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Struggle and take down - 11/3/2007 10:40:17 PM   
Statepalace


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Questions on struggle and take down –

How do I get more fully into the mindset of fighting Him, when I have this screaming urge to “cooperate and do what the nice man tells me”?

A little background – I’ve been seeing a wonderful Dom for the last five months. First D/s relationship. I’m happy. If life were any sweeter I might need insulin. Communication is good, and we have talked about this. He had suggested that I get the perspective of other subs, so here we go.

I am fine with showing Him the internal struggle that may occur when He tells me to do something. That has never been an issue. We have worked up to the point where I am ok struggling while tied, but without Him holding me down. Five months ago when He first told me to do that I looked at Him in absolute confusion, because fighting Him was the LAST thing on my mind. Little did I know how hot it could be.

Like I mentioned, that screaming need to “do what the nice man says” seems to clash dramatically with the idea of resisting Him. It used to give me a “Does not compute” kind of error message, as I felt that fighting Him was the opposite of doing what He said. Except that He says “Fight me”, and I know resisting Him IS doing what he says. I do it, it just feels awkward.

Last time we played there was actual “hands on” struggling, and WOW, incredibly hot. However, I still felt a huge level of that awkwardness about fighting Him. Being “taken down” plays a large role in my fantasy life, and I have actually fought men (in a judo class) and I adore it. Being thrown and pinned at 17 was my first taste of this, and I have no problem with the idea of resisting someone, even in an intimate context. Just not THIS someone, and I don’t know why.

Lastly, uh, how do you force the willing?! I WANT Him to have sex with me, so how do I “forget” that fact for a little while and more realistically push Him away during that time? He asked if I thought I could keep it up while we had sex, and I don’t know! I enjoy it too much for the struggle to be realistic, I think, but I am going to try.

Next time we get together we will be incorporating resistance as a major theme for the evening and I don’t want it to feel awkward.

I would appreciate any advice on how to get more fully into the mindset of “resisting victim” or “struggling maiden” if you will. Partly because I know it is something He really wants to see, but also because I would like to let myself fully experience it from the mindset of fear and resistance. The adrenaline level of that gets my inner skydiver all worked up.
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RE: Struggle and take down - 11/4/2007 3:20:02 AM   
batshalom


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When I have difficulty doing something, whether it's getting off my rear and ironing shirts or doing something in a scene (like struggling when I just want to cooperate) I keep in mind that this is what he, my chosen Dom, has asked of me and so this is what I need to do to please him. Might sound like too simple an answer but it works for me every single time.

(in reply to Statepalace)
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RE: Struggle and take down - 11/4/2007 5:06:20 AM   
WillowRain


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Some thoughts.

Maybe if you have a command during rough play, that you can rely on him using when he wants you to stop. Some word that means you are to go limp, that may give you more emotional freedom. Then you know you can go physically full out until you hear that command or reach a place of exhaustion.

Have you considered thinking of the experience as being a physical game, not disobediance at all? A physical game of tug of war where you are expected to really give it your physical all. It's a wierd thought, but one I've had often enough in hot moments. If he is strong enough to be worthy of being in my body, he is strong enough to be able to physically take it. And honestly, that is a great feeling, when you want someone desperately, but are giving every physical attempt you can at keeping them from achieving what both of you want. That moment, where you are putting every effort in, arms and legs shaking, can't breath, seeing spots, full strain, nails dug in, and there is that slow inevitable situation of them quite simply getting closer and closer, until they seat into your body. That feeling of yeilding, of having no choice but to yeild is quite exquisite. If you can begin to distance the idea of physical contest away from the idea of disobediance, that might help. It's silly, but you might try some non sexual physical contest too. I'm sure he'll have you giggling as he repeatedly beats you at arm wrestling, no matter how much you struggle or try. You can learn that throwing your carcass against his, isn't really all that big a deal to him. Perhaps he will even find it amusing, or delightful, sort of like when a kitten attacks the hem of your pants. Albeit a large and determined kitten with boobs. :P

Good luck to you!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Statepalace

Questions on struggle and take down –

How do I get more fully into the mindset of fighting Him, when I have this screaming urge to “cooperate and do what the nice man tells me”?

