RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (Full Version)

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charlotte12 -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 2:23:57 PM)


I would say that the many of the preconceptions or norms of the lifestyle have helped me find a way to express things that were inside me that i did not fully understand. I do not define myself by the rituals of D/s but i do find that the rituals of D/s are often helpful in explaining who i am both to myself and others.

And now for the longer more complicated version of what i just said....hehe..i'm bored at work...what can i say...gotta ramble a little.

I often feel confused when people say that some people are born Dominants or submissives or slaves. It boggles my mind that some of us can be wired to these activities so specifically and yet like Tigrita says, a lot of it comes naturally to me. Tigrita's post made me think of this because i think that often people try to stay at one end of the spectrum or the other, stating that Dominance or submission is simply natural and needs non of the rules and rituals or that the rules and rituals make up the relationship. The way i see it people can be naturally Dominant or submissive and BDSM is not in fact what is natural to human nature but simply the effects of humans trying to find a rhyme and reason for their natural behavior. The labels and protocols that we find in the lifestyle seem to me to be simply an attempt at a way to communicate with eachother about these natural instints that we have.
The first person i ever felt submissive to did not call himself a Dom. I had recently discovered BDSM on the internet and told him of my interest in it. I don't believe he had very much if any experience and yet looking back i can see so many patterns that took place between the two of us that at the time i didn't have a name for. I remember sitting on the floor next to his chair because it simply felt natural. I remember quietly waiting at his side for hours sometimes, content merely to be in his presence and do something for him if he asked. Now i know that kneeling is a common expression of submission and that slaves are generally expected not to demand their Master's attention when he is otherwise occupied. But i don't find that this common thread between myself and other submissives somehow makes it any less natural for me.



RRafe -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 2:41:34 PM)

This is what I mean by "natural". Simply two people getting along in a way that is simply based on compatability in temperament. This has happened in relationships since the race began......not just since the times that a bunch of gay leathermen decided that using a military structure to have gay sex would be fun.



slavegirljoy -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 3:11:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita
 
So, my question to everyone is, what do you think would have been different about the way you express your submissiveness or dominance if you’d never been introduced to others into BDSM and some of the ‘norms’ that come with it for other lifestylers? 
Well, first off, there's no way of knowing how i might have been different had things happened differently.  But, as it is, i only became aware of BDSM because i met a man who brought me into it and showed me what it is, through real life experience, not by reading about it or discussing it.  Of course, this was way back before the Internet was in existence and before personal computers and before......yeah, back in the dark ages of the mid '70s, when BDSM actually meant Bondage&Discipline/Sadomasochism and that's what it entailed.  If it didn't have B&D and elements of SM in it, it wasn't considered BDSM.
 
Actually, i'm very grateful that i learned about BDSM by doing it, rather than reading about it on the Internet or in a novel or stumbling into some chat room or hearing other people talk about it.  If i hadn't come into BDSM via real life experience and had only learned of it by reading the stuff that is on the Internet, including this site, i would have a very different and negative view about it.
 
For me, involvement in BDSM started out as, and still is, a very personal and raw expression of my sexuality that takes place only within my intimate relationship.  The only 'norms', with regards to BDSM, that i have ever known have been what i have personally experienced with the men i have enjoyed being submissive with and being 'used and abused by'.  If it weren't for having had plenty of personal, firsthand, real life experience before coming onto the Internet, i would have a very poor opinion of BDSM.  If all i had to go by was what is written on this site, i would think that BDSM was a load of crap and i wouldn't want to have anything to do with it.
 
slave joy
Owned property of Master David



Stephann -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 3:37:50 PM)

In that 'magical' decade between starting to date girls, and putting a name and face to D/s, I was dominant.  I loathed myself, for being dominant.  I had been brought up by a dominant shrew of a step-mother, who's reaction to anyone being more dominant than her, was to tear them apart (verbally and physically.)  I grew up in an environment, where I learned the hard way that 'boys and girls were equal' even if that was contrary to most relationships that I had witnessed.  So, futilely, I made every effort in my relationships to be equal.  That translated to being 'equal in responsibility' without necessarily being (or expecting) equality in fulfillment. 

My relationships naturally formed with submissives.  I, quite unnaturally, attempted to make these relationships 'equal.'  Those relationships inevitably became unbalanced, leaving my partner feeling she had too much authority, and myself feeling I have not enough; and both of us wondering why it's not working.

Without having learned what I did about dominance and submission, I would probably still be within that vicious circle today.

Stephan



LaTigresse -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 3:44:29 PM)

Stephan, I love that you wrote that. Thank you. It reminded me why I was so thrilled to find other people that were similar to me. People that didn't believe everything always has to be equal. That there are people that do not want to be treated equally in a relationship. That was a big hurdle for me. Huge.



