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RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/12/2007 3:27:11 AM   
IrishMist


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quote:

Its his way or the highway.  I have two choices, obey or leave.

That's pretty much the way my relationship was; his way or the highway.

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RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/12/2007 5:30:23 AM   
littlebitxxx


Posts: 732
Status: offline 		That, Mr ResidentSadist, defines a good fitting and "right" relationship, in my opinion.  If I desired to be a slave to someone he had better have earned my trust enough just to be with him.  Vanilla relationships, D/s, M/s...all have a measure of trust and caring but to different degrees.  Even after over 20 years of nilla marriage, I would never have trusted my ex to the degree that I trust my Jarl.  I could never have given the ex total control and authority of my mind and body.  Being in love of course meant he held the strings of my heart but that was about it.  And therein lies the crux of the difference between nilla and M/s, as far as I'm concerned.  With my Jarl, I not only have given him my heart but through the negotiation period, through the consideration period, through the exploring of each other I also know I can give him my body to use with complete confidence that it will not be abused and misused without good reason.  Your example of asking for a baby finger was spot on.  If my Jarl wished that specific body modification, I would have no hesitation.  If he wished anything that others would consider harmful, I would have no hesitation...I believe he would have a good reason for it.  If nothing else, just to prove that I am His.  That is well within his rights.  After all, nose rings, brands, tattoos, piercings...all are patently harmful body mods yet all seem to be considered acceptable.

I believe that if the relationship is a "right" one, there can be total PE.  And yes, it is something of an exchange.  I give over my self totally, body heart and mind and receive guidance, caring, protection, loyalty, etc etc in return.  My Jarl and I are Free Companions which is slightly different than a "typical" bdsm style M/s relationship but because our relationship is built on mutual trust, respect for each other's honour and integrity, it has developed into a deep love.  With my body for use and my heart to hold, I can full well agree to give him my mind to control.  If I cannot trust him to control it wisely, why would I be with him in the first place?  If the relationship is a good one, where the fit is right, and the trust and respect is there, I fully believe that there can be a 'no-limit' experience. 

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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/12/2007 6:08:26 AM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
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From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlebitxxx
et. al.

Dearest sage,
Thank you for posting your concise reply and sharing the core of your heart and motivation.  I am in accord with what you say, successful TPE requires complete trust and commitment. 

Best wishes to you and Jarl.

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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/12/2007 6:19:08 AM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline 		-=Fast Reply=-

As the slave, it is not my role to limit what my Master does.

As the Master, it is his responsibility to limit what he does in order to protect the physical and emotional well being of his property.

When I say I have no limits, what I mean by that is I will never say "no" to him, and if I do say "no" I will expect to be punished or otherwise made to obey.  However that doesn't mean I will do anything in the world - it simply means I will do what he wants me to do.

No Limits slavery and no limits Mastery are two entirely different concepts.  The idea of a Master with no limits scares me - it means he has no concern for his slave's well being.  A slave with no limits is a redundancy - what is a slave if not someone who is owned completely by another?

There are certain things that would totally destroy me emotionally - being shared with other men, or him bringing home other women for example.  My Master and I have discussed this though...and I no longer feel the need to make an ultimatum of "if you do this I will leave" - in fact I feel foolish for ever having said that in the first place.  My Master loves me.  He owns me and he wants to protect his investment.  All I really needed to say was "if you do this it will hurt me more than anything" and have enough trust in him that he will do what is best for me.

I think so many people get caught up in the semantics game - they hear 'no limits' and think 'anything goes' but really a slave with no limits is just half of the equation.  What they really need to ask is what limits the Master has - the slave can't do anything harmful to herself if the Master forbids it.

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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/12/2007 6:44:23 AM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrescentLuna
However, I think that TPE is just a newer form of an old ideal, the true(tm) Master and slave (or Mistress and slave), the ones that work perfectly because the slave never questions an order because they're a "real" slave and the one in charge never makes a mistake because a "real" mistress knows everything about their slave to avoid making a mistake.


I don't see TPE as me blindly accepting everything or never fighting.  Sometimes I fight just for the fun of it - he likes subduing me too   The point of TPE is that his will supercedes my own - by any means necessary.  That might be as simple as me saying "yes my Lord" or as difficult as him holding me down by force, but the basic idea is I won't run off to the cops and cry rape because he made me do something...and that's why it takes trust on both ends.

