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RE: What is the essence of being human? - 11/19/2007 9:28:13 AM   
Raechard


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Status: offline 		What makes us human is the fact we question what makes us human.

I doubt you get goldfish wondering what makes them fish although to the best of my knowledge I’ve never been a goldfish so I can’t say for sure.

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RE: What is the essence of being human? - 11/19/2007 9:30:26 AM   
Raechard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
 Ant hills form a purpose other than to worship.

 
Does the individual ant know the overall purpose of such a structure or does it build it blindly without questioning why?

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RE: What is the essence of being human? - 11/19/2007 9:30:59 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

What makes us human is the fact we question what makes us human.

I doubt you get goldfish wondering what makes them fish although to the best of my knowledge I’ve never been a goldfish so I can’t say for sure.



Exactly.  You can't say 'for sure'.  Reality is, it is an unanswerable question - we can only surmise.  The one thing we do know that what makes us human is our genetic makeup and that's about it really - same goes for all species.
 
 
the.dark.

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RE: What is the essence of being human? - 11/19/2007 9:35:39 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
 Ant hills form a purpose other than to worship.

 
Does the individual ant know the overall purpose of such a structure or does it build it blindly without questioning why?



Unanswerable as we cannot say for sure that an ant isn't sentient.  But whether its blindly done or knowingly, doesn't confirm worship, merely that it could be that it's learnt behaviour or confirming it's build as protection.  It's not 'worshi[p' as humans understand, merely nurture which is different.  If an ant hill is disturbed, they will attack.  They will even remove eggs.  But they don't touch the queen, only fight to protect the 'home'.
 
 
the.dark.

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RE: What is the essence of being human? - 11/19/2007 9:40:37 AM   
Raechard


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Status: offline 		Yes I suspect it’s not worship as that is a human concept but we always seem to personify things to understand them in the context of the way we understand our roles in life.

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RE: What is the essence of being human? - 11/19/2007 10:11:52 AM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		"The one thing we do know that what makes us human is our genetic makeup and that's about it really - same goes for all species."
 
Nope-because I'll argue that a transplanted consciousness into a brain in a jar is still human.  And if we could figure out how to reproduce the human brain in silico- then that would be human as well.  The risk of that is that the in silico brain would likely have a very different logic than a human brain- and we'd probably wind up like Terminator III.  Before you say this is a reduction ad absurdam argument- that human programming wouldn't have developed without the human body- I'll fully agree.  Our thinking is very much dependent on what we are physically, but once developed-might not alter all that dramatically if transplanted.  We don't know.

Could this technology be useful?  How about for space exploration- take a human with memories and experiences- copy or move the consciousness into a brain in a jar- stick it on a spaceship- lots less room and supplies required- when it gets to something worthy of exploration- produce a cloned body- stick the consciousness in it.  Voila- human explorer-light years from home.  (Hmm, maybe I should write a story on this one.)

What make us human is our programming- and it doesn't matter whether it's in a silicon circuit or an organic circuit.  Better get used to the idea- we're already implanting circuitry into peoples heads for pacemakers.  Vision based on pixels on a chip implanted in the eye is in the lab (helping blind people see- at least something- which dramatically improves quality of life) as well as auditory implants, and means of controlling artificial limbs with neural impulses.  I'll bet blindness in 50 years will only be a financial problem. 
 
We're in trouble if our silicon programs ever "wake up"- a self aware computer is a very scary thing.


Sam  

< Message edited by samboct -- 11/19/2007 10:15:57 AM >

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RE: What is the essence of being human? - 11/19/2007 10:22:31 AM   
RCdc


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Genetics cause the shape of our bodies.  Our brains.  Therefore a transplanted human brain in a jar is still a transplanted human brain.

 
A brain made of silicon created exactly to the same dimensions with the same make up is still a brain.  Just not a human one.
 
Cloning is closer than ever and that day may come.  But place a computer into a human being, you don't have a human, you don't have a computer in essence - you have a hybrid that will have another name placed on it.  Same goes for consciousness.
 
the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 11/19/2007 10:25:36 AM >

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RE: What is the essence of being human? - 11/19/2007 10:33:45 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		Yet take away the programming and you still have a human. Children raised in the wild by pack animals have famously survived and returned to human settlements. They may remain lifelong outsiders but in all essentials are just like any of us. Oddly, humans who never leave packs often behave in a way which is far less "human".