A little background – I’ve been seeing a wonderful Dom for the last five months. First D/s relationship. I’m happy. If life were any sweeter I might need insulin. Communication is good, and we have talked about this. He had suggested that I get the perspective of other subs, so here we go.

I am fine with showing Him the internal struggle that may occur when He tells me to do something. That has never been an issue. We have worked up to the point where I am ok struggling while tied, but without Him holding me down. Five months ago when He first told me to do that I looked at Him in absolute confusion, because fighting Him was the LAST thing on my mind. Little did I know how hot it could be.

Like I mentioned, that screaming need to “do what the nice man says” seems to clash dramatically with the idea of resisting Him. It used to give me a “Does not compute” kind of error message, as I felt that fighting Him was the opposite of doing what He said. Except that He says “Fight me”, and I know resisting Him IS doing what he says. I do it, it just feels awkward.

Last time we played there was actual “hands on” struggling, and WOW, incredibly hot. However, I still felt a huge level of that awkwardness about fighting Him. Being “taken down” plays a large role in my fantasy life, and I have actually fought men (in a judo class) and I adore it. Being thrown and pinned at 17 was my first taste of this, and I have no problem with the idea of resisting someone, even in an intimate context. Just not THIS someone, and I don’t know why.

Lastly, uh, how do you force the willing?! I WANT Him to have sex with me, so how do I “forget” that fact for a little while and more realistically push Him away during that time? He asked if I thought I could keep it up while we had sex, and I don’t know! I enjoy it too much for the struggle to be realistic, I think, but I am going to try.

Next time we get together we will be incorporating resistance as a major theme for the evening and I don’t want it to feel awkward.

I would appreciate any advice on how to get more fully into the mindset of “resisting victim” or “struggling maiden” if you will. Partly because I know it is something He really wants to see, but also because I would like to let myself fully experience it from the mindset of fear and resistance. The adrenaline level of that gets my inner skydiver all worked up.

(in reply to Statepalace)
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RE: Struggle and take down - 11/4/2007 5:59:32 AM   
CrazyAngel


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Well if it's what he wants then technically you're not disobeying, once you get that into your head then you can get down to all the fun of the rough and tumble. Personally I love a big struggle, problem is how to broach the subject (was never much good at explaining what I want (probably because I want just about everything)). One of my friends had a plan for a good ol struggle with multiple doms but unfortunatly we could never find anyone suitable willing to share.

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RE: Struggle and take down - 11/4/2007 6:30:23 AM   
RRafe


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Imagine that if he successfully rapes you-you will lose your shoe collection.

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RE: Struggle and take down - 11/4/2007 7:06:57 AM   
applecandy


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RRafe - was going to suggest something similar.

When my Sweetie and I play like that, he finds something that would make me "miserable" - usually no orgasms for a week or somesuch if he succeeds. That tends to work very well, as I tend to have the same dissonances as the OP.

Maybe trying to find a suitable "punishment" - a torment that you both enjoy on some level, but would definitely give you motivation to do the struggling. Threatening full-out punishment seems a bit extreme for this situation, at least from what I see, but a fun little game may be just the trick.

I'd love to hear what you decide and how it works!

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"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." -Buddha

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RE: Struggle and take down - 11/4/2007 7:27:51 AM   
grlneedstolearn


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Sometimes i will resist because my body is still coming down from an intense session and my body will continue tingle and i will jump with every touch. i just go with the flow so to say, so yes i enjoy struggling and resisting him, and he enjoys teasing me with it

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RE: Struggle and take down - 11/4/2007 8:14:59 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:


I would appreciate any advice on how to get more fully into the mindset of “resisting victim” or “struggling maiden” if you will. Partly because I know it is something He really wants to see, but also because I would like to let myself fully experience it from the mindset of fear and resistance. The adrenaline level of that gets my inner skydiver all worked up.



