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RE: While YOU Can Discuss Conspiracy Theories - 11/6/2007 7:41:40 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Come on, fargle, how about not overstating our case? If we're really comparing China to Nazi Germany, why exactly do we have thousands of trade agreements with them? Oh, you're saying we shouldn't? Then those same politicians who were roasting Yahoo should be examining their own dealings with China.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

You know, I might be the only person who has some sympathy for Yahoo in this case. How can they ask their employees to resist a demand from a Chinese law-enforcement which was LEGAL in China? This committee session was a big demonstration by politicians who don't have the balls to challenge China themselves, so they pretend that it's Yahoo's responsibility. Yahoo is supposed to violate Chinese law in order to please Congressman So-and-so?

Besides, as people are implying, it's not as though our own government hasn't made similar requests of internet-service providers. Ah, but that's in the name of "fighting terror"... I forgot; that makes everything OK.

The same way a Frenchman would resist a demand from a Nazi law-enforcement which was LEGAL in Germany.

Just because it was LEGAL to report Jews, didn't make it right. And the GOOD FRENCH didn't rat out Jews.

So, YAHOO is *EXACTLY AS EVIL* as the Chinese Government.

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 21

RE: While YOU Can Discuss Conspiracy Theories - 11/6/2007 7:43:23 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

So, how often do you go to prison for standing up to the evil Bush

could be worse you could have worked for the clintons :)

heh heh

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 22

RE: While YOU Can Discuss Conspiracy Theories - 11/6/2007 10:31:25 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Come on, fargle, how about not overstating our case? If we're really comparing China to Nazi Germany, why exactly do we have thousands of trade agreements with them? Oh, you're saying we shouldn't? Then those same politicians who were roasting Yahoo should be examining their own dealings with China.

Let's see... Did US Companies do business with Nazis...

There's IBM selling Hollerith Tabulators. Prescott Bush and all that filthy Nazi money.. Henry Ford...

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 23

RE: While YOU Can Discuss Conspiracy Theories - 11/6/2007 10:37:38 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Standing up for what's right can be a bitch.

So, how often do you go to prison for standing up to the evil Bush

Well, I've *NEVER* been asked to rat on a client, so the answer would be "Zero". However, if asked, I'd tell 'em to go fuck off and come back when they get a judge to authorize their inquiry.

quote:

quote:

Well, to be fair, it's nothing worse than AT&T, Verizon et. al. unlawful warrantless domestic surveillance programs. Which, if prosecuted, would result in fines which would put AT&T, Verizon, et. al. into receivership.

No trial first, farglebargle?

What part of "If prosecuted" didn't you understand? Is this like the inability to understand "ANY PERSON", again?

quote:

And China is spying internally for political speech, while the President is spying on international terrorist communications.

Quite a difference.

BULLSHIT, "the President is spying on international terrorist communications.". I know you're not dumb enough to fall for that crap.

Why is AT&T lobbying harder than ever for Ex-Post Facto ( which is unconstitutional ) immunity for the alleged crimes?

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 11/6/2007 10:38:02 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 24

RE: While YOU Can Discuss Conspiracy Theories - 11/6/2007 10:59:44 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Let's see... Did US Companies do business with Nazis...

Um.... let me think??????

In the 1920s many big American corporations enjoyed sizeable investments in Germany.
IBM established a German subsidiary, Dehomag, before World War I;
in the 1920s General Motors took over Germany's largest car manufacturer, Adam Opel AG; and Ford founded a branch plant, later known as the Ford-Werke, in Cologne.

Other US firms contracted strategic partnerships with German companies.
Standard Oil of New Jersey - today's Exxon - developed intimate links with the German trust IG Farben.

By the early 1930s, an elite of about twenty of the largest American corporations had a German connection

including:
Du Pont,
Union Carbide,
Westinghouse,
General Electric,
Gilette,
Goodrich,
Singer,
Eastman Kodak,
Coca-Cola,
IBM, and
ITT.