InkedMaster -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 3:45:58 PM)

I is what I is with or without a label, makes no difference to me. As a fairly private person I don't attend many munches or public play parties. I do enjoy demos if it's on a subject I have an interest in. So what would be different for me had I not been persay introduced to the bdsm society? I wouldn't know how to do fireplay and I wouldn't have this board to ask questions.



MidMichCowboy -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 4:04:35 PM)

I don't demand the "formal way". But I don't judge others who want protocols and such. I've had close friends who enjoyed it and lived it. They live their life and I live my life. Why do we have to be so judgmental for those people who pick a different path. I like being both a gentleman and a barbarian. I don't need my lady to call me sir or master all the time, but I do want her submission. I love having in depth discussions with her and I love taking her how I want with no safe words or games. I don't need her to lower her eyes all the time, I like looking in them. I do like to tie her up and I do like collars. So I have a path in which I've picked what works for me. That's what everyone has to do. Who cares how people express things between them. I don't feel I'm in any position to judge anyone else's lifestyle and I would ask they give me the same consideration. This group of people more than any other, should be open minded.



RRafe -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 4:38:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Stephan, I love that you wrote that. Thank you. It reminded me why I was so thrilled to find other people that were similar to me. People that didn't believe everything always has to be equal. That there are people that do not want to be treated equally in a relationship. That was a big hurdle for me. Huge.


There is a big difference between equal responsibility, and equal authority.



LaTigresse -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/8/2007 11:16:21 AM)

I agree, and I cannot imagine being involved with someone that didn't also.



Dnomyar -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/8/2007 11:27:45 AM)

I agree with RRafe that Chemistry and the ability to simply pay attention to another individual is the key to any relationship. What reason is there for jumping into something because of a preconception? This the information age. If you have a computer look it up. If not go to the library and use their computers.



Stephann -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/8/2007 2:11:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I agree, and I cannot imagine being involved with someone that didn't also.


LaTigresse, thanks for the comment.  It was a huge hurdle for me as well, and not likely something I would have made on my own, if I had not seen people happy within dynamics where equality of authority was not only unimportant, it seemed outright rejected.

What seemed to happen to me, though, was in expecting submissives to shoulder more authority, I also felt I was shouldering more responsibility; in effect, I would punish myself for problems and mistakes, without giving myself the tools or means to resolve those problems.

In response to those who posted that they would be what they were, absent the illustrations the community provides, I agree that there are always going to be individuals who refuse to conform to society.  Having said that, I think it's like Wicca; I think for every person who practices it as a religion, two practice it as shock value or counter-religion.

Stephan



LaTigresse -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/8/2007 3:14:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

What seemed to happen to me, though, was in expecting submissives to shoulder more authority, I also felt I was shouldering more responsibility; in effect, I would punish myself for problems and mistakes, without giving myself the tools or means to resolve those problems.



I clipped this part because I can so hugely relate to this. I am really good at beating myself up instead of just relaxing and letting it flow. It seems the more I demand of others, the more I demand of myself.



catize -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/8/2007 7:21:45 PM)

quote:

 So, my question to everyone is, what do you think would have been different about the way you express your submissiveness or dominance if you’d never been introduced to others into BDSM and some of the ‘norms’ that come with it for other lifestylers?  Do you think it would be less satisfying?  More satisfying?  Just as satisfying but very different?  Just as satisfying and not any different?  Looking forward to seeing what others think.  


I imagine there are a variety of ways that I could submit and be happy.
I have come to the realization that many of the practices within D/s are symbols of the basic dynamic.  Cuffs, locks, rope, toys, positions are merely the overt representations of the relationship.  If one does not feel or know submission or dominance from within, then the props have little meaning. 
The closest analogy that comes to mind is when I am invited to dinner at a house where they say grace before a meal.  I will bow my head (but I don’t always close my eyes) to be polite but it does not signify an expression of faith in a deity. 
The acts are inconsequential if they are not founded on the reasoning that this is the right of it (for me).   I may greatly enjoy meeting a man who can wield a whip, but the relationship is much more satisfying if he knows how to wield the authority I have ceded to him.



slaveluci -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/8/2007 8:55:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita
what do you think would have been different about the way you express your submissiveness or dominance if you’d never been introduced to others into BDSM and some of the ‘norms’ that come with it for other lifestylers?  Do you think it would be less satisfying?  More satisfying?  Just as satisfying but very different?  Just as satisfying and not any different?  Looking forward to seeing what others think.

Just as satisfying and no different.  I don't interact with other "lifestylers" (hate that word) as a rule.  We don't do munches or public play and neither of us have any desire to.  So, I guess you could say I've never really been "introduced to others into BDSM" and their "norms" per se except through reading I've done (books and sites such as this).