In short… stop thinking!  You are allowing the mindset of your daily life to inhibit you in the context of play.  It is important to understand that you can wear different hats in different situations with the same person.  If you wish to engage in Resistance play or as I call it “Primal Play”, you need to put the right hat on. 


The following is a quote with some editing of a post I did a while back.  I hope it helps you….
======================================================================= 

Primal play is very much a significant part of my play.  I personally take great pleasure from the free flowing and uninhibited responses that such play generates from my play partners.  The people I Top are encouraged to allow themselves to be free and uninhibited in their behaviors and reactions to the things that occur in the scene.  It has been my experience that those I play with and those I have observed are under an expectation to maintain control of them selves and behave appropriately in all given situations.  These expectations can over time lead to a buildup of stress and this requires a constructive outlet for release.  One manner to release this stress that I provide my girls is the primal play.  My girls have one rule in play..."They have no rules"  I very specifically instruct my girls to avoid any thoughtful consideration of how they want or should behave.  If they think it, They DO IT!  It is my pleasure in play to enforce and control their behaviors.  I will seek the means and methods to inhibit their behaviors and reactions that I choose.  I will also encourage and incite the behaviors and reactions that I enjoy.  I personally find an intense pleasure by dominating and enforcing control within a scene.  In effect their behaviors and reactions often appear to be chaotic and radical, but yet I effect control upon them and harness the energy they produce and focus it in the manner I choose.  For my girls there is a sense of empowerment and freedom within the play that we do.  The play tends to provide a catalyst for achieving and maintaining the level of behaviors that I expect of them in their daily activities.

For some this play is rather shocking and disturbing to watch.  A bottom fighting back for many could be a warning flag of concern to the consensual nature of the play at hand.  For many Tops a bottom fighting back can give them the appearance that consent is being revoked and are unable to continue to play as result.  It is indeed important that those participating in the play have clear understanding of the nature of primal play.  It is important to understand how such play can or will be stopped.  One should understand the risks associated with this kind of play.  I personally have been dropped to the floor, kicked, punched, bit, scratched and even took a knee into the groin.  A bottom that fights back will feel the force of the Top against their resistance.  A Top will use equal force to the bottom’s resistance, plus one.  This “plus one” is the appropriate force to bring submission and break the resistance.  For the bottom, there is always the risk that this “plus One” will be more than they can tolerate and the extra force could be sufficient to cause more than immediate submission in the scene, but a lasting negative impact outside the scene.  For the Top, you will always run the risk that the bottom’s resistance will be greater than the force you are willing to exert to bring enforced submission.  As a Top that plays a lot in Primal play, I protect against these risk with one factor and one factor alone… Keep my girls free of harm.  If I am unsure that my girl can take the “plus one” to bring enforced submission, I will end the play.  If I am unsure of my ability to use “plus one” to enforce submission, I will end the play.  The point of primal play is not to see who wins… but to have fun free of Harm!

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Struggle and take down - 11/4/2007 8:24:16 AM   
xoxi


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Maybe you need a bit more role play to get into it?

Ask him to say or do something that you absolutely hate...I don't know...call you a slut, tell you that you're just a bunch of holes, laugh about how easily he can rape you, I don't know you but I do know that everyone has a switch in their head that just makes them snap with anger when you tweak it.  It's hard to struggle if the 'bad guy' is just having sex with you the same way you guys have sex every night...mix it up a bit.

And if all else fails have him put a hand around your neck and squeeze.  I guarantee within 60 seconds you WILL struggle

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RE: Struggle and take down - 11/4/2007 8:46:46 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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FR

Obviously you're making progress- so stop beating yourself up from not being perfect right away.  This is a kink in which you aren't practiced or inherently inclined.  It will take awhile to train you and open you up into the channels he wants you to go.  The more you get upset over not doing it, the less you'll be focused on just doing it.

Secondly, talk more out of the scene about what he means when it comes to forcing, why does he like it, what does it do for him.  Understanding his perspective and getting into it from that angle might help you get into the whole experience of it more and help it be more organic to you.