Also it's ridiculous to think a slave can't speak up.  I speak up all the time.  Really though it's the way you say something.  For example if my Master wanted to put a giant dildo in me and I thought it would be too big to fit, I wouldn't say "oh hell no that thing is not going in me" because that would NOT help my situation  

However if I said something like "Master I'm scared, that looks really big, will you please try to be gentle" I think he would be more likely to listen. While it will ultimately be his decision, voicing my concerns in a respectful manner isn't something he would punish me for.

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Profile   Post #: 105
RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/12/2007 7:25:59 AM   
ResidentSadist


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From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi
No Limits slavery and no limits Mastery are two entirely different concepts.  The idea of a Master with no limits scares me - it means he has no concern for his slave's well being.  A slave with no limits is a redundancy - what is a slave if not someone who is owned completely by another?

A Master without limits is bad and they would have no concern for the slave but a slave without limits is good/redundant?  That seems a bit sexist when taken at face value, even though you explain the trust issue.  A slave has the ability to break a Master’s heart as well you know. 

To me, the end of mutual limitations means both will do anything to serve the relationship, including that which may have been a self imposed limit in the past.  I would think one might find a Master without limits very appealing?

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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/12/2007 7:32:59 AM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline 		Quick reply:

I don't much care for the term TPE. We don't exchange anything, he exerts his power(authority, control, influence) over me. It is a dictatorship. Generally benevolent as someone else said but a dictatorship none the less.

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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/12/2007 7:40:07 AM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline 		I didn't mean a Master who would limit his devotion to the relationship.  I meant a Master needs to be aware of what will be damaging to his slave and limit his orders to things that won't harm her physically or emotionally.

When I say a Master without limits I was thinking along the lines of one who would order his slave to do things that are harmful or illegal.  Just to use an example - the idea of a Master prostituting his slave.  For most Masters that would be a limit because it is potentially physically and emotionally harmful to the slave, however some slaves might get off on the idea, so other Masters wouldn't consider it a limit.

It's up to the Master to limit the activities involved to ones that won't seriously damage the slave.  A Master who has no concept of limitations and who will do anything to anyone that he owns, without considering the individual personalities and even physical abilities of the slave, in my mind is not fit to be a Master.  And it's not even a matter of making someone do extreme things - if a Master is with a masochistic slave and he forbids any type of sadomasochistic play at all, ever, he is emotionally harming his slave.

I'm sure there are some people who might find a no limits Master appealing...until the Master decides that he's bored with the slave and orders her to kill herself because her service to him is complete and she has no other value besides that

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Profile   Post #: 108
RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/12/2007 8:23:01 AM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
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From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi
…I'm sure there are some people who might find a no limits Master appealing...until the Master decides that he's bored with the slave and orders her to kill herself because her service to him is complete and she has no other value besides that
 
I would hope that a slave faced with the end of her service in death if she obeys or the end of her service if she disobeys would choose the least harmful in such a scenario.  Although I am sure that your scenario has warmed the hearts of any frustrated Master’s that have had bad relationships.  J
I just want you to know that I understand what you are saying and addressed the illegal, harmful and fatal issue in an earlier reply as well as the OP.  The presumption here is that if you are in a TPE framework, you should be there because you have trust.  That being said, it confuses me to hear you reiterate concerns that should be long resolved before a TPE exists.   

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/12/2007 8:41:26 AM   
Sakinah


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quote:

The point is these 'limit's if you will are completely negotiated PRIOR to the TPE not after.


people change, ideas wants and needs change...this is one of the biggest parts of life....

a Masters wants may very well change

now it is known what i will be put through cause he likes to give pain and i've never taken pain.
sounds horrendous yet at the same time some what has been read of and dreamed of ...shrugs
and to be honest i dont know what the limits are till they are pushed.

a great deal  is depending on the man doing the pushing and how much he masters me...

i could no doubt take alot just to know i was pleasing him ands he will take from me what he wants

limits are what He sets them at

well wishes

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 110
RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/12/2007 9:45:46 AM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

To me, the end of mutual limitations means both will do anything to serve the relationship, including that which may have been a self imposed limit in the past.  I would think one might find a Master without limits very appealing?


When I hear "a person without limits" I think "someone with no moral or ethical limits". And I will keep them as far away from me from possible, regardless if that person is submissive, master, slave, dominant or vanilla.

I will always have limits in that respect because there are some things I would rather kill Valyraen or myself than do or allow him to do unhindered to others. Do I think this is likely to come up? No, or I wouldn't be with him. But it doesn't change the fact that there are orders, however very unlikely - even to point where the chance is nil - I am to ever receive them, that I would never obey.

