him again if he doesn some work and can express his feelings to me. I know that people can "come around" when they discover what they've lost is much more valuable to them than they realized when they were in it, and if there was a real, healthy chance with him...I'd take it.

You need to consider several things very carefully.

  • First, understand that you cannot fix him, and he will need the help of a trained counselor or psychologist to fix himself. All you can do is offer support and encouragement.
  • Second, you need to look within yourself and ask if you have the emotional strength to offer him that support. It will be draining and difficult and at times incredibly frustrationg, are you ready to cope with that?
  • Third, he can only do this if he seeks help, if he refuses to do that then you need to accept this relationship will not work the way you had hoped and you need to walk away.
  • Fourth, accept that his inability to say "I love you" is not your fault and has nothing to do with you, there's nothing wrong with you, this is a problem deep within him.
  • Fifth, if you can't handle it... or try and later can't... you need to walk away. If you choose to try, be clear with him about this and make it clear that you may have to walk away if it gets too painful for you.
  • Sixth, don't run... if you have to walk away that's fine... but don't run. Running will leave you with guilt and feeling like you abandoned him and then somebody like me will end up having to counsel with you [;)] If you things get too painful, too much for you to handle, tell him that and be honest and then walk away. That way you walk away clean knowing you tried your best and thats all anyone could have asked of you.


Is it possible he can get past this, yes it is. He's going to have to seek professional help and its going to open up some old wounds that are going to be very painful for him for awhile. His emotions will likely be a rollercoaster during that time, with him being unpredictable and moody. As he progresses he'll likely close off and push everyone away (you included) and at other times profess his undying love for you and just about everything in between. He's got more than 20 years of history and surpressed feelings to deal with, that's going to take time. To get through that you're going to need to be braced for it, learn not to take any of it personally (even when he's singing you love songs), and remain a stable constant in his life... that's very demanding. But if he is willing to finally face it and deal with it and seeks the help of a professional, yes it is possible for him to get past this and learn to have a loving relationship.

quote:

My question to all of you is this. Are any of you (or have you ever been) in successful relationships with a person who at one time had these extreme indecision/committment/love fears? How did it turn out?

Yes I have, some coped with it and were able to heal with help, others were not. Some refused help. What I can tell you from personal experience is that you cannot help anyone who doesn't want the help. Some chose to cling to their walls rather than take the chance of opening up... for them the risk is just too great. In those cases all you can do is offer them friendship, and even that takes strength because these people can sometimes be very hard to be friends with. You have to be willing to care about them and wrap that friendship around them... walls and all.

I wish you luck with whatever choice you make, think carefully about it and be honest with yourself. You are not obligated to do anything at this point, and if you need to walk away there is no shame in that if you do it honestly.



perfection20005 -> RE: Relationship question (8/3/2005 5:34:30 PM)

I agree with Emerald on this. Give it some time, meet new people, who knows what may happen. Sometimes "love" is never there, but there is something that keeps it together. If you think you can be happy without him ever saying it, then it may be worth the effort to get back together.



edana -> RE: Relationship question (8/3/2005 6:38:00 PM)

Actually posted by Leonidas, who didn't notice he was logged in as one of his slaves

Could be all that you need to do is listen to him. Hasn't been "in love" since his mid 20s? So the hell what, says I. Fact is that mature men don't generally love like a woman loves. We're just not wired the same way. Yes, boys and immature men have "crushes" emotions commonly labeled "love" much like girls and women do, but as a man matures (if he matures, some don't). They tend to feel, and express, a different set of emotions and drives toward the women in their lives. They develop the drives to provide and protect.

Many men walk around confused, like it sounds like this man is, because they think they're supposed to be "in love" in the same sense that a woman falls "in love". They remember what that's like (from when they were boys) and wonder why they don't anymore, because everyone knows that's how they're "supposed" to feel. They don't feel that way, and rather than saying "well, I don't feel that way because I'm not a woman, or an emotionally immature boy", they think there is something wrong with them, or the relationship that they are in. Suprising as it may sound, boys and girls are not the same. A man doesn't have the same emotional need as a woman. If more men learned that it's alright not to, they'd be happier.



MstrHellsFury -> RE: Relationship question (8/3/2005 7:19:58 PM)

since you simply asked the question ..have any of us been in that kind of situation with a person with such indecision issues..I won't dispense any advise or other babble to you..I'll just answer your question...in a word YES...at a time when the earth was still nothing but dust and rubble I was thinking about having someone who didn't profess the kind of loving feeling as I felt.. say they needed a break from the relationship because it was more than they could handle...just as with you..I let time pass...all the while hoping beyond hope she would return...funny thing happened on the way to the circus...my feelings began to change...when she did come back saying basicly the same thing...I'll be with you but I'm still not sure about loving you...I realized there was so much more I'd done and seen without her...I let her know my feelings about her had changed..that's when there was an all out assult to get me...I knew then it was only because she didn't have me anymore...I stood my ground and little by little weaned her from my system...did it hurt...YES...seeing her again and knowing she wanted me in a way I could accept was an ego boost..but knowing more about what I wanted made it hurt less and less each day....I believe that's an answer to the question you posed...

Fury



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Relationship question (8/3/2005 8:12:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: edana
Suprising as it may sound, boys and girls are not the same. A man doesn't have the same emotional need as a woman. If more men learned that it's alright not to, they'd be happier.