The effect that others ways or "norms" have on us isn't much except alot of the stuff we read just makes us more thankful for how we have it versus the nonsense that so many deal with/experience.  I'm not naturally submissive to everyone but that's how I feel with Him.  We interact in the most pleasing, satisfying ways that work for us and what others do or say really has zero influence.  Our "norms" are ALL that matter to us and I can't see that ever changing.  Sadly, I think so many out there who look into entering a D/s or M/s relationship simply care too much about what others think or do to their detriment.  It's just like any relationship (BDSM or vanilla).  Do what works for you not others....................luci



BossyShoeBitch -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/8/2007 11:12:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

I think a lot about my first D/s type relationship (it was in the ‘vanilla world’, undefined, but still very D/s), and how I was before I discovered the labeled, semi-organized world of BDSM.  There are a lot of things that come pretty naturally to me now that wouldn’t have before I discovered this world and realized that there are certain norms and expectations (though I use those terms very loosely) of submissives and dominants.  Things like service, training, kneeling, protocols, discipline, outlandish toys, intense S&M (okay, some of those things are still kind of hard for me, but I still ‘get it’ with regard to their significance and role in D/s relationships).  I’m not saying all those things play a role in every relationship, but I’m just realizing that so many things I would have said WTF!?!? to and would have threatened my ‘empowered woman’ mantras before now seem natural. 
 
I came to CM seeking fulfillment of my desire to be dominated, and found a whole lot of stuff that sort of ‘comes with the territory’ that I now accept and often enjoy, but I’m sure I wouldn’t have arrived at on my own.   My first "dominant" was a natural alpha, got what he wanted, totally dominated me and kept me in my place without any of the kneeling, protocols, kinky toys (besides a short piece of rope sometimes and some light spanking with hands and household items), titles, grand demonstrations of authority/submission, negotiated limits or power transfers etc., and we were both ecstatically happy, things flowed totally naturally and undefined.   He just had complete, unconditional power over me sexually, and I did whatever I could to make him happy in and out of the bedroom without ever being commanded to because he exuded an overpowering natural dominance that drew me to him, and that in its self encouraged my submissiveness.
 
So, my question to everyone is, what do you think would have been different about the way you express your submissiveness or dominance if you’d never been introduced to others into BDSM and some of the ‘norms’ that come with it for other lifestylers?  Do you think it would be less satisfying?  More satisfying?  Just as satisfying but very different?  Just as satisfying and not any different?  Looking forward to seeing what others think.

Tigrita,  Once again your post feels like you were totally in my head, reading my mind.  I entered my first D/s relationship when I was 18.  It was, like your's, also vanilla but very D/s. Back then I thought I was madly in love but I realize now that I was definitely  in sub frenzy.  I didn't find anything remotely like that again until I met a sub on Yahoo and he told me about this site.  I think constantly about all I've read, learned, seen and experienced since finding CM and my views on all of it now versus years ago.

quote:

  I’m just realizing that so many things I would have said WTF!?!? to and would have threatened my ‘empowered woman’ mantras before now seem natural.

This is the exact thought I have been mulling over for the past week myself.  One example that comes to mind is this past weekend.  I was with Michael early Sunday morning when I found out my Uncle had passed away.  I spent a few unproductive hours between the phone with my family and the computer trying to arrange travel plans for all of us, all without knowing what day the funeral was to be held.  I was truly frazzled , bouncing off the walls and really just spinning my wheels wasting time.  Michael gave me the time he knew I needed to spin my wheels a bit, and then he had me kneel next to him, put my head down on his lap and told me not to speak.  Of course being the good girl I am, I did just that.  As Michael stroked my hair, a feeling of calm washed over me and all the voices and thoughts running through my mind were quieted. No, not THOSE kind of voices.  The kind of voices that plague a multi-tasking, control freak PTA mom with ADD.  (The same sort of calm washes over me when he will sometimes tell me (usually at a restaurant) to sit with my hands in my lap and my eyes cast downward.  It frees me from all of those thoughts constantly running through my mind, from always feeling like I have to be talking or playing with my phone, and allows me to just "be").  We then decided to get out of the house and see a movie.  But first he asked me if I needed a spanking.  I nodded and he took me into the backyard, bent me over a table and gave me a good, sound spanking among all the beautiful flowers, fruits and vegetables, and I was not allowed to speak.  I felt so peaceful. I was floating..


I realize while typing this that I, at times, have had similar experiences with my husband.  I would be upset and in a tizzy about something, maybe even trying to pick a fight with him, and sometimes he would take me tightly in his arms and hug me tightly.
I would begin to feel the same calm wash over me (I tell him that I melt when he does that, so I would ask him to "melt me").  But there was no power exchange in the relationship.  Neither of us had any idea about any of that. So oftentimes when the hug would end, the anxiety would soon return.  He sincerely tried to help calm me with suggestions or opinions that, in the context of a power exchange relationship would  have truly helped, but in the absence of PE, only made me more pissy.  No wonder the poor guy felt confused and unsure of our relationship.