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RE: Struggle and take down - 11/4/2007 10:18:20 AM   
charlotte12


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

Maybe you need a bit more role play to get into it?

Ask him to say or do something that you absolutely hate...I don't know...call you a slut, tell you that you're just a bunch of holes, laugh about how easily he can rape you, I don't know you but I do know that everyone has a switch in their head that just makes them snap with anger when you tweak it.  It's hard to struggle if the 'bad guy' is just having sex with you the same way you guys have sex every night...mix it up a bit.

And if all else fails have him put a hand around your neck and squeeze.  I guarantee within 60 seconds you WILL struggle



I was thinking along the same lines xoxi.

Perhaps he needs to become someone other than the "nice guy." i like to please too and when asked nicely to struggle i get confused as well because, well....he's just so nice about it. Perhaps find a way that he can get you to struggle without "asking you to." If he growls in your ear that you are NOT going to enjoy this and perhaps adds a little pain that you don't like he might find a much more resistent girl in his arms.

Hard to struggle against something that feels good unless given the proper motivation. I'm sure you'll find yours.




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RE: Struggle and take down - 11/16/2007 5:14:10 PM   
Statepalace


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Sorry it’s taken so long to reply to everyone – work has been crazy these last few weeks. Who knew working for Aflac could be so much fun? I love my job ;)


Since I’m not quite familiar with how to incorporate those little text boxes from each person’s reply, I’m just going to go by name and do it all in one post.



Batshalom – I know what you mean; pleasing Him should being sufficient motivation to do something. Doing my weekly grocery shopping in thigh high boots with six inch heels (and the longest skirts I have, lol) falls under that category! This isn’t quite like that, though, as it is something I don’t know HOW to do without that awkward feeling. I just want to make it feel more natural. Thanks for the reply.



Willowrain – I really like the idea of arm wrestling. I think it might help get me used to resisting, and the non sexual part takes away a lot of the “performance anxiety”, if that makes sense. I love the description of a large and determined kitten with boobs! And oh yes, I totally agree about hotness of having someone physically strong enough to just take it. Very, very hot. The arm wrestling may also help shift it into the physical contest realm, and make it easier to embrace. Thank you.


CrazyAngel – I know, technically I’m doing what He says, I just want to feel it AND know it. Thanks for the reply.


RRafe – LMAO. He wishes I had MORE shoes. I am such a tomboy (correction, I WAS such a tomboy). I have more tools than shoes. My favorite pairs are - 1 pair of running shoes, 1 pair of boots, and my flip flops. Have only three heels (for work) and they’re from Payless. He’s added the 6” thigh high boots, and a 5” pair of locking heels. So losing the shoe collection might not be something He would be cool with.

Besides, the whole point is for Him to successfully force me (can you really rape the willing?) while I resist. If He didn’t win at some point in the evening that would kind of defeat the purpose, lol. Plus, since we have “no biting, no head shots and no groin” as struggle rules, He’s taking me down unless I hurt Him.

I do like the idea of tying a goal to it, though. That concept made me think of having a time goal, like maybe 5, 10, 15 minutes. Round 1, 2, 3? I could see 5 minutes as a minimum, then maybe some kind of reward if I was able to keep Him away for longer than that? It might work. Thank you. 



Applecandy – The thing is, I KNOW He’s going to succeed, so the “punishment” would be unavoidable. I tend to panic in situations like that, where I know that no matter what I do I’m going to fail Him. No win situations do not work with me (and me having no possibility to make Him happy is interpreted by my head as “no win”). Knowing that I’m going to fail at something He asks me to do just tears me up. I just start apologizing over and over for f*()ing it all up, before anything even happens. I know it might sound strange, but I am harsher with myself than He could ever be. Adding “punishments” to something I’m tentative about would likely just make me freeze and mentally call myself stupid.

Yeah, I was the college senior with an ulcer and anxiety attacks. It’s MUCH better, and I can mess up now without beating myself up for it (teaching high school for 2 years helped a lot).
 