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RE: What is the essence of being human? - 11/19/2007 10:40:54 AM   
charmdpetKeira


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< Message edited by charmdpetKeira -- 11/19/2007 10:41:57 AM >

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RE: What is the essence of being human? - 11/19/2007 10:57:34 AM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I wonder how many other species of animals fuck each other in the ass.  That sounds like a distinctly human invention.


Nope.  It's common actually.  Some biologists have been ruefully amused by recording the number of total mating attempts by males and comparing the biologically successful ones (male penis in female vagina) to the ones that aren't biologically successful (male penis in male anus, female anus, other portion of non reproductive anatomy or inanimate object).  In some species the former category is actually the smallest.

quote:

Oh and I'm sure other animals don't circumsize themselves.


In the sense you're thinking of, no, but there are some insects whose first mating attempt effectively accomplishes something very like that. 



< Message edited by Najakcharmer -- 11/19/2007 11:03:56 AM >

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RE: What is the essence of being human? - 11/19/2007 11:09:13 AM   
MissBabydoll


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Yet take away the programming and you still have a human. Children raised in the wild by pack animals have famously survived and returned to human settlements. They may remain lifelong outsiders but in all essentials are just like any of us. Oddly, humans who never leave packs often behave in a way which is far less "human".


Actually, this isn't true, unless you think that human language is not one of the "essentials." If the relevant areas of the brain are not stimulated continually in early infancy by exposure to human speech (especially mommy babytalk, which teaches babies phonemic patterns in ways that employ multiple forms of memory), the child never develops those areas. The result is a very smart hominid that is not a functional homo sapiens sapiens. I have a teenage cousin who had an undiagnosed cleft palate--the split was only in the back of the mouth--and when he got a cold at 8 weeks, the mucus drained into his eustachian tubes and blocked them when it congealed. The result was that he was mostly deaf through the next two-three months until My aunt's useless pediatrician figured it out. It has set him back hugely--major developmental delays in language acquisition, then reading and writing, and also socially. He has been mostly a fuckup in school. He is finally getting it together because he luckily has high spatial intelligence, which may have developed partly as compensation, so he is becoming a mechanic. And that was just a partial and very temporary blockage. A genetically human brain does not become a fully human brain without interaction with other humans in very early life.

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RE: What is the essence of being human? - 11/19/2007 11:13:20 AM   
bipolarber


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Status: offline 		Sam,

No need to write your story about the ship with the human brain in a jar... Anne McCaffrey did it back in the early 1960's. "The Ship Who Sang"  There was even a series of science fiction tales in the 1930's that followed the adventures of a Professor who died one day, and later woke up in an alien created artificial body... (sorry, I can't remember the name of the series, or the author... if it's important, I'll see if I can't look it up for you.) Arthur C. Clarke also used the idea in the "Rama" books... where the ship manufactures it's crew once it reaches it's destination...  The theme has been used countless times.


< Message edited by bipolarber -- 11/19/2007 11:18:18 AM >

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RE: What is the essence of being human? - 11/19/2007 11:58:04 AM   
Raechard


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Status: offline 		OK I’ve been thinking about this subject all day and came up with the answer that no one can dispute...
We wear clothes and animals don’t?

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RE: What is the essence of being human? - 11/19/2007 12:18:35 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

Can they conceptualize the future, and act on their projections? Not much evidence of that beyond just sensing winter coming on, and preparing for it.


Wolfe's research on chimpanzees would suggest that they can prepare for an unknown future.
IIRC, in the case of the token studies the subjects not only hoarded, they stole tokens from each other and exploited other animals to work for them.

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RE: What is the essence of being human? - 11/19/2007 12:22:15 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		I think it is in the opposing, prehensile thumb and the ability to spend money.

Ron

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RE: What is the essence of being human? - 11/19/2007 12:24:12 PM   
Alumbrado


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Status: offline 		You might want to read before posting.

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RE: What is the essence of being human? - 11/19/2007 12:26:45 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Believe I was in line with the OP, Alumbrado.

Ron

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RE: What is the essence of being human? - 11/19/2007 12:38:20 PM   
Alumbrado


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Status: offline 		So what are you saying? That Wolfe's study doesn't show animals spending money?

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RE: What is the essence of being human? - 11/19/2007 12:42:35 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Sorry old man, mine was a fastie.  While you are carrying on a reasoned conversation (and I did read the flow and the research), mine was a write by, and not aimed at you or casting asperisons on the research.

Ron 

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RE: What is the essence of being human? - 11/19/2007 12:47:39 PM   
Alumbrado


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Status: offline 		Sorry for the misunderstanding.

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