RE: Court rules that pharmacists can refuse morning after pill (Full Version)

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GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Court rules that pharmacists can refuse morning after pill (11/11/2007 1:16:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes

Honestly, the only treatment I sought was to make sure that I hadn't contracted anything.  Personally, I figured that if I got pregnant from it, then at least something positive would come out of something horrible.  However, not all people feel that way - not all people can feel that way after being violated in such a manner ... and not everyone has a doctor/pharmicist that they go to regularly.  Up until recently, I didn't.


In the case of a rape, (shudder) honestly, My first instinct would not be to call My doctor (regular or not) or drive to the drugstore.    I would be calling the police and make sure I was taken to the hospital, or get Myself to a hospital emergency room and  let them call the police.  But that is just Me.  I admit I do not relate easily to the idea of keeping something like that to Myself and just trying to take care of it on My own.  I realize this does happen, as you can obviously attest, but I would hope it is not very common. 




SweetDommes -> RE: Court rules that pharmacists can refuse morning after pill (11/11/2007 1:25:25 AM)

looking back, the way I handled it was ... well ... about as wrong as it can get.  But I did survive it (thankfully), and didn't catch anything either.  I certainly hope that other people learn from my stupidity and do the right thing if/when it happens to them (go to the hospical and file a police report ... don't hide).




pinksugarsub -> RE: Court rules that pharmacists can refuse morning after pill (11/11/2007 5:14:18 AM)

Seems to me that various decisions under the interstate commerce clause would prohibit a practice of denying carriage to law abiding citizens on the grounds they had liquor on them.  i guess i wonder why these decisions didn't naturally extend to cover the dispensation of a legal drug to a patron of any pharmacy.  i have no idea what my pharmacy's position is, but i wonder how many will be cowed by anti-abortion groups into refusing to dispense?
 
pinksugarsub




farglebargle -> RE: Court rules that pharmacists can refuse morning after pill (11/11/2007 7:04:33 AM)

quote:

... he completely misses the point and I believe you do as well. I am approaching this from a philosophical viewpoint in regards to issues of freedom, personal choice, economics, and most importantly – government power.
Yes, both the pharmacy and the pharmacist must obey the regulations of the state or find another line of work. The question is how much regulatory power do we want the government to have? How much are we willing to let the government micro-manage our lives. In this particular case the questions are:

Who should decide what medicines a pharmacy should stock? The owner of the pharmacy who knows his customers and customer base and who is financially motivated to cater to his customers needs, or a government bureaucracy which is motivated by political concerns?


The Customer decides what medicines a pharmacy should stock, due to their demand for a particular medicine.

If a Customer comes in and requests XYZ, and the pharmacy doesn't have it, the Pharmacy has FAILED under the rules of the Free Market, and to keep the market vital, should wither and go out of business.

Now, this is all complicated by some confusion about "The Pharmacy", and it's owners.

Now, if a Pharmacy is owned by a Natural Person, and isn't Incorporated under the rules of The State ( and therefore VOLUNTARILY SUBJECT to Regulation ) then what that Natural Person chooses to do with their asset ( The Pharmacy ) is their choice.

ONCE YOU VOLUNTEER TO BE REGULATED, HOWEVER, either by being an Artificial Legal Entity and/or a Licensed Pharmacist/Entity, then it's over. It's time to STFU-And-Do-Your-Job-Or-Find-A-Different-Job.

So, if you don't want to be regulated, DON'T VOLUNTEER TO BE REGULATED.

And don't fucking whine about it after the fact.





CuriousLord -> RE: Court rules that pharmacists can refuse morning after pill (11/11/2007 8:07:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Do you know about the case involving Islamic cab-drivers in Minneapolis who refuse to drive passengers carrying liquor?

http://www.nysun.com/article/41264

You'd say that they should be permitted to service or not service anyone they damn well please, right?  After all, who told those poor innocent cab-drivers that they might occasionally have to drive people carrying liquor?


Isn't the case I'm pointing out more of -what kind of service-?  As in, it's not that they're not servicing people with pink T-shirts or green headbands, but they're not selling an abortion pill.