I do like the idea of tying it to something, and maybe making a game out of it would help, but with rewards instead of punishments. Heck, they don’t even have to be rewards. He could just say that different levels of struggling made Him “happy, very happy, or incredibly pleased”. That might work. Thank you.

grlneedstolearn – Thank you for the post. I hope that I will be enjoying it soon!


KnightofMists – He uses the word “primal” a lot to describe His goal for this kind of interaction. It is the opposite of thinking to much, I know!

Had a thought just now that might explain my hesitation with this. While I have been “kink aware” since about 18, this is the first D/s relationship. It started out in a D/s structure, so I’ve never worn a “different hat” with Him. Huh. Maybe that’s why. The quote did help, thank you.  


Xoxi and charlotte12 – Thank you. We will be doing a role play with it, and I think that will help. And yeah, He’s going to be a “bad guy”, so I think that will help a lot. He has described my character as a lot more “feisty”, and I think that looking at it as theatre where I am expected to fill a certain role will REALLY help. Thank you!


LuckyAlbatross – Thank you. It never occurred to me that a kink would take practice, but that makes perfect sense. And yes, I have been beating myself up over it a lot, and the more I do that the less I can focus on being in the moment.

We’ve talked about what He wants it to look like, but we haven’t really discussed the why of it. I am such a huge “why” person and I like the idea of seeing it from His perspective.

Great advice – but I would expect nothing less from a Buffy fan ;) If I had three wishes, after disease cures and ending hunger, James Marsters would be number three. Screw the millions, give me Spike.


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the empire will be at peace of its own accord

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RE: Struggle and take down - 11/16/2007 5:45:23 PM   
laurell3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Statepalace

Sorry it’s taken so long to reply to everyone – work has been crazy these last few weeks. Who knew working for Aflac could be so much fun? I love my job ;)



Imagine the duck gets it if you don't follow his rules and struggle!   Kidding aside, I agree with LA, you'll get there when you do, it sounds like the two of you have a good relationship and you want to please him and you work well together.

_____________________________

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When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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RE: Struggle and take down - 11/16/2007 5:58:56 PM   
littlebitxxx


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StatePalace:  Understand the situation completely and watching posts to find the answer.  Great thread.

KofM:   How do you get to that Primal Place?  When there is no fear, no edge, none, nada, zip.  I've participated in a 'take down/rape' scene and I forcibly had to talk myself into fighting back.  It turned more into a wrestling match with much laughter in spots (and great welts by the end of it) but through it all there seemed to be no primal instinct for survival, no fighting for my life kinda thing.  I was niggled by the "I'm safe, I'm safe" thing as well as the arousal of "Ooh, coming all over Domly like that makes me melt". 

How do you get to that edge, to leave behind the human and go back to that feral animal acting on instinct only?

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RE: Struggle and take down - 11/16/2007 6:38:37 PM   
rmanrr


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Greetings
not fully thought out but just a quick mental thought...how about, if you do not put your full effort into it you will be asked to leave....sufficient motivation? heh heh

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Courage...the ability to overcome obstacles during the course.
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RE: Struggle and take down - 11/16/2007 6:59:09 PM   
Statepalace


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laurell - you quack me up. Don't get me started on the duck jokes. I've only been there six months and I'm already one of "those people".

Really, I have these little plush Aflac ducks that say "aflac, aflac, AFLACCCC!!!" when you squeeze them. We give them out at enrollments. Now that would be something sufficiently neutral enough that He could hold it over my head as a "penalty". Motivating and light hearted at the same time.

We work SO well together it's eery sometimes. After trying to make myself fit what various partners wanted me to be over the years, it's really amazing to have someone that fits me. He just wants me to be, well, me. A me that doesn't wear jeans, but that's superficial ;) Not having to cover up or appologize for the way my brain works is very refreshing.

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RE: Struggle and take down - 11/16/2007 7:11:20 PM   
Statepalace


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rmanrr - as He flys down to see me, it would be hard to leave my own house.