Finally, many
American law firms,
investment companies, and
banks were deeply involved in America's investment offensive in Germany, among them the renowned Wall Street law firm

Sullivan & Cromwell and the banks
J.P. Morgan and Dillon,
Read and Company, as well as the
Union Bank of New York, owned by Brown Brothers & Harriman.
The Union Bank was intimately linked with the financial and industrial empire of German steel magnate Thyssen, whose financial support enabled Hitler to come to power. This bank was managed by Prescott Bush, grandfather of George W. Bush. Prescott Bush was allegedly also an eager supporter of Hitler, funnelled money to him via Thyssen, and in return made considerable profits by doing business with Nazi Germany; with the profits he launched his son, the later president, in the oil business. (6)

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/summary_0199-2799547_ITM

YES!

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 25

RE: While YOU Can Discuss Conspiracy Theories - 11/6/2007 11:14:44 PM

luckydog1

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Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

Intersetingly, Thyssen ended up in a concentration camp, and was not really an ideological supporter of Hitler.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 26

RE: While YOU Can Discuss Conspiracy Theories - 11/6/2007 11:32:22 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

now that is interesting, got a link?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 27

RE: While YOU Can Discuss Conspiracy Theories - 11/6/2007 11:43:17 PM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

What is truly amazing is that you pretend to have done research on this subject. About the same amount of research as you do on most things I suppose. In about 15 seconds I found this

"
Thyssen accepted the exclusion of Jews from German business and professional life by the Nazis, and dismissed his own Jewish employees, but he did not share Hitler's violent anti-Semitism. As a Catholic, he also objected to the increasing repression of the Roman Catholic Church, which gathered pace after 1935. The breaking point for Thyssen was the violent pogrom against the Jews in November 1938 known as Kristallnacht, which caused him to resign from the Council of State. By 1939 he was also bitterly criticising the regime's economic policies, which were subordinating everything to rearmament in preparation for war. [1]

[edit] World War
In September 1939 World War II broke out. Thyssen sent Hermann Goering a telegram saying he was opposed to the war, shortly before leaving for Switzerland with his family. He was expelled from the Nazi Party and the Reichstag, and his company was briefly nationalised. It was returned to other members of the Thyssen family some years after the war. In 1940 Thyssen moved to France, intending to immigrate to Argentina, but was caught by the German occupation of France while he was visiting his ill mother in Belgium. He was arrested and taken back to Germany, where he was confined, first in a sanatorium near Berlin, then from 1943 in Sachsenhausen concentration camp. His wife Amelie instead of escaping to Argentina joined her husband and spent the whole war in the concentration camp with her husband. "She had spent the good times with her husband and would also join him in the difficult times. In February 1945 he was sent to Dachau concentration camp. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Thyssen

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 28

RE: While YOU Can Discuss Conspiracy Theories - 11/7/2007 12:22:44 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

What is truly amazing is that you pretend to have done research on this subject.

Yeh lucky but at least i didnt refute it using popular mechanics magazine or wiki LMAO

1930s: Hitler Rises - Thyssen/Bush Cash In
Thyssen would later try to claim that his weekends with Hitler and Hess at his Rhineland castles were not personal but strictly business and that he did not approve of most of Hitler's ideas, but the well-known journalist R.G Waldeck, who spent time with Thyssen at a spa in the Black Forest, remembered quite differently. Waldeck said when he and Thyssen would walk through the cool Black Forest in 1929-30, Thyssen would tell Waldeck that he believed in Hitler. He spoke of Hitler "with warmth" and said the Nazis were "new men" that would make Germany strong again. With the depression bleeding Europe, Thyssen's financial support made Hitler's rise to power almost inevitable.

Hitler ordered a'"rebirth of the German army" and contracted Thyssen and United Steel Works for the overhaul. Thyssen's steel empire was the cold steel heart of the new Nazi war machine that led the way to World War II, killing millions across Europe.