Marc2b -> RE: Court rules that pharmacists can refuse morning after pill (11/11/2007 8:31:28 AM)

quote:

This is how we will lose our privacy and reproductive rights; not with a bang but a whimper.


Throughout history most rights have been lost not with a bang but a whimper. The whimper in question usually comes from a frightened populace voluntarily handing over their freedom in hope of an exchange for security. As has been previously noted, they usually get neither freedom or security.

quote:

Plan B should be over-the-counter but the FDA caved to pressure from the Far Right.

 
Agreed on both counts but fear not. I believe that it eventually will be over the counter. Religious fundamentalist can carp about the MAP all they want – the genie is out of the bottle and genies rarely go back in.




Marc2b -> RE: Court rules that pharmacists can refuse morning after pill (11/11/2007 8:42:06 AM)

quote:

Oh, you say it so much better than I!


Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you.  Really I was!  I laughed out loud when I read that.  Oh well, enough of this mutual admiration society.  Back into the fray.




Marc2b -> RE: Court rules that pharmacists can refuse morning after pill (11/11/2007 8:58:16 AM)

quote:

I'm not reading the whole thing through, but I do have this to say.

If I had gone to a doctor or pharmacist after any of my rapes, tried to get the morning-after pill, and been refused ... I would have most likely committed suicide - how is that a good thing for the potential baby? I know someone who did that, and know of many others. I'm sorry, but my mental health was bad enough without being refused treatment. If I kill myself (or another potential mother kills herself), then the baby dies anyway, and any future children that might be had lose their chance as well.

Forcing someone to go against their morals isn't right, but neither is refusing treatment to someone.


First off, as the son of one rape victim, the uncle of another and the friend of the third, allow me to express my condolences on being victimized in such a brutal and evil manner. Such males (they have no right to call themselves men) are a shame to real men. As human beings I believe that we have a duty to put reason over emotion but rape is one case where I have a difficulty doing so. Personally, I would like to see every convicted rapist stripped naked, his hands cuffed behind his back, and chained by his balls to the back of a pick-up truck. Then we give the keys to the pick-up truck to his victim. Let’s see how fast they can run.

As noted, however, a rape victim’s first stop should be the hospital and I think it unlikely that they would be unable to get the MAP if needed. Of course, a rape victim may not be thinking clearly but the problem here is that there are exceptions to almost everything. This harks back to the "one size fits all" problem of regulations. A perfect society is unattainable and attempts to make it so do more harm than good. Therefore, the perfect is the enemy of the good.




Lordandmaster -> RE: Court rules that pharmacists can refuse morning after pill (11/11/2007 9:34:16 AM)

Actually, no, they don't have a right to refuse service.  As of now, they lose their license for 30 days for the first offense, and have it revoked for two years for a second offense.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/04/16/america/NA-GEN-US-Muslim-Cabbies-Alcohol.php

We don't live in the Wild Wild West.  If you're going to be a taxi driver, you take customers carrying alcohol--or you don't become a licensed taxi driver.  If you're going to be a pharmacist, you offer the morning-after pill--or you don't become a licensed pharmacist.  If your moral standards prevent you from performing a certain job, don't take that job.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Do you know about the case involving Islamic cab-drivers in Minneapolis who refuse to drive passengers carrying liquor?

http://www.nysun.com/article/41264

You'd say that they should be permitted to service or not service anyone they damn well please, right?  After all, who told those poor innocent cab-drivers that they might occasionally have to drive people carrying liquor?



*Shrug*  If they are self employed, whether renting their vehicle at a set shift rate from a provider, or privately owning their vehicle, they have the right to refuse service.




Marc2b -> RE: Court rules that pharmacists can refuse morning after pill (11/11/2007 9:38:42 AM)

quote:

The Customer decides what medicines a pharmacy should stock, due to their demand for a particular medicine.

If a Customer comes in and requests XYZ, and the pharmacy doesn't have it, the Pharmacy has FAILED under the rules of the Free Market, and to keep the market vital, should wither and go out of business.


The pharmacy has not failed under the rules of the free market. The pharmacy has just learned something and now must decide how to respond. Should they stock XYZ for only one customer? Could this one customer represent the start of a new trend? Decisions, decisions. No, this is not a failure of the free market, this is the free market in action.

quote:

Now, this is all complicated by some confusion about "The Pharmacy", and it's owners.