If, however, someone did present that ultimatum to me, I would decline to play further with them. Ever. I do not work that way. Being asked to leave I am guessing would mean being asked to leave the relationship? It seems a bit much to have that as "motivation" for something like this.

As I said in my original post, it is not a matter of motivation. I am motivated enough to come on here and ask for advice on how to make it a better experience for Him, because if I'll all anxious about doing it right then that puts a damper on things.  

What I asked for was suggestions on how to properly get into the mindset of "innocent maiden/struggling victim". I was hoping for tips and practical things to make the experience flow more naturally, and I have received some great suggestions so far.

_____________________________

And if I cease to desire and remain still,
the empire will be at peace of its own accord

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RE: Struggle and take down - 11/16/2007 7:16:54 PM   
HornyToadsMI


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OMG...i want one of those little ducks so bad!!!  They are so cute!

my 2 cents - is there anything that freaks you out....a good mind f*ck can get your heart racing...sneak attack while you are sleeping, or dark alley, sensory deprivation, anything to get your "fight or flight" going....that maybe what you need.  If i remember right, you said you have judo training.....being cool in the moment is part of your training?  This might be harder for you than you may realize.  Good luck...finding your trigger may take time.....but it should come. 

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RE: Struggle and take down - 11/16/2007 7:24:16 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlebitxxx

KofM:   How do you get to that Primal Place?  When there is no fear, no edge, none, nada, zip.  I've participated in a 'take down/rape' scene and I forcibly had to talk myself into fighting back.  It turned more into a wrestling match with much laughter in spots (and great welts by the end of it) but through it all there seemed to be no primal instinct for survival, no fighting for my life kinda thing.  I was niggled by the "I'm safe, I'm safe" thing as well as the arousal of "Ooh, coming all over Domly like that makes me melt". 



It takes two to tango...... If the Top is not pushing and raising the stakes.. then the instinct arousal will have a difficult time waking up.  I am very adapt at pushing my girls buttons so to speak.  With Alandra.. I actually get her angered.... nothing like a wack on the thigh to piss her off!  Kyra on the other hand is different.  She is actually learning to be comfortable and confident to fight back.  In the beginning she was rather timid.  But... slowly but surely she strikes out at me.  As she gains confidence... she becomes more aggressive the next time.  With alandra the button is a big red one... but Kyra it has been slow pressure build up and then she strikes out... and then the fun begins.

As far as Fear... Alandra has never responded out of fear... she knows me too well.  She knows she will not be intently harmed.  With Kyra... the fear button doesn't work either... But not so much out trust to me but her natural instinct is to withdraw when emotions of fear is excited. 

Understand that Primal is a Fight or Flight thing.... The Top needs to uncover what will cause a person to fight... Anger works rather well I have found for my girls.  This is of course with my rule... I they think it they do it!  Second rule.. there are Never negative consequences outside of play for their actions within play.  What happens in the play... Stays in the Play.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Struggle and take down - 11/16/2007 7:35:31 PM   
Statepalace


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Joined: 9/20/2007
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Being cool in the moment is part of the problem, I think. When I think "fight" my reaction is to go "other", which would be emotionally neutral and yoga calm. Hard to get into the emotions when I'm analyzing how to throw him and then going "damn, can't do that, lamp's in the way - nope, can't do that, I'd break the cat". Going all rational kind of takes the instinct (fun) out of it.

Something that really pisses me off? When people mess with canon. X-Men 3. They got it SO wrong. I think, though, that He and I -MAY- have hit on a role play that will, uh, allow me to let my inner super hero out.

No laughing, please. I've been a comic book freak since elementary school.

With that in mind - I'm going to be (super heroine that I am to embarrassed to name).  He will be the bad guy. Since I hate it when people "get the story wrong", we're hoping that I will be able to stay "in character" out of my own warped but powerful urge to preserve canon continuity.

I think (hope) that having a ready made character I can "blame" for resisting is going to be really helpful.

_____________________________

And if I cease to desire and remain still,
the empire will be at peace of its own accord

(in reply to HornyToadsMI)
Profile   Post #: 20
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