And spanking?  6 months ago I would have just nodded and smiled politely if someone told me that getting a spanking was cathartic.  "That's your kink?  That's greattt!" I'd say, but I'd be thinking, "You're a bit nuts, aren't you?"



ExSteelAgain -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/9/2007 12:03:20 AM)

I found my way into bdsm type relationships years ago without finding the culture that went along with it until many years later. In the beginning I spanked, whipped with a belt and dominated with little technique or understanding of the submissive mind. I didn’t call myself a Dom either. Still I would mainly find women who gave into my rough ways. These types were attracted to me and I seemed to find them comfortable matches.

During this time, I was doing rudimentary bdsm things, but not in a dominating manner such as spacing out a girl to help her reach a submissive state. One girl wanted me to whip her with her homemade rope flogger and I thought neato and did it, but without thoughts of bonding with her, building her up or any of the things I do today.

I also viewed this type woman I played with as being weaker than women who didn’t give into their passions so eagerly. They were simply sluts and I was a slut connoisseur.

As I slowly began to learn the lifestyle and talk in depth with those involved, I learned the submissive mindset and gradually gained respect for these women who attracted me. I became a much better dominant type because I learned how the respected Doms would give subs just enough pain play or whatever instead of working a rough, mean domination. I learned how rules worked to create an erotic excitement and so on.
I discovered there was an art to all this. I no longer viewed women who gave into submission as sluts. Now they were special. It was all part of the lifestyle and they were not giving into their sexual, masochistic desires any more than I was giving into my sadistic ones. We needed each other and we also provided each other with respect that outsiders didn’t give us.    



shootingstar67 -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/9/2007 2:05:59 AM)

I am very very creative, maybe not talented but extremely creative.  I invented D/s  I invented games. I invented it all. Maybe someone else invented it too but not before me. (Not in my mind anyway ) I invented games you never hear about on the internet.

What interests me is how my Dominant will influence me eventually.



ownedgirlie -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/9/2007 3:13:35 AM)

BSB I am sorry to hear about your uncle.

What you described is very close to what I experienced with my Master when my Dad died last year.  The world just stops, doesn't it? And you find your center again.  I am glad you found that peace in the midst of the chaos.

As for the OP, I'm not involved in "lifestyle" stuff (I'm with you on that one, luci).  But had I not encountered sites such as this one, I would likely still think I was mentally ill (instead of just being a wacky wafer, or waffle, as peach likes to put it ).  I would likely still be submitting to the wrong kind of people (bullies) because I would not have come to understand my submission and its place in my life.  I would not have met my Master, since I met him on a BDSM internet venue, and I would very likely have continued the downward spiral I was riding as a result.

Oh yeah, and if anyone had told me I'd be doing some of the things I do know, I'd have either laughed hysterically or passed out in shock!  [8D]



hardbodysub -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/9/2007 7:20:14 AM)

I don't think I'd do anything differently. It's all about the individuals, and what works for them, in my opinion, and to hell with the norms, definitions, etc. that you refer to. The only thing they're good for is providing a common framework for large numbers of people to use when communicating in forums like this, and when seeking others of a common mind.



MasterShibari -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/9/2007 10:00:40 AM)

Hello Tigrita

I believe the rituals you have described, the semi-codified protocols that you’ve learned, are a way of keeping people who otherwise do not know each other that well safe when they engage in BDSM practices with each other.  For evidence, I point to the old leather guard community.  The terminology and procedure of the old leather guard community was practically sacred, you did not deviate from it.  If you did, it was easy to become outcast.  I believe this was put into practice to keep people safe.

If everything is codified, if everything is done within a preexisting structure, it is much easier to insure that everything and everyone is safe, sane, and consensual.  This is vitally important when you are playing with a person who you may not know particularly well.  While this is not as enforced as it used to be, I believe it still holds somewhat true.

When you are with someone who you know well, whom you have an established vanilla relationship with, with whom you have history, these things are easier to do away with.  If I had never met other life stylists, never learned the terminology and procedure they expect, then I imagine my BDSM relationships would be limited purely to my existing vanilla partners.  As it was in high school, when I kept finding out the girls I was dating or interested in were kink friendly only AFTER the courtship had begun.

So to answer your question, if not for the procedure and protocol, I would never have found a partner outside my existing world.  I would never have considered meeting a girl at a munch and taking her to my house, negotiating limits and desires and then playing out a scene.  Hell, I never would have met her, and then one of the great experiences of my life would never have happened.  Something that seems so simple now would probably never have happened

Of course, it is just a theory, and I am probably taking a great risk posting it here. –smiles-  I wish you all well on your journey, wherever it leads.

M. Shibari



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