Now, if a Pharmacy is owned by a Natural Person, and isn't Incorporated under the rules of The State ( and therefore VOLUNTARILY SUBJECT to Regulation ) then what that Natural Person chooses to do with their asset ( The Pharmacy ) is their choice.

ONCE YOU VOLUNTEER TO BE REGULATED, HOWEVER, either by being an Artificial Legal Entity and/or a Licensed Pharmacist/Entity, then it's over. It's time to STFU-And-Do-Your-Job-Or-Find-A-Different-Job.

So, if you don't want to be regulated, DON'T VOLUNTEER TO BE REGULATED.

And don't fucking whine about it after the fact.


So we are not living in a democratic republic and have no say in how our government regulates us? Just shut the fuck up and do what the government tell us? If the government changes the regulations on us, we are to have no recourse? A strangely submissive attitude for a purportedly free people. I for one am a citizen of this country and if the government is doing something I consider wrong, I will make my voice heard because I AM PART OF THIS GOVERNMENT. Agreeing to abide by a regulatory body’s authority does not mean you agree to have no say in affecting change in that regulatory body’s authority. I have to ask, if the situation were not government telling pharmacies what drugs to stock but rather, the government instituting a draft in order to send more troops to Iraq – would your attitude still be "shut the fuck up and do as your told."?

Let’s cut through all the bullshit here. There are some people who want the MAP available to them whenever they request it. For the most part it is available. Still, there will be some (rare) cases where somebody will walk into a pharmacy and be refused because the pharmacy doesn’t stock it due to either market considerations and/or moral objections. Rather than just shrugging their shoulders, saying "your loss," and heading out the door to another pharmacy, this somebody arrogantly presumes a right to be catered to by society and demands that the government trample over the freedoms and rights of other people in order to rig the situation to their benefit. Kind of like that guy who couldn’t get cell phone service down by the harbor and so demands that the government mandate universal cell coverage.




dcnovice -> RE: Court rules that pharmacists can refuse morning after pill (11/11/2007 9:43:06 AM)

quote:

*Shrug*  If they are self employed, whether renting their vehicle at a set shift rate from a provider, or privately owning their vehicle, they have the right to refuse service.... I hope you are not saying, L&M, that the drivers or a company's drivers should be forced to take on any passenger(s) just because they need a cab.


Here in D.C., many cabbies reportedly refuse to pick up African Americans because the drivers fear that the passengers will want to go to undesirable locations. Is that acceptable?




dcnovice -> RE: Court rules that pharmacists can refuse morning after pill (11/11/2007 9:44:49 AM)

quote:

Kind of like that guy who couldn’t get cell phone service down by the harbor and so demands that the government mandate universal cell coverage.


I'm not sure I see medicine and "cell phone service down by the harbor" as really analogous.




Marc2b -> RE: Court rules that pharmacists can refuse morning after pill (11/11/2007 9:49:24 AM)

quote:

I'm not sure I see medicine and "cell phone service down by the harbor" as really analogous.


I’m harking back to a debate on another thread, one I think fargonebagle will remember (but I could be wrong, he is pretty far gone). The commonality is my exasperation with people who’s first notion, when something in their life isn’t meeting their expectations, is to go crying to the government.




camille65 -> RE: Court rules that pharmacists can refuse morning after pill (11/11/2007 9:53:05 AM)

Since you seem to be fond of the ridiculous, let me try.What about a pharmacist that doesn't believe in the use of serious pain medication because of a possible potential of addiction?*poor cancer patient just has to suck it up right?* Or the pharmacist that thinks depression is simply lack of will to change?Maybe you get a pharmacist that thinks diabetics need to just lose weight and exercise more? It is not up to the pharmacist to decide whether or not the patient 'deserves' the medication prescribed by a doctor. If they work for a chain, I think they should find another job. If they work for a private pharmacy then the customer needs to find another pharmacy.If a big company wants to take the stance of letting their pharmacists pick and choose who to fill prescriptions for? Then I hope they get sued into oblivion.