Thyssen's and Flick's profits soared into the hundreds of millions in 1934
and snip

Thyssen and Flick sold Consolidated Steel to UBC. Under the complete control of Harriman and management of Bush, the company became Silesian American Corporation which became part of UBC and Harriman's portfolio of 15 corporations. Thyssen quickly moved to Switzerland and later France to hide from the terror about to be unleashed by the Nazi war machine he had helped build.

1950s: Bush Sells UBC Stock
By 1948, Fritz Thyssen's life was in ruins. After being jailed by the Nazis, he was jailed by the Allies and interrogated extensively, but not completely, by US investigators. Thyssen and Flick were ordered to pay reparations and served time in prison for their atrocious crimes against humanity.

On February 8, 1951, Fritz Thyssen died bitterly in Argentina at the age of 78. Thyssen was angry at the way he was treated by Europe after the war and how history would remember him as Hitler's most important and prominent financier. When Thyssen died, the Alien Property Custodian released the assets of the Union Banking Corporation to Brown Brothers Harriman. The remaining stockholders cashed in their stocks and quietly liquidated the rest of UBC's blood money.

Prescott Bush received $1.5 million for his share in UBC. That money enabled Bush to help his son, George Herbert Walker Bush, to set up his first royalty firm, Overby Development Company, that same year.

http://www.john-loftus.com/Thyssen.asp

Zzzzzz

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 11/7/2007 12:24:56 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 29

RE: While YOU Can Discuss Conspiracy Theories - 11/7/2007 12:46:31 AM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

You are the one who did not know he was put in Concentration camps, Dachau. Are you actually disputing anything in the snippet of article I posted?
I actually think a lot of German people were pretty upset with the Versaille Treaty, with out being full blown Ideological Nazis.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 30

RE: While YOU Can Discuss Conspiracy Theories - 11/7/2007 12:51:13 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newyork/ny-bc-ny--patriotactlawsuit1105nov05,0,1396048.story

Here's 5800 Americans who CANNOT discuss Conspiracy Theories..

quote:

The plaintiff said the gag provisions of the law "make it difficult or impossible for people like me _ people who have firsthand experience with the NSL statute _ to discuss their specific concerns with the public, the press and Congress."

The plaintiff added: "This seems to be counterintuitive to everything I assumed about this country's commitment to free speech and the value of political discourse."

The judge, in his ruling, said the NSL statute was so improper that to let the law stand might turn an innocent legislative step into "the legislative equivalent of breaking and entering, with an ominous free pass to the hijacking of constitutional values."

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 31

RE: While YOU Can Discuss Conspiracy Theories - 11/7/2007 1:01:03 AM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

Where do you get the 5,800 number from? What I suppose you don't get Farg is that anyone can discuss this case and say most anything they want about it. In China and some other places, the writer of the article you cited would be prosecuted. IF you posted in China about the Chinese gov the way you do about the American Gov, you would be arrested farg.

Interstingly your article notes that these NSL's existed and were used before the Patriot act, and have nothing to do with it.

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 32

RE: While YOU Can Discuss Conspiracy Theories - 11/7/2007 1:09:38 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

I knew they threw his ass in jail but not specifically in a concentration camp. Not real fast to believe wiki or your 15 seconds of research.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 33

RE: While YOU Can Discuss Conspiracy Theories - 11/7/2007 1:15:18 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

You are the one who did not know he was put in Concentration camps, Dachau. Are you actually disputing anything in the snippet of article I posted?
I actually think a lot of German people were pretty upset with the Versaille Treaty, with out being full blown Ideological Nazis.

The first hint of WWII was as early as 1920 when German officiers were openly talking of revenge against the French. The real problem was that the allies allowed the Germans to march back to Germany as an army where they should have probably made them straddle back as a defeated, disarmed, disorganised mob which would have undermined the German officier class. That and the Versailles treaty dhould have been more magnanimous. I'm one of those that believe WWII was an extension of WWI.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 34

RE: While YOU Can Discuss Conspiracy Theories - 11/7/2007 1:20:38 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

The Communist Chinese can't discuss reality.

quote:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071106/ap_on_go_co/congress_yahoo;_ylt=AoYA4hMcY5dLDVqhNv71p66WwvIE

Shi Tao was sent to jail for 10 years for engaging in pro-democracy efforts deemed subversive after Yahoo turned over information about his online activities requested by Chinese authorities.