*shrugs* If you think that makes something amiss in my relationship with my owner, I can most certainly live with that.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to ResidentSadist)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/12/2007 10:54:54 AM   
ResidentSadist


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From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
I will always have limits in that respect because there are some things I would rather kill Valyraen or myself than do or allow him to do unhindered to others. Do I think this is likely to come up? No, or I wouldn't be with him. But it doesn't change the fact that there are orders, however very unlikely - even to point where the chance is nil - I am to ever receive them, that I would never obey.

*shrugs* If you think that makes something amiss in my relationship with my owner, I can most certainly live with that.

Dear aquatic,
Thank you so much for your reply.  I love it when someone goes right to the heart of the matter about limits by talking about the extremes where limits really come into play. 

It would be a great service to this thread if you would answer this question:

As unlikely as it would be, and taking into account that it would have to be some very bizarre and abnormal situation, if you were to receive orders that you chose not to follow for reasons of sanity, orders that broke your trust in his judgment, orders that cause you to supercede your will over his, would you end the relationship?  I mean, he gives the order and at the point that you refuse, doesn’t that break the trust?  Shouldn’t that be a signal that something is very wrong? 

…if so, this lends to the point of the OP and the reality of limits like “flying”.  A slave always has a choice and if there is trust, limits shouldn’t be an issue.  If there isn’t trust, there shouldn’t be a TPE.

< Message edited by ResidentSadist -- 11/12/2007 10:56:04 AM >

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RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/12/2007 11:03:11 AM   
agirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

quote:

ORIGINAL: phedre81
To the OP...so, if I say that under no circumstances will I play with unmentionables, does this mean I'm not cut out for TPE?


Dear phedre81,For TPE as I know it, it is important to define the reality of the exchange.  You said you “will” not do a certain thing. The reality of your statement is that your “will” supercedes mine.  Sounds like D/s not TPE to me.  Had your statement been posed in a submissive phrasing as a request, thus allowing me the power to choose, then it would have been TPE.  

You may be a perfect match for “TPE” with someone less demanding than me.  However, when I give/grant the wishes of my slave as I often do, it is at my will, not theirs.


 So D/s is spelling out that you * won't do* this, that or the other and M/s negates the need or desire to.

Basically...I trust you to do right by me. The trust to NOT need to mention limits. To not mention limits, you have to have done the *footwork* and the footwork is knowing what and who you've signed up to.

If I'm negotiating anything......then I'm not in a *TPE* OR an Authority transfer relationship.

agirl



(in reply to ResidentSadist)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/12/2007 11:05:13 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

As unlikely as it would be, and taking into account that it would have to be some very bizarre and abnormal situation, if you were to receive orders that you chose not to follow for reasons of sanity, orders that broke your trust in his judgment, orders that cause you to supercede your will over his, would you end the relationship?  I mean, he gives the order and at the point that you refuse, doesn’t that break the trust?  Shouldn’t that be a signal that something is very wrong? 

…if so, this lends to the point of the OP and the reality of limits like “flying”.  A slave always has a choice and if there is trust, limits shouldn’t be an issue.  If there isn’t trust, there shouldn’t be a TPE.


It would depend on exactly what the circumstances were and what strange order he gave. Given the selection of things I would not obey, yes the relationship would most likely be over. However, there are a few situations in which I would not withdraw submission/slavery but instead focus on helping him. Ex: If (for some bizarre situation) he became addicted to crack and was ordering me to steal to fund his addiction, I would feel he would be better served by me not obeying and doing what I can to get him help. If he cleaned up his act, or showed great determination to, I would not feel the need to end the relationship. Perhaps I would later down the line, but not right away.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to ResidentSadist)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/12/2007 1:12:40 PM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi
…I'm sure there are some people who might find a no limits Master appealing...until the Master decides that he's bored with the slave and orders her to kill herself because her service to him is complete and she has no other value besides that
 
I would hope that a slave faced with the end of her service in death if she obeys or the end of her service if she disobeys would choose the least harmful in such a scenario.  Although I am sure that your scenario has warmed the hearts of any frustrated Master’s that have had bad relationships.  J
I just want you to know that I understand what you are saying and addressed the illegal, harmful and fatal issue in an earlier reply as well as the OP.  The presumption here is that if you are in a TPE framework, you should be there because you have trust.  That being said, it confuses me to hear you reiterate concerns that should be long resolved before a TPE exists.   


They aren't concerns I have about TPE.  It was a direct answer to your question of why a Master should have limits.

I believe a Master should have limits because he is the one guiding the direction the relationship takes.  Once a TPE is established the Master can in theory order anything he wants.  I'm saying that just because he can, doesn't mean he should.  And I'm not just talking about insane things like killing yourself or having sex with animals or trying to make someone fly...it's more simple things like making sure you provide proper aftercare, or not moving too fast with experimental things, or not doing something just because you want to.