Lordandmaster -> RE: Court rules that pharmacists can refuse morning after pill (11/11/2007 9:54:47 AM)

Look, if cell-phone companies are systematically discriminating against people who live in a certain area, they SHOULD be forced to provide broader coverage.  But the whole example is irrelevant (aside from the fact that you can't even remember the details of the conversation you're alluding to).

One thing that's really striking about this thread is how people are bringing in examples that don't seem to have anything to do with anything.  Nurses masturbating their patients?  Universal cell-phone service?  What the hell?  Yes, I understand that the debate pits those of us who believe that crucial services need to be regulated in civil society against those who believe in a blissfully unregulated market.  Message received, loud and clear.  Now can we please keep nurses who are required to masturbate their patients and government-mandated universal cell-phone service where they belong: in Never-Neverland?




dcnovice -> RE: Court rules that pharmacists can refuse morning after pill (11/11/2007 9:55:21 AM)

quote:

The commonality is my exasperation with people who’s first notion, when something in their life isn’t meeting their expectations, is to go crying to the government.


I understand your frustration. What alternative recourse would you suggest to someone whose pharmacist refuses to see her legal, FDA-approved medicine?




Tantriqu -> RE: Court rules that pharmacists can refuse morning after pill (11/11/2007 9:56:05 AM)

I have no problem with pharmacists refusing to dispense such medication; as long as
1.  all their Viagra bottles and such profits are forcibly removed from their premises and
2.  they will financially support the pregnancies and adopt all the unwanted/abused children that result
to prove they're not hypocrites.




popeye1250 -> RE: Court rules that pharmacists can refuse morning after pill (11/11/2007 9:59:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

GoddessDustyGold said:

quote:

And I'm a smoker!
Actually, it is amazing how much less mail I get now that I don't fall into the preferred age parameters of so many profile surfers!


Now I don’t feel so bad about being a smoker myself.

Petronius said:

quote:

Actually it is very simple. The Republicans are whiners again. The druggist is the person who started opposing freedom: the freedom of any person to sell whatever drugs they want and make a profit on it. The druggist doesn't want the local bodega owner to have that freedom; the druggist wants a monopoly, awarded by the state, that significantly reduces competition, and significantly raises his salary. Then, when he gets the monopoly that blocks the freedoms of others, he whines when people actually want him to do the job he was given the monopoly to do.


"Licencing" has been used to restrict competition for ages.

quote:

If you can't do the work of a druggist for moral reasons don't be a druggist. If you're a Jehovah's Witness who doesn't believe in blood transfusions, don't insist on your right to become a surgeon while demanding that you be permitted to skip transfusions. If you think that Black people are the spawn of Satan, don't ask to become a cop and then insist on your moral right to ignore helping crime victims if they're black. etc. etc.

It really is simple: if you accept government regulation to benefit yourself and hurt the other citizens, don't complain about the regulation.


When fargonebagle comes bellowing in with...

quote:

Keep in mind that PHARMACISTS are LICENSED by the State.

You either: (1) Do what the State fucking tells you to do..

OR

(2) Surrender your Pharmacist License, and find a different line of work.

No-one held a gun to their heads and forced them to beg for a license.


... he completely misses the point and I believe you do as well. I am approaching this from a philosophical viewpoint in regards to issues of freedom, personal choice, economics, and most importantly – government power.
Yes, both the pharmacy and the pharmacist must obey the regulations of the state or find another line of work. The question is how much regulatory power do we want the government to have? How much are we willing to let the government micro-manage our lives. In this particular case the questions are:

Who should decide what medicines a pharmacy should stock? The owner of the pharmacy who knows his customers and customer base and who is financially motivated to cater to his customers needs, or a government bureaucracy which is motivated by political concerns?

Who should set the work place rules? Again, the pharmacy owner, with an eye toward profit and a good public image or a government bureaucracy that wont suffer the consequences of it’s decisions?

The problem with regulations is that they attempt to make one size fit all. But one size doesn’t fit all. Pharmacy A – located next to the retirement home – may have no need stock the MAP because nobody’s buying it, whilst pharmacy B – located next to the university – can barely keep the stuff on the shelves. Do we want the government dictating to pharmacy A that it must stock a non-profitable item?