We in the west can't really complain about China overmuch when we are queuing up to do business with them. Not only that, I bet many people that criticize China are more than happy to buy products made in their sweat shops. When someone advocates throwing away all trade deals and other actions by the west that help support China, then they might have a point. Until then they haven't.

I do notice that much of this criticism about China smacks of jealousy, fear and xenophobia because they are taking away western jobs. I never noticed that much concern about China before their recent economic success.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 35

RE: While YOU Can Discuss Conspiracy Theories - 11/7/2007 1:35:03 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Where do you get the 5,800 number from?

You're right. 5,800 is way too low.

FTFA:

"In March, the government released a report showing the FBI issued approximately 8,500 national security letter requests in 2000, the year before the passage of the Patriot Act. The number of requests rose to 39,000 by 2003 and to 56,000 in 2004 before falling to 47,000 in 2005. Most of the requests sought telephone billing records, telephone or e-mail subscriber information or electronic communication transactional records. "

So, between 2000 and 2005, there were 8,500 + 39,000 + 56,000 + 47,000 = 150,500

What I suppose you don't get Farg is that anyone can discuss this case and say most anything they want about it. In China and some other places, the writer of the article you cited would be prosecuted. IF you posted in China about the Chinese gov the way you do about the American Gov, you would be arrested farg.

So, it's GOOD that the actual people subject to the gag order cannot discuss it, but everyone else can discuss the hypotheticals they can only assume?

Yeah, that's WAY better.

I guess, "Being only a LITTLE totalitarian" is ok for some folks.

Others would consider the situation like pregnancy.

You either ARE or your AREN'T. And if you do it a little bit, they you ARE.

quote:

Interstingly your article notes that these NSL's existed and were used before the Patriot act, and have nothing to do with it.

Adding up the numbers, there is a clear rise in their use, inconsistent with any real threat.

But we already KNOW that the government in conducting Unlawful Domestic Surveillance. It's the entire point of EFF v. AT&T, and the optical splitters on the network backbone, and associated documentation for the hardware to record and analyze ALL the traffic on that network is public knowledge at this point.

How do you filter out just the "Foreign Terrorists" from an optical splitter on a network backbone exactly, without conducting unwarranted surveillance on ALL THE OTHER TRAFFIC?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 36

RE: While YOU Can Discuss Conspiracy Theories - 11/7/2007 1:43:50 AM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

Are you serious Meat cleaver, you have never heard anyone complain about Communism before?

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 37

RE: While YOU Can Discuss Conspiracy Theories - 11/7/2007 1:56:59 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Are you serious Meat cleaver, you have never heard anyone complain about Communism before?

Not as much as now but what we have in China is not communism and never was. Most communist states apart from the old east European countries were nationalists and you can't be nationalist and communist, though they could be more correctly described as fascist, business being subservient to the state. However, calling them fascist would be inconvenient for the west who are not supposed to like things that are fascist. The east European countries weren't communist but ocupied satelites.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 38

RE: While YOU Can Discuss Conspiracy Theories - 11/7/2007 9:17:42 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

What type of government …when …who… who supported who… it all makes little difference to me.

Communist…fascists….dictators….ayatollahs…monarchy….republics…. In the end it is the people who must claim responsibility for the actions of their government. If they choose to live under a type of rule then they are agreeing to its actions.

I blame the Chinese people for allowing their governments extreme suppression of humane rights and freedoms and pollution of their land.

I blame the American people for their involvement in the new world order.

I blame the citizens of Israel and their Moslem neighbor nations for their inability to live together and negotiate a peace.

It is not governments but the will of the people at fault. The German people were at fault for embracing Hitler…. The Russian people for embracing Stalin… The American people for allowing Bush to invade another country without being attacked.

Plenty of blame to go around

I’m sorry I don’t blame governments… they are just a reflection of the people they govern.

Butch

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 39

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