I would tend to agree with it IF they had not already agreed that it was a serious enough of an issue to end the relationship over. How often does it work when people "try it again"? WANTING to try again is not enough, you will just end up with the same mess you had before. So unless things actually change, for the better, on BOTH sides, I'd say it's better to just move on.



Leonidas -> RE: Relationship question (8/3/2005 9:20:50 PM)

quote:

I would tend to agree with it IF they had not already agreed that it was a serious enough of an issue to end the relationship over. How often does it work when people "try it again"? WANTING to try again is not enough, you will just end up with the same mess you had before.


If I read right, he decided to break it off because he wasn't having an emotion that hasn't had in what? At least 15 years? Either he wants to feel like a pup again, which very well may never happen with anybody, or, perhaps, he was using a lame-ass reason to excuse himself because he thought he might do better.

I was giving him the benefit of the doubt; saying that, perhaps, he needed to realize that he's a bit more emotionally mature than he was as a pup and re-examine what it means to love as a mature man. That was before I read further down the thread. My opinion now is that he's probably just a weak-suck whiney-ass loser who just needs his mommy. I agree with you. She's probably better off not standing in for mommy.



GentleLady -> RE: Relationship question (8/3/2005 9:50:28 PM)

quote:

My question to all of you is this. Are any of you (or have you ever been) in successful relationships with a person who at one time had these extreme indecision/committment/love fears? How did it turn out?

The clinical psychologist is right that it it is possible. It is also difficult and not common though. That being said, My own story follows.

I started a relationship with a man who was afraid of commitment. He warned Me right at the start that this would not last. We were both in our early 40s and the longest relationship he had had lasted several months. However, he cared deeply for Me and we got along well. At the start he could barely tolerate Me spending the night. I let him call the shots as to how often and how long so that his comfort level was maintained. At one point he bailed on the relationship. As he put it the running shoes came on. I was deeply hurt. It took no time at all before he was back and apologising. He had discovered that the hole left in his life was worse then the fear of staying. He did warn Me that the running shoes might appear again but he wanted to try.

Months passed and then years. We progressed from one night per week to a whole week and even then it was Me who insisted on going home. After 10 years he proposed marriage. I refused (personal reasons but partly because I had understood at the start of the relationship that marriage would NOT be a goal or an issue).

Gentle Lady



teaweed -> RE: Relationship question (8/3/2005 10:33:06 PM)

My heart aches when I read your story, because I have had a similar experience. The conclusion I finally came to was that how I felt about him, the way we clicked, and the way he felt about me didn't matter in the end. As good as it was in my situation, it still wasn't working, and that was the bottom line.

I think you're going to be okay. You're asking questions about what you need and what youre getting instead of being sidetracked by fantasy questions about what may happen in the future. Is the relationship good enough now? If not, then don't invest more in it than you can afford to lose.

It sounds crass, but it's still true: Love is a gamble, and there are a lot of fish in the sea. Bet on good odds if you want to win. Bet on long shots if excitement is as essential as winning.

I'm in awe of the people here who've talked about living successfully with uncertainty for a length of time. I don't know how you do it, 'cause I can't, but I admire you.



nenakajira -> RE: Relationship question (8/4/2005 11:50:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LilyOR

My question to all of you is this. Are any of you (or have you ever been) in successful relationships with a person who at one time had these extreme indecision/committment/love fears? How did it turn out?




First, yes, I started out this way with my owner. He was not looking for love and did not want to find it. I loved him, however, and I persevered.

The fact is... that men view love differently than women do.. and thats just something that you either come to accept or you dont. But if the rest of the relationship was good.. is love really necessary? If he misses you/wants you/cares deeply for you.. do you really need the word "love" to be happy? Love comes in many forms after all.



LilyOR -> RE: Relationship question (8/4/2005 12:15:06 PM)

Since I asked you all about this, I thought it only fair to post an update.

He and I spoke last night. He told me that he had practical concerns about being with me long term that he *thought might possibly* be causing him to keep an emotional distance. We live 1.5 hours apart from each other, and I am in medical school for 3 more years. It means a semi-partial long distance thing, though I could be there every week and summers. He also has concerns about when we have kids, with my needing to also practice medicine, at least part time. I told him that thousands of women do it everyday by working part time for periods of time.

I feel as though this is borderline emotional blackmail ("I think I can love you IF you can prove to me that the logistics can work"). I feel he should have his concerns, but that they shouldn't preclude him from his emotions. But I've gotta give him credit for admitting that it might affect his feelings. He's agreed to seek counseling too.

Will a man without feelings for me even come close to discussing what our children would look like?

Confused,

L



ShiftedJewel -> RE: Relationship question (8/4/2005 1:10:27 PM)

I'm going to answer from the other side of the coin. I've been where your ex is. Being involved with someone you simply don't feel that "love" for, never had and most likely never would... did it for to many years. When the relationship ended (and God only knows how much I wanted it to end but hung in there out of some misplace sense of loyalty or some other insane reasoning) I was thrilled!! Absolutely!! After a few months though, I wanted him back. Why? Because I was lonely. I didn't miss him, I missed the relationship, the idea of having someone there to watch tv with, or to talk to over dinner. Luckily I recognized that about myself and didn't pursue it. It had nothing to do with love.... my advice... move on. There is real love out there. No one should settle for just having someone to watch tv with or eat meals with, life is to short to sit counting pennies.

Jewel



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