But it is not just business considerations. There is simply the fact that different people have different views, beliefs, etc. Concerning a employees moral objections to dispensing the drug, pharmacy owner A might say "then take a fucking hike ya Jesus freak!" Pharmacy owner B might say, "I respect your belief – if someone comes in with a prescription for the MAP, ask me or the other pharmacist on duty to do it." Why do we want the government interjecting itself into a private matter between two people?

There are times when the government has a legitimate reason, even duty, to override people’s personal choices for the greater good but such times are actually quite rare (although the government would never have you believe that) and I just don’t see this time as one of them.

It just leaves a sour taste in my mouth when people’s first response to a problem (real or perceived) is to run to the government.

I do, however, think that the government should mandate that all young pretty female nurses provide sexual services to their male patients. "Gee, do you really think I’m well enough to go home, Doc? I think I should stay one more night, just to be safe."


Marc, well said.
We are paying the people in *our* government to run our government not to be *dictating* to us.
With freedom comes responsibility. (I know, not a popular word to use these days.)
If one drug store owner chooses not to sell the MAP just go to one that does and leave it at that.
As for rape I'm a stern defender of our Second Amendment Rights.
And ladies, never carry a gun in your purse! It's too easy to get it away from you.




dcnovice -> RE: Court rules that pharmacists can refuse morning after pill (11/11/2007 10:02:15 AM)

quote:

all their Viagra bottles and such profits are forcibly removed from their premises


Interestingly enough, controversy tends not to arise around drugs needed by men. I'm sure that's just a coincidence.




farglebargle -> RE: Court rules that pharmacists can refuse morning after pill (11/11/2007 10:47:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

The Customer decides what medicines a pharmacy should stock, due to their demand for a particular medicine.

If a Customer comes in and requests XYZ, and the pharmacy doesn't have it, the Pharmacy has FAILED under the rules of the Free Market, and to keep the market vital, should wither and go out of business.


The pharmacy has not failed under the rules of the free market. The pharmacy has just learned something and now must decide how to respond. Should they stock XYZ for only one customer? Could this one customer represent the start of a new trend? Decisions, decisions. No, this is not a failure of the free market, this is the free market in action.



I agree that's the way it should happen. Regulation gets in the way. That aside, the pharmacy now has an ADDITIONAL legal requirement to fulfill should they chose to not provide the medicine.

They need to keep a list of pharmacies which DO, and where they are located. That information must be made available to any customer. Failure means that they do not enjoy any sort of legal immunity.

It *may be* easier from a records keeping requirement to just sell the damn thing.

quote:



quote:

Now, this is all complicated by some confusion about "The Pharmacy", and it's owners.

Now, if a Pharmacy is owned by a Natural Person, and isn't Incorporated under the rules of The State ( and therefore VOLUNTARILY SUBJECT to Regulation ) then what that Natural Person chooses to do with their asset ( The Pharmacy ) is their choice.

ONCE YOU VOLUNTEER TO BE REGULATED, HOWEVER, either by being an Artificial Legal Entity and/or a Licensed Pharmacist/Entity, then it's over. It's time to STFU-And-Do-Your-Job-Or-Find-A-Different-Job.

So, if you don't want to be regulated, DON'T VOLUNTEER TO BE REGULATED.

And don't fucking whine about it after the fact.


So we are not living in a democratic republic and have no say in how our government regulates us?


It's called "VOTING". Corporations DO NOT HAVE THE VOTE, therefore they don't get a voice in how the country is run.

That was a conscious choice made by the investors. To give up that right in exchange for the benefits and privileges of being an Incorporated Entity.

It's too damn late for them to be whiny bitches and bemoan their shitty choices.


quote:


Just shut the fuck up and do what the government tell us?


Yeah, that was part of their application to the Secretary of State for permission to form a Corporation.

quote:


If the government changes the regulations on us, we are to have no recourse?


What do you mean, "WE"? Are you an Artificial Legal Entity? If not, then why should you care how a subordinate race ( Corporations ) are treated under the Law?

Do you suffer from "Natural Person's Guilt"?

I've just truncated the remaining text, as it just continues to demonstrate the confusion between "REAL PEOPLE" and "ARTIFICIAL LEGAL ENTITIES".





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