I think that's the crux of what I'm trying to say here.  A slave shouldn't limit the Master's desires.  However sometimes the Master has to limit his own desires if he values the relationship enough to keep it healthy.  If the couple tries something new, and the Master is turned on by it but the slave is completely traumatized for days, I would assume in a TPE it would be the Master who says "this is not something we should do again" rather than the slave.  That's what I mean by a slave with no limits, who would do it again if the Master ordered, but a Master who has limits and enforces them for both people's benefit.

This is just my opinion based on my personal morality that says it is wrong to do serious harm to another person - physically or emotionally.  Your morality may be different.

(in reply to ResidentSadist)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/12/2007 1:53:28 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cheeky1

quote:

In an M/s relationship the Master has final say.... and one of the hardest things for a slave is gracefully allow a decision to be made by the dominant that she/he things is the wrong decision.   This of course is after all the normal dialogue occurs between Master and slave before the decision is made. 
So, is this the essential boundary between dominants and masters? Masters have the final say in decisions? Slaves, no matter how smart they are, must "obey" who they choose as a master?


In my world... Masters have the final say.  Others have a different definition and therefore may provide a different answer.

But really what is critical... be called slave or submissive.. or is more important to under how the authority structure works in a given relationship.....  call me Master, Dom, Lord, Asshole, Arrogant Prick... it really doesn't matter... at the end of the day.. in my relationships with Alandra and Kyra... I have the final say in the decisions.


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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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Profile   Post #: 116
RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/12/2007 3:01:43 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: cheeky1

quote:

In an M/s relationship the Master has final say.... and one of the hardest things for a slave is gracefully allow a decision to be made by the dominant that she/he things is the wrong decision.   This of course is after all the normal dialogue occurs between Master and slave before the decision is made. 
So, is this the essential boundary between dominants and masters? Masters have the final say in decisions? Slaves, no matter how smart they are, must "obey" who they choose as a master?


In my world... Masters have the final say.  Others have a different definition and therefore may provide a different answer.

But really what is critical... be called slave or submissive.. or is more important to under how the authority structure works in a given relationship.....  call me Master, Dom, Lord, Asshole, Arrogant Prick... it really doesn't matter... at the end of the day.. in my relationships with Alandra and Kyra... I have the final say in the decisions.



I needed to be intelligent enough to choose to belong to someone that was going to make a good job of it. What's *smart* got to do with it?. No two people have the same intelligence criteria. I'm clever in some ways and utter shit in others.

KOM sums it up rather nicely, at least for me........ M has the final say whatever his *stupidity* level. It's all SO much simpler when you're actually doing it, honestly.

agirl

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/12/2007 3:08:15 PM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

 It's all SO much simpler when you're actually doing it, honestly.




Amen to that!

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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/12/2007 3:12:14 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Fast Reply to no one in particular....
 
I'm pressed for time and feeling a bit lazy today, so I'm copying and pasting a reply to the topic I made on another board:
 
As I see it, there are always three kinds of limits in existence, even in TPE relationships:

1. My own limits (everyone has inherent personal limits).

2. Her limits (everyone has inherent personal limits).

3. Legal limits, as far as you're willing to challenge them.

Bottom line, everyone has limits. It's just a matter of where they are. Everyone has something they will not do, cannot do, and cannot be made to do. It's not just an aversion, it's a limit.

Is it possible to act as if there are no limits? Sure, if you're willing to pay the price. Even if it's within your own limits, there would be a price to be paid for exceeding someone else's limits, or, at some point, for exceeding society's limits (ie: society is not gonna look the other way while you indulge your snuff fetish). You wanna dance all night, in the morning you have to pay the piper (that's the nature of responsibility). I believe they call those who ignore limits "anti-social" in a clinical sense.

TPE does not mean the absence of limits, or limitless control. It means the authority for complete control within the limits mentioned above.

John

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(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/12/2007 3:23:49 PM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline 		*nods*

No limits for me doesn't mean I have no personal limits.  It means that I place no limits on what my Master wants to do.  And the reason he is my Master is because we are compatible - I feel like I've found my soul mate.  I know that he might do things that I find painful or physically uncomfortable, but he would never harm or injure me.  I also know that I have the right to respectfully tell him how I feel about a certain act, and give my input (for example asking him to use a butt plug before anal sex because I've never done it and I don't want to tear something) but regardless of my opinion, the final decision is his.  And I wouldn't have it any other way

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Profile   Post #: 120
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